Few quetions regarding insulin

[Pbfanatic321]

So I have been reading insulin use a lot and want to gather the most information possible before starting. I am going to follow Mike Arnold's insulin protocol, but I will only ever use 10iu as opposed to his 15iu recommendation. I will also be using Novolin-R, therefore I will fix the shake times accordingly. I am going to be using this protocol to put on as much mass as I can before I decide to prep for whatever show I decide to do.

I do not want to start at 10iu the first day, I want to slowly work my way up from probably 5iu.

So here are some questions:

1) It is known that you should always start with 10 grams of carbs PER IU of insulin and adjust carb intake accordingly if you can. If I start with 5iu, that would mean I would need 50 grams of carbs throughout 3 shakes. Now this may be a stupid question, but do I just split up the 50 grams amongst 3 shakes, so roughly 17 grams per shake? Just seems like a little amount for each shake, but yes I know it's only 5iu of insulin.

2) I've read that if you consume and excess amount of carbs while the insulin is active in your body, all the excess carbs will result in fat gain. I have also read that, and I will quote, "most of your carb intake when using insulin should be consumed pre/intra/post workout." That kind of throws me off because if I am consuming 500 grams of carbs per day, why should most be consumed pre/intra/post? That gives me the impression that, for 10iu of insulin, I should consume MOST (lets say 300 grams) of my carbs pre/intra/post workout. Just clear this up for me please.

3) I am planning on taking 1500mg of metformin per day, when should this be consumed? I have read that it should be taken after meals, but with one big dose or throughout the day?

I think that is all the questions I have for now, as I am pretty understanding with everything else. I know some may seem like stupid questions, but I just want to make sure I FULLY understand everything before I take the plunge. Thank you everyone.

 

[Defaced]

Ive run near to 60 IU of insuline daily and i find it pretty safe if you know what you are doing, just always stay ready for any complication. I recommend you to start taking it only after training in dosage 10-15iu. Start with 10g carb/iu as you said. I did it this way, right after training insulin 15Iu, shake with creatin, glutamin 150g carbs and about 60g protein, one hour after that big meal with more carbs less protein, and 2 hours after meal again with little carbs and high protein, also GH, T3, clenbuterol, fat burner whatever will help you to not get too much fat, just avoid fats in general after taking it.

 

[Knight9]

So I have been reading insulin use a lot and want to gather the most information possible before starting. I am going to follow Mike Arnold's insulin protocol, but I will only ever use 10iu as opposed to his 15iu recommendation. I will also be using Novolin-R, therefore I will fix the shake times accordingly. I am going to be using this protocol to put on as much mass as I can before I decide to prep for whatever show I decide to do.

I do not want to start at 10iu the first day, I want to slowly work my way up from probably 5iu.

So here are some questions:

1) It is known that you should always start with 10 grams of carbs PER IU of insulin and adjust carb intake accordingly if you can. If I start with 5iu, that would mean I would need 50 grams of carbs throughout 3 shakes. Now this may be a stupid question, but do I just split up the 50 grams amongst 3 shakes, so roughly 17 grams per shake? Just seems like a little amount for each shake, but yes I know it's only 5iu of insulin.

2) I've read that if you consume and excess amount of carbs while the insulin is active in your body, all the excess carbs will result in fat gain. I have also read that, and I will quote, "most of your carb intake when using insulin should be consumed pre/intra/post workout." That kind of throws me off because if I am consuming 500 grams of carbs per day, why should most be consumed pre/intra/post? That gives me the impression that, for 10iu of insulin, I should consume MOST (lets say 300 grams) of my carbs pre/intra/post workout. Just clear this up for me please.

3) I am planning on taking 1500mg of metformin per day, when should this be consumed? I have read that it should be taken after meals, but with one big dose or throughout the day?

I think that is all the questions I have for now, as I am pretty understanding with everything else. I know some may seem like stupid questions, but I just want to make sure I FULLY understand everything before I take the plunge. Thank you everyone.

1)You'll need at least 6-10g of carbs per iu in most cases...perhaps more if using pre workout. The amount of carbs is pretty much for the onset and peaks of the insulin...so know your insulin. With Humulin R, you want to start consuming carbs about 20min after the shot...and then it peaks from 2-4hrs. If you are doing intra-workout....make a big drink of 50-100carbs to be safe and sip it throughout. Then, have a meal post workout with carbs.
You'll likely want to have had a meal already with carbs prior that day so your blood sugar levels will be stabilized. If you are fasted or have not had carbs, you may want to start consuming those carbs a bit quicker...as it may hit you a bit quicker or harder.

2)You can't think of it like that. Excess carbs aren't overshooting by a few grams. It's completely surpassing your needs on a constant basis that will lead to fat gain. Too many people are using insulin trying to use as few carbs as possible when the reality of it is...you want to LOAD the muscle and enhance recovery.

Consuming carbs around the workout is something that has caught on and is a MAJOR MAJOR PLUS. It just works really well. My suggestion to you if that is your goal is cut carbs out from other meals in the day perhaps. Remember you are catering the insulin to your diet, not catering your diet to insulin. People do this wrong all the time. Carbs around the workout are the way to go IMO...unless you are large and wanting to get bigger. It's just plain efficiency. And no, you don't take 300g of carbs for 10iu. However, someone may end up eating 300 carbs a day and having 200-230 peri-workout.(pre workout meal, intra workout shake, and post workout meal). Insulin will vary...10iu, 15iu...some even 20iu and others 10iu pre and post. Quite honestly...from reading your questions, I would say you have not read enough and do not have a very good understanding which makes me hesitant to give you too many specifics. I don't want to look careless.

3) I would not mix metformin and insulin on the same days. This is just plain bad practice...especially for a beginner and someone who doesn't understand each drug and how they can bring out situations that wouldn't happen when not used in the same time periods. Save metformin for your days off insulin during the week to restore sensitivity or just save it for your time when you cycle off insulin. Taking metformin and insulin and not understanding what can happen and planning for it can land you in some trouble.

With all due respect, I think you need to read more but feel free to ask questions.

A good place to start is....what is your current intra workout shake? 50g...75g carbs? Keep using what you have been using and add 5iu insulin....but have extra carbs on hand. Then as your dosing goes up, you are going to have to add more carbs in the pre workout meal or intra workout shake and you are also going to have to get your timing down and monitor how you are feeling. You basically need a steady influx of carbs while the insulin is active and especially when it's peaking. For example...you can shoot 10iu insulin and drink 100g carbs 10 minutes later...and that DOES NOT mean those 100g carbs will cover you for the duration of the insulin's active life.

Be careful...and keep asking questions. Are you fairly lean?...because if not..insulin can make you fairly fat(ter).

 

[Pbfanatic321]

1)You'll need at least 6-10g of carbs per iu in most cases...perhaps more if using pre workout. The amount of carbs is pretty much for the onset and peaks of the insulin...so know your insulin. With Humulin R, you want to start consuming carbs about 20min after the shot...and then it peaks from 2-4hrs. If you are doing intra-workout....make a big drink of 50-100carbs to be safe and sip it throughout. Then, have a meal post workout with carbs.
You'll likely want to have had a meal already with carbs prior that day so your blood sugar levels will be stabilized. If you are fasted or have not had carbs, you may want to start consuming those carbs a bit quicker...as it may hit you a bit quicker or harder.

2)You can't think of it like that. Excess carbs aren't overshooting by a few grams. It's completely surpassing your needs on a constant basis that will lead to fat gain. Too many people are using insulin trying to use as few carbs as possible when the reality of it is...you want to LOAD the muscle and enhance recovery.

Consuming carbs around the workout is something that has caught on and is a MAJOR MAJOR PLUS. It just works really well. My suggestion to you if that is your goal is cut carbs out from other meals in the day perhaps. Remember you are catering the insulin to your diet, not catering your diet to insulin. People do this wrong all the time. Carbs around the workout are the way to go IMO...unless you are large and wanting to get bigger. It's just plain efficiency. And no, you don't take 300g of carbs for 10iu. However, someone may end up eating 300 carbs a day and having 200-230 peri-workout.(pre workout meal, intra workout shake, and post workout meal). Insulin will vary...10iu, 15iu...some even 20iu and others 10iu pre and post. Quite honestly...from reading your questions, I would say you have not read enough and do not have a very good understanding which makes me hesitant to give you too many specifics. I don't want to look careless.

3) I would not mix metformin and insulin on the same days. This is just plain bad practice...especially for a beginner and someone who doesn't understand each drug and how they can bring out situations that wouldn't happen when not used in the same time periods. Save metformin for your days off insulin during the week to restore sensitivity or just save it for your time when you cycle off insulin. Taking metformin and insulin and not understanding what can happen and planning for it can land you in some trouble.

With all due respect, I think you need to read more but feel free to ask questions.

A good place to start is....what is your current intra workout shake? 50g...75g carbs? Keep using what you have been using and add 5iu insulin....but have extra carbs on hand. Then as your dosing goes up, you are going to have to add more carbs in the pre workout meal or intra workout shake and you are also going to have to get your timing down and monitor how you are feeling. You basically need a steady influx of carbs while the insulin is active and especially when it's peaking. For example...you can shoot 10iu insulin and drink 100g carbs 10 minutes later...and that DOES NOT mean those 100g carbs will cover you for the duration of the insulin's active life.

Be careful...and keep asking questions. Are you fairly lean?...because if not..insulin can make you fairly fat(ter).

1) So do you not recommend the 3 shakes in Mike Arnold's protocol? Are you saying to pin your insulin, then 20 minutes later start sipping your intraworkout shake (containing the proper amount of carbs to IU ratio) and sip that shake throughout your workout, then go home and have a meal? I always train with a few meals in me, all containing carbs. I am just a little confused because in Mike's protocol I thought you were suppose to drink the shakes immediately, not sip any throughout your workout.

2) Currently I have carbs in all meals and my intraworkout shake and I am trying to gain size because currently I am not prepping for a show. So you would recommend me cutting carbs in other meals and then adding them to my pre, intra, and post? Doesn't that go against the 10 grams of carb per IU rule? If I consistently consume too many carbs while the insulin is active, wont' it end up in excess fat gain down the road?

3) I will read up more on metformin. I know when used with insulin it can increase your chances of going hypo.

The only thing I am confused about is Mike recommend 3 shakes where it seems like you only recommend one big shake that you sip throughout your workout. Or do you recommend pinning the insulin, having a shake 20 minutes later, then also including an intra workout shake that you sip on? Clear this up a little for me please, thanks Knight. I would much rather have one shake that I sip throughout my workout, and an actual post-workout meal containing whole food. Or even an intra shake, post workout shake, and then about an hour later a whole food meal.

 

[Knight9]

Three shakes or one - it's all the same. My one shake contains what three shakes would.

So do three shakes if you like. Mike has told me you generally drink them pretty swiftly...so yes you're right. After the first one though, you could likely sip the other two as long as you were making sure to keep a constant flow...not neglecting your drink for long periods of time.

Think about his protocol though...originally it was 15iu for 180g carbs...AND hydrolyzed protein...AND glutamine. That's plenty and insurance to cover the slin.

Just be careful trying to do any minimalist stuff with carbs etc when using slin. That's where guys get in trouble...that and not having extra carbs or glucose tablets on hand.

 

[Pbfanatic321]

Three shakes or one - it's all the same. My one shake contains what three shakes would.

So do three shakes if you like. Mike has told me you generally drink them pretty swiftly...so yes you're right. After the first one though, you could likely sip the other two as long as you were making sure to keep a constant flow...not neglecting your drink for long periods of time.

Think about his protocol though...originally it was 15iu for 180g carbs...AND hydrolyzed protein...AND glutamine. That's plenty and insurance to cover the slin.

Just be careful trying to do any minimalist stuff with carbs etc when using slin. That's where guys get in trouble...that and not having extra carbs or glucose tablets on hand.

Thanks for the fast response bud. Just to be clear, I will have glucose tablets and my HBCD with me at the gym. I may even do more than 10 grams per IU starting, just to be on the safe side.

Just one last question as of now, after injecting the insulin (30 minutes pre-workout), when using Novolin-R, I should start sipping my intra-workout shake about 20 minutes later, correct? A little before I actually hit the gym? So I don't go hypo

 

[heavyhitter]

Thanks for the fast response bud. Just to be clear, I will have glucose tablets and my HBCD with me at the gym. I may even do more than 10 grams per IU starting, just to be on the safe side.

Just one last question as of now, after injecting the insulin (30 minutes pre-workout), when using Novolin-R, I should start sipping my intra-workout shake about 20 minutes later, correct? A little before I actually hit the gym? So I don't go hypo

I personally like to start my shake about20 minutes pre so I can have some carbs and glycerol in me when I start working out

 

[heavyhitter]

And I do like knight. One giant shake that I sip pre during and Post workout. And then a meal an hour to ninety minutes later

 

[Pbfanatic321]

Thanks brother, sounds good. I like the idea of one shake you sip on as opposed to three shakes that you consume quickly.

 

[Knight9]

Thanks brother, sounds good. I like the idea of one shake you sip on as opposed to three shakes that you consume quickly.

Just make sure you are diluting with 1500ml-2000ml of water in one of those lexan/nalgene bottles. I personally would put 1800ml in it and make sure I drink about 600ml per "stage".

If you try putting HBCD's in a regular shaker etc...you will have issues running to the toilet or feeling very uncomfortable.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

first time insulin users ALWAYS eat too much carbs. don't freak out if/when you go hypo. its likely to happen. just realize whatever simple carbs you ingest will hit your blood stream in 15-20 min (or less) and the crazy ravenous feeling willing subside. if you gorge you will likely gain fat and be so bloated you just wanna go to sleep. I know this has happened to many many guys....
insulin is strong. great tool but use properly and wisely.
-JS

 

[Knight9]

I personally like to start my shake about20 minutes pre so I can have some carbs and glycerol in me when I start working out

This makes sense with Humalog. You do this with Humulin?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Novolin/Humulin is easier to mangae than humalog...and stays active throughout the enture training window, which ranges from the start of the workout until a few hours afterward, so in my opinion, regular human insulin is ideal for pre-training use in most cases.

My views have changed slightly on pre-worokout insulin use since I first wrote that program a few years back...not to mention that there is no single program that is ideal for everyone. It was more of a generic outline in terms of macro intake and insulin dosage, as I can't possibly take into account everyone's needs with a single program.

Over the last few yeasrs, I have found that better results tend to come from a combination of shakes and whole food, but not together. Instead of consuming all those shakes, I now usually recommend (when the goal is recovery & growth), that hydrolyzed protein/EAA's and branched cyclic dextrins (and anything else you might include, such as leucine, creatine, etc) be used pre and intra workout, with a whole food meal following training.

The qauntities and ratios of macros, as well as insulin dosage, can vary substantially depending on the individual. So, if using a generic template, the goal should always be to fine-tune it so that it is perfectly suited for your own individual needs.


Lastly, in terms of supplementation, some of the things which were in use back then have become a bit outdated with the arrival or new, superior supplements. So, I would not necessarily advise everything which is listed in that program--not anymore.

That's part of the problem with the internet--if you post something, I stays there forever, regardless of how many years go by. I really should provide an updated version at this point.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Novolin/Humulin is easier to mangae than humalog...and stays active throughout the enture training window, which ranges from the start of the workout until a few hours afterward, so in my opinion, regular human insulin is ideal for pre-training use in most cases.

My views have changed slightly on pre-worokout insulin use since I first wrote that program a few years back...not to mention that there is no single program that is ideal for everyone. It was more of a generic outline in terms of macro intake and insulin dosage, as I can't possibly take into account everyone's needs with a single program.

Over the last few yeasrs, I have found that better results tend to come from a combination of shakes and whole food, but not together. Instead of consuming all those shakes, I now usually recommend (when the goal is recovery & growth), that hydrolyzed protein/EAA's and branched cyclic dextrins (and anything else you might include, such as leucine, creatine, etc) be used pre and intra workout, with a whole food meal following training.

The qauntities and ratios of macros, as well as insulin dosage, can vary substantially depending on the individual. So, if using a generic template, the goal should always be to fine-tune it so that it is perfectly suited for your own individual needs.


Lastly, in terms of supplementation, some of the things which were in use back then have become a bit outdated with the arrival or new, superior supplements. So, I would not necessarily advise everything which is listed in that program--not anymore.

That's part of the problem with the internet--if you post something, I stays there forever, regardless of how many years go by. I really should provide an updated version at this point.

great post MIKE.
I have a bit of experience with humilin r and I eat a combo of whole foods and shakes when using it and I believe its optimal. I am a fan of insulin. I help a few guys a year and it always helps....
-JS

 

[ironceltic12]

Novolin/Humulin is easier to mangae than humalog...and stays active throughout the enture training window, which ranges from the start of the workout until a few hours afterward, so in my opinion, regular human insulin is ideal for pre-training use in most cases.

My views have changed slightly on pre-worokout insulin use since I first wrote that program a few years back...not to mention that there is no single program that is ideal for everyone. It was more of a generic outline in terms of macro intake and insulin dosage, as I can't possibly take into account everyone's needs with a single program.

Over the last few yeasrs, I have found that better results tend to come from a combination of shakes and whole food, but not together. Instead of consuming all those shakes, I now usually recommend (when the goal is recovery & growth), that hydrolyzed protein/EAA's and branched cyclic dextrins (and anything else you might include, such as leucine, creatine, etc) be used pre and intra workout, with a whole food meal following training.

The qauntities and ratios of macros, as well as insulin dosage, can vary substantially depending on the individual. So, if using a generic template, the goal should always be to fine-tune it so that it is perfectly suited for your own individual needs.


Lastly, in terms of supplementation, some of the things which were in use back then have become a bit outdated with the arrival or new, superior supplements. So, I would not necessarily advise everything which is listed in that program--not anymore.

That's part of the problem with the internet--if you post something, I stays there forever, regardless of how many years go by. I really should provide an updated version at this point.

I and I'm sure many others, would be very interested in seeing your updated version of this.

 

[Pbfanatic321]

Novolin/Humulin is easier to mangae than humalog...and stays active throughout the enture training window, which ranges from the start of the workout until a few hours afterward, so in my opinion, regular human insulin is ideal for pre-training use in most cases.

My views have changed slightly on pre-worokout insulin use since I first wrote that program a few years back...not to mention that there is no single program that is ideal for everyone. It was more of a generic outline in terms of macro intake and insulin dosage, as I can't possibly take into account everyone's needs with a single program.

Over the last few yeasrs, I have found that better results tend to come from a combination of shakes and whole food, but not together. Instead of consuming all those shakes, I now usually recommend (when the goal is recovery & growth), that hydrolyzed protein/EAA's and branched cyclic dextrins (and anything else you might include, such as leucine, creatine, etc) be used pre and intra workout, with a whole food meal following training.

The qauntities and ratios of macros, as well as insulin dosage, can vary substantially depending on the individual. So, if using a generic template, the goal should always be to fine-tune it so that it is perfectly suited for your own individual needs.


Lastly, in terms of supplementation, some of the things which were in use back then have become a bit outdated with the arrival or new, superior supplements. So, I would not necessarily advise everything which is listed in that program--not anymore.

That's part of the problem with the internet--if you post something, I stays there forever, regardless of how many years go by. I really should provide an updated version at this point.

Thank you Mike for chiming in, I appreciate it. You're correct though, overtime things change and your original layout will be there forever.

So if you're only consuming two shakes (pre and intra) and say you take 10iu, so 100 grams of carbs needed, is the 100 covered by the 2 shakes or covered partially by the 2 shakes and then the rest by the meal after training?

I feel like I will consume too many carbs regularly and end up gaining fat, which I why I keep asking these simple questions.

Thank you everyone who has chimed in, I really appreciate it.

 

[Pbfanatic321]

Just make sure you are diluting with 1500ml-2000ml of water in one of those lexan/nalgene bottles. I personally would put 1800ml in it and make sure I drink about 600ml per "stage".

If you try putting HBCD's in a regular shaker etc...you will have issues running to the toilet or feeling very uncomfortable.

Thanks Knight, I was wondering what kind of bottle would be able to fit all the powder I would be tossing in there. And 600ml per "stage" is a good idea, thanks.

 

[heavyhitter]

This makes sense with Humalog. You do this with Humulin?

Ya. Mostly for the glycerol but also cause I train pretty much first thing in the morning and want to have some carbs in the bloodstream

 

[Knight9]

Ya. Mostly for the glycerol but also cause I train pretty much first thing in the morning and want to have some carbs in the bloodstream

I was just pointing out that the original poster was using Nololin R/Humulin...

 

[heavyhitter]

As do I