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MP @ LOW DOSES (WOW)

concreteguy

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This post is from Dante Trudel.

<<<Man I hate talking about this....but now I feel I must.
Ive seen alot of bloodwork in my time....I kind of know the deal on what the bloodwork says and what someone is using and if they are telling me the truth. {In fact i just had two situations where trainers asked me to look over their trainees bloodwork and I flat out told them "they are lying to you, no way this would look like this and that would look like that" They arent telling you the truth" ..... I looked over all of Matts bloodwork for the last 4 years. It corresponded with exactly what he was taking. He was pretty much taking singular compounds but mainly test and gh. He tried primo, he tried a couple low dose orals, he tried very very low dose tren....at different times...but basically lower dose test and gh. Every time he tried something he would test it out with bloodwork and nix it if bloodwork came back at all negative....He went up and down with the test dosage, from 170 to 300 to 400 and back down and i think he tried 500mg once if i remember right for "a not very long time".....thats what he was doing. He got echo's and visited a cardiologist every 6 months. Things on that front were fine. His symptoms scream of a pulmonary embolism. A spot on lungs on a scan about a month ago, labored breathing for 3-4 weeks, feeling like crap, tired, some pain in chest cavity. Ive talked to Rachel about this and told her this is what I (at this time) feel happened. There is a little bit more to this in the equation but im going to reserve it to myself (and a couple close friends I have on this board). There will not be an autopsy. And I know everyone is curious but ask the question of yourself if the person you loved dearly died....its hard to let them go and you are distraught....do you really want them cut up and dissected at that point? They are gone. Its a tough situation....

We talked in length that he will be surprised greatly about the size he can hold on lower dose test and gh and he was shocked...and he especially thanked me for driving that into his head.....because it made him put so much more effort into training and eating correctly (whereas he said back in the day he felt he wasnt training correctly to gain muscle mass).....he started training progressively. Pulmonary Embolism is what I believe happened (and now I am seeing various doctors and med students concurring with me on that front) ....until i see something otherwise. >>>


Without exception Matt Porter had the most developed musculature I have ever seen with such low doses. I have heard on pod casts other IFBB pros calling him out on this many times. I have seen it in posts many times.

BUT after reading this post. I believe this to be true! What better reference could he have had? My complete perspective on gear use has changed and I truly believe we should ALLLLL take a much harder look into this and pursue future BBing in this MUCH safer manor. I have been completely off all gear for months and think NOW is a great time to put this new "low dose" gear use into action.

This post isn't to discus IF the doses were the truth, SO SAVE THAT FOR ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE. I'm sure there are many of us that stand fast after reading BIGA's, The Truth post. You literally couldn't find two more polarized posts. I have equal respect and admiration for both of these folks and didn't question a thing in BIGA's post until seeing Matt and reading Dante's post. Even after reading Dante's posts I didn't question if it were the truth. It has just become evident that there's more ways than one to get there. So I'm in!

I would appreciate everyone that has low dosed with or without success posting up their experiences doing it.

Lets assume :
Diet, macro, micros and calories
Training
Sleep and rest (are all on point)


Thanks guys, CG
 
short n simple
i have paid a LOT of attention to what phil h, john m and dc have said/done.

they lay it out better then anyone. all very similar.
over the past 5 years i think i have only done a few "cycles" or "blasts" just trt and trying to go lower and lower on that aka emeric.

basic boaring things
lol
they are basically all right.
who knew. lol :p

was out of the gym most of the year, been slowly getting myself back in shape and keep making the mature decision to stay within the realms of true trt.

im at a personal best and the drug addict in me wants to add gear, the boaring mature responsible person im trying to become has forced me to stay with tweaking the diet for.... just gona keep trying. lol

happy to see you around bro!
hope you are well
 
"Without exception Matt Porter had the most developed musculature I have ever seen with such low doses."


Ok he may have been taking low doses...THAT I don't doubt..... but to "achieve" that developed musculature i'm sure the doses weren't that low...... To HOLD onto muscle is one thing, to CREATE lean muscle tissue is another..... just my .02...
 
"Without exception Matt Porter had the most developed musculature I have ever seen with such low doses."


Ok he may have been taking low doses...THAT I don't doubt..... but to "achieve" that developed musculature i'm sure the doses weren't that low...... To HOLD onto muscle is one thing, to CREATE lean muscle tissue is another..... just my .02...

I see the thread "where have all of the OGs gone" asking why the real bodybuilders don't come here any more, then I click here to see the answer.

The 250-300mg 260 lbs lean standard that's been here for the ,8 years I've read here is the answer. People know better.
 
Matt has simply great genetics and an amazing work ethic. Even when he was competing his doses were super low. I remember him saying at his highest abuse it was 2iu of growth every 3 hours (8iu a day) 750mg test, 700 tren ace and some winstrol and shit to harden up. That is nothing compared to how big he was.


Also remember him just eating cans of tuna over his sink when we did no carbs for months on end. Not many people could do what. Hard work and genetically gifted
 
We are talking about initially building that muscle versus recouping it and/or keeping it. I honestly can’t really imagine taking over 300mgs total all combined compounds in a week ever again. I’m 5’8” and 230ish fairly lean.

It’s sort of like peters touting the 400mgs test is all he needs and people say bullshit. I absolutely believe it. But that’s not how he turned into a freak.

I have no doubt I could come off 100%, stop training, cut calories to get down to 180 and on 200-300mgs test and gh quickly get right back to where I am now.

So maybe the key is to do what you gotta do to get to your endgame and stop immediately and drop to the low dose? Be done, be content and call it a day.

Maybe the problem is we are always chasing more? More muscle, more leanness etc and if you always want more, more, more of those two things indefinitely you will indefinitely have to use more.

I found my endgame about 5 yers ago. I maybe improve .05% a year...MAYBE. But I can do that on 150-300mgs of test. Im done I’m content. The game is over. Little year little gh and at 36 I likely will just try to hold steady from here on.
 
It's different building muscle to getting it back or maintaining. I am nothing special (far from it) but that should add weight as if I can do it loads of people can. When I come off everything and look crap it only takes 3 weeks back on to pretty much get 90% back. Matt went off for longer so it would take more time. The body is also like a sponge in that state so will respond to lower doses even better. He may have also had a naturally good response etc etc. But his doses in the past were much higher that what he done recently and that is a big factor. Just the same as some huge guys can maintain their mass on 300mg test because they have held it for years. Well a bit different as he built it back but it's all connected.

Just deleted a paragraph as no point. Only the person themselves know what they do. But the above still applies.
 
Matt has simply great genetics and an amazing work ethic. Even when he was competing his doses were super low. I remember him saying at his highest abuse it was 2iu of growth every 3 hours (8iu a day) 750mg test, 700 tren ace and some winstrol and shit to harden up. That is nothing compared to how big he was.


Also remember him just eating cans of tuna over his sink when we did no carbs for months on end. Not many people could do what. Hard work and genetically gifted

And please I don't want ANYBODY to think that I'm saying anything negative about the guy AT ALL... he was an AMAZING individual...sharp as a tack. all around good people... but I think all of us at SOME point (more than likely early on, n our quest for size) have gotten a lil reckless....chasing the gains... I mean, its almost saying like someone can get HUGE by doing light weight and high reps.... Now, can a HUGE guy hold onto muscle by doing that?? I think so but it would still be tough IMO... but to GET HUGE?? Gotta scratch my head on that one....
 
Good post, CG!

I can't comment on Matt, but you can most definitely grow on lower test, especially if HGH is added in. It's a slower ride than taking multiple compounds and higher doses, but if diet, training and consistency are in order, it works....sort of like the snail vs. the rabbit. Of course, a hyper-responder compared to a lower/average responder will make a difference too. Probably for most, father time and aging is the biggest factor.

I'm more of a lower test guy in the winter with an occasional run of npp to spice it up. I haven't used HGH in years either. Using lower test (I use sub-q insulin injects) is easy, and no stress at all....well, outside of frequent slin pin orders.
 
And please I don't want ANYBODY to think that I'm saying anything negative about the guy AT ALL... he was an AMAZING individual...sharp as a tack. all around good people... but I think all of us at SOME point (more than likely early on, n our quest for size) have gotten a lil reckless....chasing the gains... I mean, its almost saying like someone can get HUGE by doing light weight and high reps.... Now, can a HUGE guy hold onto muscle by doing that?? I think so but it would still be tough IMO... but to GET HUGE?? Gotta scratch my head on that one....

I mean he used normal doses you’d find back in the 90s and early 2000s.
I def can say I have used probably triple the doses he used and I look nothing like him. It’s hard to understand for people who arnt genetically gifted how it’s possible, like Ronnie Coleman was pro placing 15th at he Olympia natural.

It shows how good someone’s genetics are when they can eat no carbs for months and still be 220 plus with 6% body fat on a couple hundred mg of gear.
 
Matt has simply great genetics

He had an inexhaustible enthusiasm, amazing ability to absorb and sort the different factors of muscle development and fat loss, and an ethic of work out of the ordinary.
But I do not think he had a great genetics in terms of shape, balance... if you reads his firts posts from 2005 in this forum, he said he was ectomorphic, then, used much SEO on his arms, and his legs never had a competitive development. He could have what we call a great mental genetics, but that is only part of the equation necessary to be a successful pro.

I guess that's the difference between someone like Dorian, and the rest. He had the supreme genetics in all the factors: mind, bone structure, muscle balance, stage presence, muscular mass, granulated condition
 
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The thing is almost no one has diet (macro, micros and calories), training, and sleep absolutely 100% on point unless they plan on getting on stage...and if that's the plan the drugs are always going to be in as well.

Matt was a rare breed with him being just as disciplined with the lifestyle without being juiced to the grills.
 
And please I don't want ANYBODY to think that I'm saying anything negative about the guy AT ALL... he was an AMAZING individual...sharp as a tack. all around good people... but I think all of us at SOME point (more than likely early on, n our quest for size) have gotten a lil reckless....chasing the gains... I mean, its almost saying like someone can get HUGE by doing light weight and high reps.... Now, can a HUGE guy hold onto muscle by doing that?? I think so but it would still be tough IMO... but to GET HUGE?? Gotta scratch my head on that one....

I completely agree with you 100%. At the end of Matt's life (RIP) Matt looked bigger than I have ever seen him before. If your going to except Dante's post as fact, that's a real chin scratcher for me. Matt was huge at the end. Even if he was in a calorie surplus and a little fat he was still huge. Very impressive for any amount of gear much less these small doses were talking about. If in some way this is possible, I want in on it.

As far as genetics, I don't think he was a super responder. I believe there was almost no one more anal about the entire umbrella of the program than Matt. This guy crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's. Again, very impressive.
 
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The thing that stuck out the most to me in recent times was his ability to stay lean considering what he was eating and how fast he grew. As CG posted he was huge just before he sadly passed away. He was not eating "clean". But what really is the true definition of "clean" but that's another point entirely. You don't have to eat entirely clean for it to be effective and some do better with some junk. He was taking in loads of food and massive shakes and fast carbs in huge amounts. His training wasn't that hardcore either but as many know it doesn't need to be to get results.
 
He had an inexhaustible enthusiasm, amazing ability to absorb and sort the different factors of muscle development and fat loss, and an ethic of work out of the ordinary.
But I do not think he had a great genetics in terms of shape, balance... if you reads his firts posts from 2005 in this forum, he said he was ectomorphic, then, used much SEO on his arms, and his legs never had a competitive development. He could have what we call a great mental genetics, but that is only part of the equation necessary to be a successful pro.

I guess that's the difference between someone like Dorian, and the rest. He had the supreme genetics in all the factors: mind, bone structure, muscle balance, stage presence, muscular mass, granulated condition

I agree. When I deleted a paragraph earlier it included some bits on the SEO usage that he always downplayed earlier on. I called him out on that once. He mentioned it more later in his life though. Not a time for this I will just say he definitely used it a fair amount. Plus some other enhancement agents that he posted about later on before contests particularly in his arms, delts (especially rear) and quads etc. I think he had great genetics to stay lean as he grew amongst many other things but definitely wasn't blessed with great shape like some of the all time greats are. I don't want my post to come off a certain way as I am usually the one backing up his claims about his doses etc but just posting what I think. He seemed like a great guy and looked fantastic (super impressive) as well and is definitely a massive loss to the community.
 
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imo who cares bout what dose he was on, high or low. whats painfully obvious is he was HUGE. if a person is 260lbs of fat and @5'8" and has a heart attack and/or heart and bp probs they are being wreckless staying at that weight. muscle is really no different than fat in my experience. that much muscle or fat is a taxing weight on the body
(whew i am stoned did that even make sense... took me forever to write...)
-F2S
 
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imo who cares bout what dose he was on, high or low. whats painfully obvious is he was HUGE. if a person is 260lbs of fat and @5'8" and has a heart attack and/or heart and bp probs they are being wreckless staying at that weight. muscle is really no different than fat in my experience. that much muscle or fat is a taxing weight on the body
(whew i am stoned did that even make sense... took me forever to write...)
-F2S

Bro... What the fuck are you on about?

Haha made me lol :D
 
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imo who cares bout what dose he was on, high or low. whats painfully obvious is he was HUGE. if a person is 260lbs of fat and @5'8" and has a heart attack and/or heart and bp probs they are being wreckless staying at that weight. muscle is really no different than fat in my experience. that much muscle or fat is a taxing weight on the body
(whew i am stoned did that even make sense... took me forever to write...)
-F2S

I care! If there's a way to do this with much less gear I want to know how.
 
I agree. When I deleted a paragraph earlier it included some bits on the SEO usage that he always downplayed earlier on. I called him out on that once. He mentioned it more later in his life though. Not a time for this I will just say he definitely used it a fair amount. Plus some other enhancement agents that he posted about later on before contests particularly in his arms, delts (especially rear) and quads etc. I think he had great genetics to stay lean as he grew amongst many other things but definitely wasn't blessed with great shape like some of the all time greats are. I don't want my post to come off a certain way as I am usually the one backing up his claims about his doses etc but just posting what I think. He seemed like a great guy and looked fantastic (super impressive) as well and is definitely a massive loss to the community.

I was not here when his SEO use, I "met" Matt much later and he talked about SEO and other gear quite naturally.

Realistically, Matt used everything under the sun, everything. No, I dont think he was an obsessed in question of get the pro card, I thing there are better ways to try become pro, and you do not need so many exotic things, he just was an obsessive experimenter. I love Matt because for me, before bodybuilder, he was a scientist.
 
I care! If there's a way to do this with much less gear I want to know how.

i dont think there is.
to be BIG just aint healthy. Porter perfect example sadly.

ANY time i reduced drug intake i got smaller. period. i dont believe its possible to be on 1000mg test and stay same size on 150mg test. how would that be possible?
and you arent gonna grow much on 150mg test so you would have to up dose to add size then health markers start goin south. inevitable.
i am finally over it due to matt's death. not gonna screw around tryin to convince myself i can be healthy AND unnaturally big. i have never been able to for years.... Bp always gets outta whack first....

I have this theory that if you are meant to be a smaller guy and drug and eat yourself to become a big guy i feel its more unhealthy than a guy who has genetics to be big. I feel i am meant to be a thinner guy. I think Matt didnt have gorilla genetics either. For that reason i think the lifestyle is harder on guys like him and I. just a theory... no data to back it up
-F2S
 
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