Women and GH: dosages, effects of estradiol, IGFBP-1

[Type-IIx]

I see a lot of misconceptions about women and rhGH. Basically, very low dosages are being used in women. While this is fairly attributable to lower body mass (m^2), the dosages are WAY off for any appreciable effects from what I can tell. Women need, controlling for body mass, about triple a male dose for similar efficacy. A lot of this is related to estradiol, exogenous estrogens, and a concomitant rise in IGFBP-1.

Perimenopausal women have remarkably high GH concentrations versus their age-matched male counterparts, yet a markedly diminished GH response as reflected by serum IGF-I concentrations.

The principal negative feedback inhibitive mechanism is via estrogen-mediated increase in IGFBP-1 levels. Higher IGFBP-1 levels reduce free IGF-I availability and (endogenously) unleash GH secretion by feedback withdrawal.

From Growth Hormone in Adults: Physiological and Clinical Aspects, Second Edition (2000):
Women have greater responsiveness to provocative GH-stimulation such as GHRH & arginine, higher basal serum GH concentrations, ambulatory GH concentration, integrated GH concentration over 24 h. Perimenopausal women secrete 1.5 to 3.1 times more GH than men... mainly due to higher GH secretory burst amplitude. The differences between perimenopausal and age-matched men after overnight fasting and normal exercise is greatest in women on oral contraceptives.


Serum concentrations of IGF-I in 21 men & 15 women in adult GHD before and after 9 mo of treatment with rhGH.


The men and women had a similar duration of GHD (about 10 years), a similar severity, and nighttime serum GH concentrations. Yet, the men had serum IGF-I levels almost twice that of the women (123 ± 73 vs. 61 ± 32 µg/L).


In response to rhGH treatment, the following parameters changed significantly more in the men than in the women:
- serum IGF-I levels
- total body fat
- abdominal fat mass
- fat mass of the upper extremities, and
- serum markers of bone metabolism

In men, but not women, significant reductions were observed in:
- total serum cholesterol
- LDL-cholesterol
- LDL/HDL ratio
- serum apolipoprotein B
- plasma activity of plasminogen activator inhibitor (PAI-1)

Whereas an increase in serum apolipoprotein a (Lp(a)) was observed in both men and women.

The increase in LBM was significant in both men and women.

In the men there was a linear relationship between rhGH dose and increase in serum IGF-I (r = 0.60, p = 0.0004) and between the increase in IGF-I and the decrease in total body fat (r = 0.65, p = 0.014). In the women, no such relationships were observed.
[2]


Dose-response for women vs men
To achieve a normalization of serum IGF-I in 60 patients with a mean age of 47 years a daily dose of 0.6IU was sufficient in men whereas 1.2 IU (or 1.8 IU) was required in the women (Jansen, Frohlich & Roelfsema, 1997)... Oral contraceptives further reduce the responsiveness in women (Eden Engstrom et al., 1998b).


Synthetic estrogens and contraceptives in women
- may reduce the rhGH dose by 50% if a woman is switched from oral estrogen to transdermal estrogen and then to reduce it by one third if the woman discontinues transdermal estrogen, suggested by D.M. Cook, W.H. Ludlam, M.B. Cook, Route of estrogen administration helps to determine growth hormone (GH) replace-ment dose in GH-deficient adults, J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 84(1999) 3956–3960
- oral estrogen administration elevates IGFBP-1 concentrations, which reduce free IGF-I availability and unleash (endogenous) GH secretion by feedback withdrawal [1]
- Systemic estrogen administration does not increase hepatic IGFBP-3 production despite clearly augmenting (endogenous) GH drive [1]. This response dissociation is consitent with relative (hepatic) resistance to GH action following high-dose estradiol exposure... A third evident distinction is that only (endogenous) estrogen secretion is characteried by concomitant ovarian production of androgen and (in the luteal phase) progesterone... in this regard, combined supplementation with estrogen and a synthetic progestin elevates both GH and IGF-I concentrations (2, 33, 34, 91) [1]. However, synthetic progestins in these contexts could act via the AR or PR.
- Estrogen selectively stimulates GH secretory-burst mass and, thereby, elevates the incremental and absolute height of serum GH concentrations (16, 18, 25, 95) [1].


References
[1] Veldhuis, J. D., & Bowers, C. Y. (2003). Human GH pulsatility: An ensemble property regulated by age and gender. Journal of Endocrinological Investigation, 26(9), 799–813. doi:10.1007/bf03345229
[2] Burman, P., Johansson, A. G., Siegbahn, A., Vessby, B., & Karlsson, F. A. (1997). Growth Hormone (GH)-Deficient Men Are More Responsive to GH Replacement Therapy Than Women. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 82(2), 550–555. doi:10.1210/jcem.82.2.3776

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

So this is for growth hormone deficient females and males ?

 

[Type-IIx]

So this is for growth hormone deficient females and males ?

I'm sorry bro but if you want my assistance from here forward you'll have to be less obtuse in your questions and show at least a scintilla of common courtesy. I don't get that from you.

If your question is in regards to the title, no, this pertains to women (it's in the post, this is directed at women generally). About 1/2 of this article refers to research in GHD women, the other 1/2 refers to healthy women. The mechanism by which IGBFP-1 negatively inhibits GH response (the increase in serum IGF-I) is not tied to health status (whether or not a woman has GHD), but to estrogen status (whether premenopausal, on oral estrogens, etc.)

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

I'm sorry bro but if you want my assistance from here forward you'll have to be less obtuse in your questions and show at least a scintilla of common courtesy. I don't get that from you.

If your question is in regards to the title, no, this pertains to women (it's in the post, this is directed at women generally). About 1/2 of this article refers to research in GHD women, the other 1/2 refers to healthy women. The mechanism by which IGBFP-1 negatively inhibits GH response (the increase in serum IGF-I) is not tied to health status (whether or not a woman has GHD), but to estrogen status (whether premenopausal, on oral estrogens, etc.)

Well this is the first question in your thread and was asked to be sure but no worries. I don't give you common courtesy? Maybe I don't understand half the stuff you write but that doesn't matter. I bet I look better than you muscle wise.

You've spent half you're life in a book and maybe best you write books on science nerd stuff and not bodybuilding

Not saying your stuffs not relevant, but to say I don't give you common courtesy by me Genuinely asked questions because it's a bit over my head and I'm confused you recommended I look at this thread. Go fly a kite you science bookworm

 

[Type-IIx]

Well this is the first question in your thread and was asked to be sure but no worries. I don't give you common courtesy? Maybe I don't understand half the stuff you write but that doesn't matter. I bet I look better than you muscle wise.

You've spent half you're life in a book and maybe best you write books on science nerd stuff and not bodybuilding

Not saying your stuffs not relevant, but to say I don't give you common courtesy by me Genuinely asked questions because it's a bit over my head and I'm confused you recommended I look at this thread. Go fly a kite you prick

Hahaha if you met me in real life you'd like me more than you think (maybe not now if I was like "yo it's Type-IIx"). I'm not an autistic nerd like so many seem to think, but I always get a great kick out of the thought process that gets you there.

Honestly maybe I misinterpreted some communications I've had with you on other threads and this one, maybe not. Either way, have a good weekend bro.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

My nephew has autism he can't even write or speak , so austism has nothing to do with that. Yeah fella have a good day

---

 

[Gunsmith]

Uhhh , bullshit!!!

I know dozens of females from 25-65 years old that get as good of results running 2iu a day of quality Generic HGH than guys running 6iu a day.

If you gave a 120lb female 12iu a day HGH she would be absolutely miserable with water retention.

I think the problem with this study along with most others is that it was probably done of completely untrained and seditary people with far less than optimal diet. In which case it could be plausible but in trained athletes , I'll stick with the "data" that I've seen actually working first hand

 

[Type-IIx]

Uhhh , bullshit!!!

I know dozens of females from 25-65 years old that get as good of results running 2iu a day of quality Generic HGH than guys running 6iu a day.

If you gave a 120lb female 12iu a day HGH she would be absolutely miserable with water retention.

I think the problem with this study along with most others is that it was probably done of completely untrained and seditary people with far less than optimal diet. In which case it could be plausible but in trained athletes , I'll stick with the "data" that I've seen actually working first hand

It's not a single study though. It's a book that references the body of literature along with two studies, and this post specifically pertains to the mechanisms by which women do, in fact, need higher doses than their male counterparts per-body mass (m^2) dosing. All the science shows the same thing. If you say so though, you sound pretty confident (by the way, since the dosing is based on body mass, i.e., m^2, as well as suffering from far worse side effects as a result of the concomitant rise in IGFBP-1 unleashing feedback withdrawal it would be pretty ludicrous to suggest a woman take 12IU, nice strawman though bro).

 

[cage99]

I’ve read through some studies that do say women need a higher dose of growth than men. However, I can’t see this being optimal in real life. If my wife ever decides she wants to use GH with her weight training I’d only use 1-3iu’s. Start with 1iu and basically tirade up from there depending on how she feels & sides. She’s been reading up on it more and more, and is on the cusp. At least she’ll have some solid growth to utilize!

Cage

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Appreciate your posts Type II

I think we all can at least acknowledge this stuff as true and cool science.
Are the studies optimal and do they show exactly how a motivated fitness female might use GH to improve her physique?
No, of course not. Can we use this study to show that females' bodies/hormones are muuuuch different and that GH works in weirder ways, especially if they are taking birth control? Yes, 100%.

Every time someone makes a bro-science or real science post, we get people IMMEDIATELY trying to prove each other wrong or just digging their heals in. Its ok to have grey area folks. There's a liittttle bit of both in all of this shit and how WE apply it to our real lives.

No one is saying 1-2iu of gh doesnt work for almost any woman to make great physique changes, but it is saying that hormonal stuff is just different and it miiight be worth looking into alternate dosing strategies for females. That's all.

 

[Type-IIx]

Appreciate your posts Type II

I think we all can at least acknowledge this stuff as true and cool science.
Are the studies optimal and do they show exactly how a motivated fitness female might use GH to improve her physique?
No, of course not. Can we use this study to show that females' bodies/hormones are muuuuch different and that GH works in weirder ways, especially if they are taking birth control? Yes, 100%.

Every time someone makes a bro-science or real science post, we get people IMMEDIATELY trying to prove each other wrong or just digging their heals in. Its ok to have grey area folks. There's a liittttle bit of both in all of this shit and how WE apply it to our real lives.

No one is saying 1-2iu of gh doesnt work for almost any woman to make great physique changes, but it is saying that hormonal stuff is just different and it miiight be worth looking into alternate dosing strategies for females. That's all.

Thank you bro, these are my thoughts as well. There's a case for science being integrated with practice, information flows from science to practice and vice versa. I also think the post presents a solid case for Ghrelin mimetics/GHRP agonists and the secretagogues being a better choice for women than rhGH (Women have greater responsiveness to provocative GH-stimulation such as GHRH, higher GH burst amplitude, higher basal GH).

 

[jcc80]

Thank you bro, these are my thoughts as well. There's a case for science being integrated with practice, information flows from science to practice and vice versa. I also think the post presents a solid case for Ghrelin mimetics/GHRP agonists and the secretagogues being a better choice for women than rhGH (Women have greater responsiveness to provocative GH-stimulation such as GHRH, higher GH burst amplitude, higher basal GH).

That's actually super interesting. I had started sharing some of my gh with my wife recently and she doesn't mind daily shots. So perhaps she would be better off with mod grf and ipam? My wallet would be happy.

 

[Type-IIx]

That's actually super interesting. I had started sharing some of my gh with my wife recently and she doesn't mind daily shots. So perhaps she would be better off with mod grf and ipam? My wallet would be happy.

I don't want to use her as a lab rat to test this, but I do suspect Mod GRF(1-29) and Ipamorelin would likely be more efficacious and better tolerated than rhGH (better results, less sides), ESPECIALLY if she's on exogenous estrogens.

 

[Sassy]

I'm on HRT (bio-identical) and medicine for thyroid (Hypo). How does GH effect HRT and thyroid numbers?

The reason I ask is because I had surgery due that severally restricted what I could do during recover. Needless to say that I needed a refill on my HRT, but the doctor would not gie me a refill until I came in for bloodwork. I missed a month. When I went in to my endocrinologist, my thyroid was a mess! I didn't realize that my HRT would fuck up my thyroid so bad. It's taken 6 months to get it all straighten back out.

I would love to give GH another try, but need it to throw off my Thyroid.

 

[Type-IIx]

I'm on HRT (bio-identical) and medicine for thyroid (Hypo). How does GH effect HRT and thyroid numbers?

The reason I ask is because I had surgery due that severally restricted what I could do during recover. Needless to say that I needed a refill on my HRT, but the doctor would not gie me a refill until I came in for bloodwork. I missed a month. When I went in to my endocrinologist, my thyroid was a mess! I didn't realize that my HRT would fuck up my thyroid so bad. It's taken 6 months to get it all straighten back out.

I would love to give GH another try, but need it to throw off my Thyroid.

It's good you asked, because GH will worsen hypothyroidism! I wouldn't take it in your case, that would be a real contraindication.

 

[jcc80]

Now that's interesting too. My wife has hashimotos thyroid, and takes desiccated thyroid. She started getting restless leg, which certainly could have been a coincidence. But maybe not?

In your opinion, what exactly would gh do to someone who has been consistently taking thyroid meds for years? Would it require a higher dose of thyroid? Or is it something that's just better off avoided altogether?

 

[Type-IIx]

Now that's interesting too. My wife has hashimotos thyroid, and takes desiccated thyroid. She started getting restless leg, which certainly could have been a coincidence. But maybe not?

In your opinion, what exactly would gh do to someone who has been consistently taking thyroid meds for years? Would it require a higher dose of thyroid? Or is it something that's just better off avoided altogether?

It's quite common that it will require a higher dose of thyroid meds (e.g., levothyroxine) and it means (being hypothyroid) that GH response will be substantially diminished, sort of defeating the purpose of the rhGH to begin with.

 

[jcc80]

Well shit.

 

[juicenstein]

Ive seen women get great results with 1-2 iu a day

 

[nothuman]

It's good you asked, because GH will worsen hypothyroidism! I wouldn't take it in your case, that would be a real contraindication.

I am interested in knowing how GH worsens hypothyroidism?

I heard that GH improves conversion of T4 into T3, which in theory, would improve hypothyroidsm.