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Why would my IGF levels come down 40% on cycle?

alpha6164

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Before i started my current cycle of tren/prop/var i had baseline levels labs checked and my IGF-1 was 256. Currently i am on week 9 and had levels checked to see how things are overall and my IGF-1 is now 156. That is about a 40% reduction in IGF-1??? I am also taking Letro 1.25mg EOD, and Prami 0.5mg daily. I am trying to come up with a logical explanation and cant figure it out. Both labs were taken fasting at 8am so timing is not an issue either.
 
Before i started my current cycle of tren/prop/var i had baseline levels labs checked and my IGF-1 was 256. Currently i am on week 9 and had levels checked to see how things are overall and my IGF-1 is now 156. That is about a 40% reduction in IGF-1??? I am also taking Letro 1.25mg EOD, and Prami 0.5mg daily. I am trying to come up with a logical explanation and cant figure it out. Both labs were taken fasting at 8am so timing is not an issue either.

i believe is the letro, estrogens inhibitors tend to lower the bodys own ifg-1 levels...try something milder, like 1/2 pill of arimidex EOD.
 
Letro crushes Igf-1 levels.... Arimidex and Aromasin actually raise IGF-1 levels.
 
Low estrogen in general, can cause low igf-1.

Exactly... Letro kills 100% of any estrogen in the body of a man. Or woman for that matter.
IMO Letro is bes to use leading up to a show for drying out.
If you got gyno.... Get the shit cut out. Its gonna be there for life with or without AI's
 
Exactly... Letro kills 100% of any estrogen in the body of a man. Or woman for that matter.
IMO Letro is bes to use leading up to a show for drying out.
If you got gyno.... Get the shit cut out. Its gonna be there for life with or without AI's

I ran the letrozole protocol for getting rid of gyno last year and basically ran 1.25-2.5mg for weeks and at 2-3 weeks in my marbled sized lumps behind my nipples completely dissipated.

During this time I also had my estrogen levels checked after I was weeks into using Letro and the Doctor told me my levels came back in the normal range.

This leads me to believe that maybe letro is lowering your estrogen too much which is plummeting your IGF-1 levels. I read countless times how Nolvadex will impair one's IGF-1 levels, but never mentioned anything about aromatase inhibitors.

So perhaps you're just sensitive to the letro and should try aromasin or arimidex for estrogen control in the normal range. Me personally, those two didn't do squat for me when I tried lowering my estrogen just recently (was in the 200 range), so now I'm going back to the letro.
 
I had my estrdiol checked while on letro at 1.25mg a day and it was 25, if i remember correctly. So it doesnt completely wipe out estogen.
 
A lot of shit in this thread...

Letro crushes Igf-1 levels.... Arimidex and Aromasin actually raise IGF-1 levels.

No it doesnt, in this study showing Letro at 2.5mg/ED lowering IGF-1 by 15% after 28 days.


Low estrogen in general, can cause low igf-1.

Correct.

Estrogen is needed for GH and IGF synthesis.

Exactly... Letro kills 100% of any estrogen in the body of a man. Or woman for that matter.
IMO Letro is bes to use leading up to a show for drying out.
If you got gyno.... Get the shit cut out. Its gonna be there for life with or without AI's

No it doesnt, not in males (in most cases). Females, perhaps.

I have no idea where you read up on this type of thing, probably been reading others articles who havent properly referenced their claims, as you have not been doing your own research.

I had my estrdiol checked while on letro at 1.25mg a day and it was 25, if i remember correctly. So it doesnt completely wipe out estogen.

Correct.

The below study is on Aromasin at doses of 25mg/ED and 50mg/ED respectively, given to "healthy eugondal males".

Not females during stages of cancer...

According to some "articles" Aromasin "reduces estrogen by 80-90%" (Anthony Roberts aka. Anthony Conners).



harmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Nelly Mauras, John Lima, Deval Patel, Annie Rini, Enrico di Salle, Ambrose Kwok and Barbara Lippe

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977


Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.



"Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment." Which is one of the many many reasons I suggest user's of AAS use Aromasin at around 10mg/ED or EOD.
 
Swifto, I know you recommend Aromasin. But I was either running bunk aromasin or else I'm a nonresponder because after 2 months at 25mg a day my estrogen level was at 204! So I went to letro as I found it was effective in the past. Would you think 1.25mg ed would have a negligible effect on IGF-1 levels for someone running 2-4 ius of GH daily?
 
Swifto, I know you recommend Aromasin. But I was either running bunk aromasin or else I'm a nonresponder because after 2 months at 25mg a day my estrogen level was at 204! So I went to letro as I found it was effective in the past. Would you think 1.25mg ed would have a negligible effect on IGF-1 levels for someone running 2-4 ius of GH daily?

I use 1.25mg EOD very often and have not noticed a decrease In IGF1 levels myself. I will definitely keep an eye on them though.
 
I like the last paragraph...
And usually Sometimes ...(Yeah i use brologic)... or something that I have tried and discovered on my own.


Letrozole

Chemical Name: Femara
Drug Class: Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor

Letrozole is Novartis’ entry into the breast cancer treatment world. It’s a Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), which means that it competitively binds to the aromatase enzyme and inhibits the enzyme’s ability to metabolize testosterone into estrogen. This drug was developed to fight breast cancer by inhibiting the aromatization.

Letrozole is probably the most powerful Aromatase Inhibitor used by athletes today. It has been shown to reduce estrogen levels in women with breast cancer by 98% or more (1). SO clearly, it’s useful for administration to male steroid using athletes who are eager to prevent some of estrogen’s nastier effects on their bodies- development of breast tissue, water retention, etc…

When we take a look at its effects in men, Letrozole actually reduced estrogen in one test subject to undetectable levels (2). In another clinical study, intravenous administration of Letrozole (2.5mcg for 28 days), Letrozole lowered Estrogen by 46% in the young men tested, and 62% in the elderly subjects. In addition, Letrozole also significantly increased LH levels to a whopping 339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively and Testosterone by 146 and 99%, respectively. (3) Letrozole was also able to produce a peak LH response to Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone equal to a 152 and 52% increase from baseline in either young or older men, respectively.

As you can see, Letrozole is a very powerful drug, and as a result, only very tiny doses are necessary. An effective daily dose of Letrozole for most people is usually about .25-.5mg/day, even though clinically, it is typically used at 2.5mgs/day. Twenty micrograms of Letro was enough, in one study done on men, to reduce estrogen levels by almost a third. (4)

Letrozole’s effects on cholesterol are, really difficult to pin down precisely. They are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent.” I can tell you that in my opinion, reducing your bodies estrogen to virtually nothing, will eventually take its toll on your cholesterol profile, and will kill your sex drive and your joints- all of which require estrogen to function safely and effectively.

Even if you take very low doses of Letrozole, it will build up to reasonable blood plasma levels, as it has a 2-4 day half-life, and this long half life also means you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level (5), and that it will take a very long time to clear out of your system.

Letrozole is the only pharmacological “cure” for gyno that I know of to have ever worked in bodybuilders. In a study conducted on rodents, Letrozole was able to effectively destroy breast tissue tumors (6), and it’s also been effective on many bodybuilders who have used it to eliminate an existing case of gynocomastia. In my case, I used Letro to get rid of my own gyno, by starting with a dose of 2.5mgs/day and then lowering it by .25mcgs per week once my symptoms abated.

With regards to using this stuff on a cycle, unless you are extremely gyno prone, or need to reduce estrogen levels to virtually nothing (for a bodybuilding contest or whatever), it’s going to be too powerful for most people. Male and female competitors typically use it to get the last bits of estrogen related water retention out of them during the final weeks of contest preparation. But when used on a typical cycle, Letro is generally overkill unless a ripped look with zero water and estrogen is desired or if the user is prone to gyno.

References:

1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
 
I like the last paragraph...
And usually Sometimes ...(Yeah i use brologic)... or something that I have tried and discovered on my own.


Letrozole

Chemical Name: Femara
Drug Class: Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor

Letrozole is Novartis’ entry into the breast cancer treatment world. It’s a Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), which means that it competitively binds to the aromatase enzyme and inhibits the enzyme’s ability to metabolize testosterone into estrogen. This drug was developed to fight breast cancer by inhibiting the aromatization.

Letrozole is probably the most powerful Aromatase Inhibitor used by athletes today. It has been shown to reduce estrogen levels in women with breast cancer by 98% or more (1). SO clearly, it’s useful for administration to male steroid using athletes who are eager to prevent some of estrogen’s nastier effects on their bodies- development of breast tissue, water retention, etc…

When we take a look at its effects in men, Letrozole actually reduced estrogen in one test subject to undetectable levels (2). In another clinical study, intravenous administration of Letrozole (2.5mcg for 28 days), Letrozole lowered Estrogen by 46% in the young men tested, and 62% in the elderly subjects. In addition, Letrozole also significantly increased LH levels to a whopping 339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively and Testosterone by 146 and 99%, respectively. (3) Letrozole was also able to produce a peak LH response to Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone equal to a 152 and 52% increase from baseline in either young or older men, respectively.

As you can see, Letrozole is a very powerful drug, and as a result, only very tiny doses are necessary. An effective daily dose of Letrozole for most people is usually about .25-.5mg/day, even though clinically, it is typically used at 2.5mgs/day. Twenty micrograms of Letro was enough, in one study done on men, to reduce estrogen levels by almost a third. (4)

Letrozole’s effects on cholesterol are, really difficult to pin down precisely. They are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent.” I can tell you that in my opinion, reducing your bodies estrogen to virtually nothing, will eventually take its toll on your cholesterol profile, and will kill your sex drive and your joints- all of which require estrogen to function safely and effectively.

Even if you take very low doses of Letrozole, it will build up to reasonable blood plasma levels, as it has a 2-4 day half-life, and this long half life also means you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level (5), and that it will take a very long time to clear out of your system.

Letrozole is the only pharmacological “cure” for gyno that I know of to have ever worked in bodybuilders. In a study conducted on rodents, Letrozole was able to effectively destroy breast tissue tumors (6), and it’s also been effective on many bodybuilders who have used it to eliminate an existing case of gynocomastia. In my case, I used Letro to get rid of my own gyno, by starting with a dose of 2.5mgs/day and then lowering it by .25mcgs per week once my symptoms abated.

With regards to using this stuff on a cycle, unless you are extremely gyno prone, or need to reduce estrogen levels to virtually nothing (for a bodybuilding contest or whatever), it’s going to be too powerful for most people. Male and female competitors typically use it to get the last bits of estrogen related water retention out of them during the final weeks of contest preparation. But when used on a typical cycle, Letro is generally overkill unless a ripped look with zero water and estrogen is desired or if the user is prone to gyno.

References:

1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.

Just as I suspected, you cite and "article" written by that idiot Anthony Roberts. I didnt think you'de do that as I just mentioned him in the post above...

The abstract in study (1) does not cite whether subjects were male/female nor does it state the dose but the study is done on the "Aromatase inhibition: translation into a successful therapeutic approach." on breast cancer subjects, so I'd assume their female, with cancer. Which carries little to no translation to healthy eugondal males (me and you), which is what the study I cited does conclude.

I encourage you to check the references by authors and do your own research as the claim of "Letro crushing estrogen levels" may hold some water in female breast cancer patients, but it does in healthy eugondal males.

The same can be said about the numbers on Anastrozole and Exemestane.

I'm sorry, but the advice you have given is flat wrong.

Coming onto IGF, exogenous will increase IGF levels, some steroids more so than others and exogenous GH will also increase IGF levels (if you have proper GH). With the IGF reading given by the OP, I'd question your GH supplier.

SERMs and AI's lowering serum IGF are of little to no concern to use bodybuilders, on cycle and during PCT.
 
IGF-1 levels are influenced by many factors as we're aware of, as stated by others estrodiol/estrogen,exogenous/endogenous T levels, are contributing factors as is protein intake,diet restrictions, dairy intake influences IGF-1 levels,energy levels,the list goes on.

I would think if one was to check SHBG, and E2 levels along with IGF-1 and IGF-1BP
put the numbers together would give a better perspective of ones levels.

IMO Its estro related along with possibly diet.
 
Just as I suspected, you cite and "article" written by that idiot Anthony Roberts. I didnt think you'de do that as I just mentioned him in the post above...

The abstract in study (1) does not cite whether subjects were male/female nor does it state the dose but the study is done on the "Aromatase inhibition: translation into a successful therapeutic approach." on breast cancer subjects, so I'd assume their female, with cancer. Which carries little to no translation to healthy eugondal males (me and you), which is what the study I cited does conclude.

I encourage you to check the references by authors and do your own research as the claim of "Letro crushing estrogen levels" may hold some water in female breast cancer patients, but it does in healthy eugondal males.

The same can be said about the numbers on Anastrozole and Exemestane.

I'm sorry, but the advice you have given is flat wrong.

Coming onto IGF, exogenous will increase IGF levels, some steroids more so than others and exogenous GH will also increase IGF levels (if you have proper GH). With the IGF reading given by the OP, I'd question your GH supplier.

SERMs and AI's lowering serum IGF are of little to no concern to use bodybuilders, on cycle and during PCT.



No this article was written other than AR... I had read his and it was different.
Go on and do your thing bro... no worry's
I was just answering why this fella posted that his IGF-1 levels dropped 40% while on cycle.
Letro is the obvious reason.....
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. Reading all the replies it is obvious that it is pretty obvious to me that it is the Letro. If one study showed a 15% reduction just in 28days, then i can see how being on it for 70+ days can lower it even more since it does build up in the system. My lipid profile is also whacked. I like the fact that i stayed dry with no sign of gyno but damn.

I am just worried that i see many replies from people that used Aromasin with their E2 thru the roof.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. Reading all the replies it is obvious that it is pretty obvious to me that it is the Letro. If one study showed a 15% reduction just in 28days, then i can see how being on it for 70+ days can lower it even more since it does build up in the system. My lipid profile is also whacked. I like the fact that i stayed dry with no sign of gyno but damn.

I am just worried that i see many replies from people that used Aromasin with their E2 thru the roof.

Im glad this little debate did help you out brother.

I should have stated that letro CRUSHES estrogen more so than other types of AI's. Then the debate wouldn't have started....My bad.

Definately try some GOOD Aromasin and your IGF-1 levels should rise back to normal..
JMO...
Good luck!!
 
So is it the fact that Letro can lower estrogen to lower levels than other AI's that make it inhibit IGF-1 levels because of the overall lack of estrogen to work with, or is it something to do with letro's mechanism of action that lowers IGF-1 levels like the study showed?

What if one used letro and kept their estrogen in the same range that someone on Aromasin did? Would their IGF-1 levels differ?

If Letro is a culprit I'm switching over to Aromasin (no doubt from a different sponser this time though) once I get my 204 estrogen level down and maintain from there.
 
So is it the fact that Letro can lower estrogen to lower levels than other AI's that make it inhibit IGF-1 levels because of the overall lack of estrogen to work with, or is it something to do with letro's mechanism of action that lowers IGF-1 levels like the study showed?

What if one used letro and kept their estrogen in the same range that someone on Aromasin did? Would their IGF-1 levels differ?

If Letro is a culprit I'm switching over to Aromasin (no doubt from a different sponser this time though) once I get my 204 estrogen level down and maintain from there.


I have read that you get a better absorption rate from Aromasin if it's taken with a fatty meal. Try an ounce or two of almonds or other nuts.
 

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