At what dose of GH should you worry about...

NEMSZ · Oct 23, 2019

Ok so I’m sure this has been asked before or is somewhere in some threads but with our wonderful search function I can’t seem to hone in on anything specific...

So just wondering at what dose of GH should it be a worry for things like enlarged heart tissue, LVH, Cardiomyopathy and things along those lines??

I know there’s a few guys who go beyond the 10iu range and some have even experimented in the 20-30iu range and I know HIV patients get prescribed 18iu/day but does anyone have solid info or tests they’ve done on themselves or seen studies etc? I saw an old study and Im not sure if I interpreted it correctly but it seemed to show improvement with GH on cardiomyopathy patients? Ill see if I can find it again..

little slice · Oct 23, 2019

I imagine there are other factors that come into play that are very controllable e.g blood pressure, etc

NEMSZ · Oct 23, 2019

little slice said:
I imagine there are other factors that come into play that are very controllable e.g blood pressure, etc

Well yea, let’s say that blood pressure is kept under control as well as blood glucose/insulin levels... Healthy eating, cardio etc is all done on a regular basis...

Fit2Serve · Oct 23, 2019

i am gonna guess: supraphysiological dose
but prob not possible to say 4.75iu will enlarge heart but 3.25iu wont ya kno?
-F2S

nothuman · Oct 23, 2019

It will probably take less HGH if you use AAS alongside it to develop those issues. Also, longer durations will open yourself up for those risks as well.

TheOtherOne55 · Oct 23, 2019

nothuman said:
It will probably take less HGH if you use AAS alongside it to develop those issues. Also, longer durations will open yourself up for those risks as well.

Agreed. I think the internal organ enlargement thing is more of a supra physiological levels for prolonged times. And I'm talking high dosages of 10+ ED.

The tough thing to gauge is that we already know the regular exercise increase the LV of our heart. Whether you swim or played college soccer, most athletes have at least part of enlarged heart due to sports.

So that + maybe genetics that give you a genetic propensity to heart problems + high prolonged dosages is a nasty formula. But not everyone has these. It's kind of a plug and play. Super hard to have an accurate answer here.

thethinker48 · Oct 23, 2019

Given the fact that Bp is controlled. Duration + Dosage is probably the biggest factor.

The idea of hypertrophy of the heart muscle is broken down into both a physiological change (which is what we call an athletes heart) and a pathological change (where myocyte hypertrophy leads to dilation of the muscle with no vascular changes ie. Vegf expression for angiogenesis, amongst other things).

You basically get a bigger heart with less contractibility. This is why guys taking GH long term should include cardio as a priority in their program. The positive vascular changes to the heart come from cardio; not 6 rep heavy squats (which do great for your legs, but place more systemic load on the heart on top of taking steroids and GH and peptides etc).

Igf expression in the heart plays a big role here. Hence dosage>. There’s only mice studies done on this topic as far as I could find; Delaughter was one of the authors who found cardiac dysfunction at 52 weeks in mice with fibrosis present in the LV.

I bet how you respond to GH also plays a big role here; if your hepatic conversion to IGF is great, then the residual effects of it on your organs will also be greater.

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NEMSZ · Oct 23, 2019

I get that there’s a lot of variables that come into play and was hoping for an answer most people can come in and relate to but I guess it’s pretty individual, so I’ll ask specifically for myself and what I plan on doing

lol

No blood pressure issues or anything of the like...

So for myself I do cardio 3-4x per week of running for 30-40 minutes and about 3x per week of a cross training type routine (kettlebells, pull ups, dips, push ups, lunges, battle ropes etc)

I eat pretty clean, no fast food or sodas etc ever, no specific diet just make sure to have protein with every meal, eat like 3-4x a day, if I do fuck off it’s usually like a burger from 5 guys or an elk burger I make with some fries and I’ll have sweets like dark chocolate once in a while, lots of fruits and veggies..

AAS: Scripted TRT of 200mg/week Test Cyp (Never plan on going higher than that and after 8 weeks of 200mg I drop to 100mg for 6-8 weeks and then back up)

GH: want to use between 3-4iu ED, nothing crazy and do it for about 6-9 months and then at least 6 months break in between...

I do plan on getting an insulin blood test and a BNP Test before anything though just to be safe.. Any other tests I should get? I get regular bloodwork every 6 months so all of that is up to date but I mean anything specific?

URODA · Oct 23, 2019

I imagine your best choice at monitoring your heart would be an ECG maybe ultrasound to determine it better than what you are mentioning if you are interested in monitoring chances of hypertrophy of the heart.

LK3 · Oct 24, 2019

the last time i spent a good dela of time on gh agents i went from peptides to gh and back to peptides.

i stopped the gh as i got paranoid my feet and forehead where growing! lol
i think the forehead thing was all in my head but....
from that point on all my shoes were very tight.
this was only 3-4 iu or so had been 3-4 months on that dose, 3-6 previous on ghrp/cjc, went back to that.

i prefer the peptide combo, though some of the unknowns make me ponder down the road consequences.

scmtnboy · Oct 24, 2019

I’ve spent the better part of the last 3 years on between 5-7iu per day with only breaks being a few weeks a couple times. My fasted glucose was always good and this rebound after my last show I was pounding food everything was going really good I went to check it and I was at 120. I’ve since dropped the GH and am hoping to recover becise I don’t mind using skin but I don’t want to have to use it. The other thing is it always raises my blood pressure which I have to keep and eye on.

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whacked · Oct 24, 2019

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting.

nothuman · Oct 24, 2019

Posting this again. The study obviously lacks critical information and is a small sample size but this is enough to scare me

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/anabolic-steroids-growth-hormone-hypertrophy-heart/

NEMSZ · Oct 24, 2019

nothuman said:
Posting this again. The study obviously lacks critical information and is a small sample size but this is enough to scare me

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/anabolic-steroids-growth-hormone-hypertrophy-heart/

Interesting and yes, scary, buuuuut lots of things missing there.. Like they don’t specify the GH groups experience, are they the guys doing AAS etc for 1 year or part of the 12 year group (I think we can assume it’s the more experienced guys with more years under their belt) and it also said they used “much” more AAS with the GH than the other guys and some of those were using up to 1g of AAS and not to mention we have no idea what AAS they were using as well... So they could’ve been using 3-4+g of gear or 1.1g of gear. Doesn’t mention the size of these guys either, are they 6’ 200lbs or are they 5’7 250lbs? Which also has an effect on that I’m sure...

And wasn’t there a study done recently talked about in a thread where 4iu of GH was used and it showed longevity? Would simply adding a TRT dose of Test make that go from longevity to dangerous? That would be pretty crazy..

Do you still dabble with GH, Nothuman?

pahlevan · Oct 24, 2019

For Brand name GH, most say not go go over 5 ius. Then of course, there are proponent that says use as much as you an afford!! But speaking to a few coaches they all say 5 iu is safe spread over the day, and longer term.

nothuman · Oct 24, 2019

NEMSZ said:
Interesting and yes, scary, buuuuut lots of things missing there.. Like they don’t specify the GH groups experience, are they the guys doing AAS etc for 1 year or part of the 12 year group (I think we can assume it’s the more experienced guys with more years under their belt) and it also said they used “much” more AAS with the GH than the other guys and some of those were using up to 1g of AAS and not to mention we have no idea what AAS they were using as well... So they could’ve been using 3-4+g of gear or 1.1g of gear. Doesn’t mention the size of these guys either, are they 6’ 200lbs or are they 5’7 250lbs? Which also has an effect on that I’m sure...

And wasn’t there a study done recently talked about in a thread where 4iu of GH was used and it showed longevity? Would simply adding a TRT dose of Test make that go from longevity to dangerous? That would be pretty crazy..

Do you still dabble with GH, Nothuman?

Yea, it's a real shame they didn't specify which AAS or the dose they used.

I almost never use HGH these days, but I do flirt with it's usage every once in a while before backing off. I get scared off by the substantial increase in heart rate it gives and the fact my heart muscle has very little room for error with respect to cardiac growth, just in case it has that effect. I really doubt just a simple TRT dose won't cause the heart enlarging effects of HGH, since we aren't at a supraphysiologic amount. Also, the fact no studies have shown any muscle growth from it.

But the TRIM study on HGH, DHEA, Metformin, Zinc, and I forget what else is really fascinating, so maybe there is still hope for it. Just probably not alongside AAS. But there could be things we could take to combat it. We really don't know. All we can really do is form educated guesses.

Ashop · Oct 24, 2019

There is a clip with Dave Palumbo and Ameen Alai talking about this and I tend to agree with them on staying at right around 4iu for MOST people.

Start @ 28:01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO4tOduAWig

Biggerp73 · Oct 24, 2019

I read a study that was using GH at a mg/kg dosage that worked out to the equivalent of 33iu/day for a 100kg person. Of course this was short duration, done on children. But the doctors didn't see any danger in it, apparently. King Kamali said on an interview recently that he knows some guys doing 50iu/day leading up to shows. Now of course this can lead to problems, Cf. Dallas McCarver, etc. But I think those problems occur when extreme use is prolonged over time, and not just for a few months.