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My Experiment With Sustanon

OuchThatHurts

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Experiment: Sustanon
By OuchThatHurts

Sustanon. Every BBer in the world knows the name. Every “noob” has to try it. But is it a good choice for BBers? Not really. Unless you know what you’re doing and even then you would likely have better and more stable results with less expensive and easier to maintain compounds. Let’s take a look at Sustanon.

Sustanon was originally designed and formulated by Organon as a timed-release compound used for androgen replacement for hypogonadic males, HRT, and all the other uses where androgens are indicated. The difference being that Sustanon (sustained release) was designed to be administered once per month. By combining multiple esters in such a way, starting with shorter chain molecules (propionate) and progressing to longer ones (decanoate), you can design a formula that takes effect almost immediately and releases it’s payload (testosterone) over a length of time.

So let’s look at the esters in Sustanon. Would anyone consider stacking two forms of esterified test in a single cycle? For example, would you combine propionate and enanthate? If so, how would you do it? Would you take 30mg or propionate every other day or twice a week along with 100mg of enanthate at the same time? Of course not! Well not only are you doing that with sust, but with FOUR esters, not just two. Testosterone is testosterone whether your body cleaves it from a short molecule or a long molecule. Many people still think that these different esters of the same organic compound are somehow different or “synergistic”. That’s almost like saying the caffeine in coffee is different than the caffeine in Pepsi. And if you stack coffee and Pepsi you’ll have a more pronounced effect or synergistic effect. There IS a difference but in only one regard and that is that you will get MORE raw test mg/mg with shorter esters than longer ones. The reason for this is simple. The larger the molecule, the more carbons are added which increases the total weight of the molecule. In short, more of the molecule’s weight is taken up by carbon and not testosterone. The additional carbon and occasionally oxygen atoms also increase the compound’s solubility and half-life but that is beyond this article. So what esters are we dealing with in Sustanon?

propionate 30mg (2 days)
phenylpropionate 30mg (4 days)
isocaproate 60mg (9 days)
decanoate 100mg (15 days)

testosteronelevels.jpg

In parenthesis, you see their approximate half lives. It is no coincidence that each ester is roughly twice the quantity of the one before it nor is it coincidental that each half life is approx. double the length of the one before it. Still beyond this article. Moving on…

I decided to experiment with Sustanon after receiving a fairly large quantity. Even though I had plenty, I was still thinking greedily and wanted to get the most out of my testosterone dollar. I started with the twice-a-week approach. A month later, I had no gains, a bad flu, and had used almost 20 amps (1ml) at 250mg/ml. I wanted to know what had gone wrong. It didn’t take long to figure out. During the first week, all that had taken effect was the prop and phenylprop. And 120mg total (out of 500mg) is all that my system saw. That’s about enough to suppress the axis but that’s it. Throw two amps in the trash. The second week, probably not much different and had used 4 amps (1000mg). By the third week I had the flu. Not exactly a surprise with all the HPTA suppression and unstable test levels. Most people have heard of the “sust flu”? Well, there you go. I was beginning to plan a PCT regimen when it dawned on me… I’m not getting enough STABLE, high levels of testosterone! So not long after that I moved everything to the all to common every-other-day (EOD) approach. Don’t get me wrong, I started noticing results but then again, who wouldn’t? This is a shotgun approach! If you had propionate and enanthate would you just keep dosing until something worked? No. You wouldn’t. The idea there is to just keep shooting the stuff and “one of them esters” will eventually work. Personally, I don’t like this approach. I think we can do much better. After all, don’t we owe it to Organon to abuse their product properly? SO… how well did it work? I’d have 3 good days, followed by 3 bad days. I was emotional. I wanted to sleep all the time. I had a runny nose. Two different blood tests during this time proved that I had almost twice the free test in my system as the blood test a week later. By this point, my great buy was turning into a great waste. I took 2 months off, did a fairly aggressive PCT and started planning my next cycle.

Here is where it seemed to all come together. I decided to try taking Sustanon as Organon intended, but in BBer amounts. This meant using it less frequently but using larger doses. Using it as a SUSTained-release product. Again, being greedy like I am, I didn’t want to waste the propionate in the Sust so I scheduled the entire cycle dosage amounts based on what I would take if I was doing a propionate-only cycle. This meant 4 amps or 1000mgs. That gave me a starting dose of 120mg propionate (30mg x 4) and instead of taking the next dose of propionate, I knew I could just relax knowing that as the propionate fell off, the phenylpropionate would begin and as the phenylpropionate fell off, the isocaproate would begin, etc, etc. This worked phenomenal and I began the cycle figuring on every two weeks (one decanoate half life). In reality, I played with this until I found a sweet spot of 8 days (approx. half of a half life). This gave me testosterone levels that remained stable throughout the cycle and at levels that were good for the results I wanted. You may need to adjust this time period to suit your physiology.

Conclusion: If I were to ever use Sustanon in a cycle again, which I doubt since there are less expensive, more stable compounds available, I would use it as intended in BBer amounts. I would do 1000-1500mg once every 8 days. This would allow for it to take immediate effect and with a few additional amps of propionate, you could use it with predictable stability right up until a few days before starting PCT. This dosing regimen, in my opinion, combined with equipoise or nandrolone would be a very productive cycle. Given the choice, I would still stick with enanthate. The injections are usually painless, the stability is high, the half life is fairly long. If you don’t mind EOD injects then prop or phenylprop would also be better choices than Sustanon in my opinion. Especially phenylprop. You would likely have to compound this yourself though as I haven’t seen this ester alone very often except in the case of nandrolone phenylprop (fast-acting deca).

Refs: any Sustanon package insert
 
Awesome OTH. Great stuff. Definately worth the read. ;)
 
Studies can be done to document anything under the sun, but they have their place. They are theory,which is usually a good starting point, but they shouldn't be confused with practical application.

Have you ever seen a study that confirms a bumblebee's ability to fly? There isn't one, by mathematical analysis it shouldn't be possible. Yet it does.

My point is that Sustanon, despite it reputation on paper, is still an excellent BB drug. A lot of guys really love the stuff. Big Kiwi was, I believe, a fan of Sustanon and if I'm not mistaken Big A himself is current using it at 500mg/wk.
 
hmmm. my last one was 250mg of QV 4T (OUCH) on monday and thursday, and i gotta tell you guys i felt great 24 hours a day. i was also taking some deca, but if anything that should have inhibited my libido after a number of weeks... i was having sex with my girl twice a day and jerking off once a day as well. not bad for a 32 year old!

i have always loved sustanon; i respond to it very well. my libido goes through the roof and i make solid gains with very little water retention. i have always done it on a monday/thursday schedule with no loading.

once of my best cycles ever was 4 of those russian "cyctahoh" susts a week, 2 on monday and 2 on friday. this was all i took for 8 weeks and it rocked.

not refuting anything others have said, that has just been my experience.
 
phreak said:
hmmm. my last one was 250mg of QV 4T (OUCH) on monday and thursday, and i gotta tell you guys i felt great 24 hours a day. i was also taking some deca, but if anything that should have inhibited my libido after a number of weeks... i was having sex with my girl twice a day and jerking off once a day as well. not bad for a 32 year old!

i have always loved sustanon; i respond to it very well. my libido goes through the roof and i make solid gains with very little water retention. i have always done it on a monday/thursday schedule with no loading.

once of my best cycles ever was 4 of those russian "cyctahoh" susts a week, 2 on monday and 2 on friday. this was all i took for 8 weeks and it rocked.

not refuting anything others have said, that has just been my experience.
Experience is really what it's all about. Glad to hear yours. Even some of my lifting partners have had great cycles on it. They swear by it. Because they did, I ended up trying it many times. I wish I could have had a better experiences with it. Who doesn't like gains, right?

But I can tell you that when I took a gram, 2cc's in the glute, and 2cc in the quad, the first day, I DID have a good response then which lasted for a good length of time. What I liked is that I didn't have to wait for those first 2-3 long half-lives and guesstimate with a prop front load. i just run a test e split now like you do in relatively the same doses because I can get test e super, super cheap and at least for me, has worked very well.

A lot of factors can contribute to a cycle being great, okay, or lousy. Psychological factors, how many previous cycles, what other compounds are in use, the type of ancillaries, on and on. This is why I just started getting weekly blood tests. I wanted to know exactly what was going on. I had a runny nose, slept all the time, felt depressed, no libido. It was not fun...

This coming winter I might do a cyp/enanthate cycle with wkly blood tests to see how big a difference there really is. Because I definitely notice a difference between them and I shouldn't really.

Thanks for your experience, bro.
 
WOW, what a find!!! I have a question for OuchThatHurts. Would this also apply to Andropen? I'm guessing it would. At the moment i'm takeing 1ml. eod.

My real interest in this is i plan to never come off. Reason?, i'm 48 yrs. it just doesn't make any sence to me to do a pct and bring my levels down to where i have basically no natural test left in me. Now applying your system sounds like just what i have been looking for. I could increase the dosage and add whatever compound for a nice bulking cycle, and than taper down to basicly to a nice comfortable TRT.

This would work particularly nice since i just receaved 10 20ml amps:D
 
faller said:
WOW, what a find!!! I have a question for OuchThatHurts. Would this also apply to Andropen? I'm guessing it would. At the moment i'm takeing 1ml. eod.

My real interest in this is i plan to never come off. Reason?, i'm 48 yrs. it just doesn't make any sence to me to do a pct and bring my levels down to where i have basically no natural test left in me. Now applying your system sounds like just what i have been looking for. I could increase the dosage and add whatever compound for a nice bulking cycle, and than taper down to basicly to a nice comfortable TRT.

This would work particularly nice since i just receaved 10 20ml amps:D
SInce Andropen is a Brit Dragon product it has even more of the shorter chained esters in it. It's formula seems more ideal that for BBers than Sustanon as does Omnadren which similiarly has more of the shorter esters and IMO is also superior. Based on the dosages of mixed esters:

Acetate 20mg (!!!)
Propionate 40mg (!!!)
Phenylpropionate 40mg (!!!)
Cypionate 75mg
Decanoate 90mg

You read my experience. You read what my blood tests showed. if it were me, I'd be doing 2ml's (or 3) on monday and forget about until the next monday. Based on the esters, I'd say you'd have pretty solid, stable levels.

Have you used it before? I haven't used many BD products...

I'll give it a test drive myself if you have good results with it.

Direct quote from AR... hope he doesn't mind:

"Andropen is a five-ester blend of testosterone produced by British Dragon, and is clearly an attempt to profit off of the popularity of Sustanon. Actually, if you are inclined to use blended products such as this (and personally, I’m not anymore), then I think you’ll find this to be a product far superior to Sustanon.

Andropen contains 20mgs of Testosterone Acetate, 75mgs of Testosterone Cypionate, 90mgs of Testosterone Decanoate, and 40mgs each of Testosterone Propionate and Phenylpropionate in a 20ml bottle. I am very impressed with the fact that this product appears to be designed specifically for bodybuilders and athletes, and certainly if I wanted to create a long, medium, and short estered testosterone product, it would be something like this one."
 
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I plan on doing just that, once every 7 or 8 days. I have been running into the same thing, my poundages are going up but my weight has leveled off, i'm into week 7.

No i have never used Andropen before, accually this is my first cycle in 25 years. Did lots in the early 80's (when i least need to) but now that age is setting in i figure i need a bit of help.

I hope you don't mind but i cut and pasted your post on the board i call home, lotsa guys use Andropen there so this will definitely open a can of worms. Its a fairly new board but lots of good people there. If you are interested in takeing a look over there let me know and i'll give you the name,you obviously know what you are talking about.
 
faller said:
I plan on doing just that, once every 7 or 8 days. I have been running into the same thing, my poundages are going up but my weight has leveled off, i'm into week 7.

No i have never used Andropen before, accually this is my first cycle in 25 years. Did lots in the early 80's (when i least need to) but now that age is setting in i figure i need a bit of help.

I hope you don't mind but i cut and pasted your post on the board i call home, lotsa guys use Andropen there so this will definitely open a can of worms. Its a fairly new board but lots of good people there. If you are interested in takeing a look over there let me know and i'll give you the name,you obviously know what you are talking about.

If it's your first in 25 years, your gonna feel like a new man... Hope your little lady is prepared... ;) Good luck on your cycle.
 
Kaiser said:
If it's your first in 25 years, your gonna feel like a new man... Hope your little lady is prepared... ;) Good luck on your cycle.
He totally is! Not long from now, I'll be his age and I KNOW I'll be on a maintenance dose for life. Because I need to be? No. Because I want to be! Why spend the 2nd half walking around with a cane when you can be pissing people off by dating girls half your age? Gosh I hope my g/f NEVER sees this forum... I would need some HCG FOR SURE then! LOL

Brrr.... get chills just thinking about it!
 
It has already happened, i'm starting into week 7 and my wife of 28 years jokeingly said the other day she is scared to come home:D My libido is definitly up.

I'v been getting some resistance on my home board bout your article Ouch,so starting tuesday i will be takeing a 4 ml shot and see how it goes. Haven't decided on the days yet, it will be somewhere between 7 and 10 days. I'm quit excited bout it though.
 
On another subject, this board must have had an upgrade or something. I tried comeing on here a couple months ago and it was so slow i finally gave up. Glad it was fixed, nice board.
 
agree

tbolking said:
i prefer test E for all my occasion's:D
Bump that... agree 100%
 
As info....

Here is the information about dosing Sustanon for stable blood test levels that I referred to:


Effects of Sustanon250 on Blood T levels
M/W/F injections

Day.Mg.....................T level
1 ...250 .......................238
2 ...0 ..........................201
3 ...250 .......................409
4 ...0 ..........................346
5 ...250 .......................532
6 ...0 ..........................451
7 ...0 ..........................384
8 ...250 .......................566
9 ...0 ..........................480
10...250 .......................646
11...0 ..........................547
12...250 .......................703
13...0 ..........................595
14...0 ..........................507
15...250 .......................672
16...0 ..........................569
17...250 .......................722
18...0 ..........................611
19...250 .......................758
20...0 ..........................642
21...0 ..........................547
22...250 .......................706
23...0 ..........................598
24...250 .......................747
25...0 ..........................632
26...250 .......................776
27...0 ..........................657
28...0 ..........................560
29...250 .......................717
30...0 ..........................607
31...250 .......................755
32...0 ..........................639
33...250 .......................782
34...0 ..........................662
35...0 ..........................564
36...250 .......................721
37...0 ..........................610
38...250 .......................757
39...0 ..........................641
40...250 .......................784
41...0 ..........................663
42...0 ..........................656
43...250 .......................722
44...0 ..........................611
45...250 .......................758
46...0 ..........................642
47...250 .......................784
48...0 ..........................664
49...250 .......................566
50...250 .......................722
51...0 ..........................611
52...250 .......................758
53...0 ..........................642
54...250 .......................784
55...0 ..........................664
56...0...........................566

Effects of Sustanon250 on Blood T Levels
ED Injections

Day..........Mg.......................T Level
1 .............200 .......................190
2 .............200 .......................351
3 .............200 .......................487
4 .............150 .......................555
5 .............150 .......................612
6 .............100 .......................613
7 .............100 .......................614
8 .............100 .......................615
9 .............100 .......................616
11............100 .......................617
12............100 .......................617
13............100 .......................617
14............100 .......................618
15............100 .......................618
16............100 .......................618
17............100 .......................618
18............100 .......................618
19............100 .......................618
20............100 .......................619
21............100 .......................619
22............100 .......................619
23............100 .......................619
24............100 .......................619
25............100 .......................619
26............100 .......................619
27............100 .......................619
28............100 .......................619
29............100 .......................619
30............100 .......................619
31............100 .......................619
32............100 .......................619
33............100 .......................619
34............100 .......................619
35............100 .......................619
36............100 .......................619
37............100 .......................619
38............100 .......................619
39............100 .......................619
40............100 .......................619
41............100 .......................619
42............100 .......................619
43............100 .......................619
44............100 .......................619
45............100 .......................619
46............100 .......................619
47............100 .......................619
48............100 .......................619
49............100 .......................619
50............100 .......................619
51............100 .......................619
52............100 .......................619
53............100 .......................619
54............100 .......................619
55............100 .......................619
56............100 .......................619


Hope that helps you guys. I know ED injections suck, but if stable blood test levels are what you are shooting for this is the way.


OTH, why do you keep deleting my posts? Show me where a violation of board rules has taken place.
 
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terryd5150 said:
Here is the information about dosing Sustanon for stable blood test levels that I referred to


Hope that helps you guys. I know ED injections suck, but if stable blood test levels are what you are shooting for this is the way.


OTH, why do you keep deleting my posts? Show me where a violation of board rules has taken place.
Where is this information from? Who did these measurements? I would be inclined to think that ED would be preferable to EOD or biweekly but that would apply to any testosterone product. I did not try ED, only EOD and biweekly. I still will continue to use my own method as that is what worked well for me. I don't care for the product as I don't believe it's as effective to combine such short esters with extremely long ones. You disagree. It's on the record.

I don't know which post exactly you are referring to but since this is the articles forum I deleted the posts I felt strayed away from the topic and were just personal in nature. It's important for the sake of continuity that you keep your personal feelings out of the thread. The article stands "as is" no guarantees, just my experience. If you have another opinion THEN WRITE YOUR OWN ARTICLE. You over 300 posts on this board and how many informational threads have you started? Zero. Neither myself or the members need to hear your personal opinions of me, as a mod, or a person. If you want to write a "I HATE OTH" article than write it up. I don't have the time to show you anything nor am I likely to. It's not important enough to me that you have personal issues with me. If you have an issue, write another mod and see what advice they give you. I have no problem with that either.
 
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OuchThatHurts said:
Where is this information from? Who did these measurements? I would be inclined to think that ED would be preferable to EOD or biweekly but that would apply to any testosterone product. I did not try ED, only EOD and biweekly. I still will continue to use my own method as that is what worked well for me. I don't care for the product as I don't believe it's as effective to combine such short esters with extremely long ones. You disagree. It's on the record.

QUOTE]
As you know OTH, i have been doseing Andropen, 4 ml. every 10 days with great results...Though i think i will try every 8 days.

But what i am interested in is the numbers that terryd5150 posted. I have seen these floating around on other boards.To me they just do not make any sense. Imo the esters are not taken into consideration.

Terryd5150, how did these numbers come about? Is it just someone with a calculator, throwing numbers around, or did someone have blood test done, and this is the results?

I would be very interested in your reply, thanks.
 
faller said:
As you know OTH, i have been doseing Andropen, 4 ml. every 10 days with great results...Though i think i will try every 8 days.

But what i am interested in is the numbers that terryd5150 posted. I have seen these floating around on other boards.To me they just do not make any sense. Imo the esters are not taken into consideration.

Terryd5150, how did these numbers come about? Is it just someone with a calculator, throwing numbers around, or did someone have blood test done, and this is the results?

I would be very interested in your reply, thanks.
Yes. I've seen these numbers as well. They can be achieved with any of the different calculators (roidcalc for instance). Actually, in this case, the esters are the only thing taken into consideration. You take a compound, plug in the half lives of the esters, a dosing shedule, and wallah! These are your blood levels. I'm not sure how closely they are to the actual numbers though. There are many factors not considered. Test doesn't just get released and then gone. It can linger for some time depending on many factors... aromatization (DHT and estrogen conversion via 5-alpha reductase), receptor binding, etc. Even personal chemistry. That's why I mentioned proviron in the other thread because it allows test to remain free longer by binding to the aromatase enzyme and preventing conversion... and you want as much free test as possible.
 
Hooold on....

So you are saying you can inject Sustanon at 1500mg ONCE every 8 days, and itl remain 1600-1800 blood levels for the entire 12 weeks????
 
TP4U,
No, not at all. All I am saying is that over the three weeks mentioned, my levels remained higher and seemingly (and measurably) more stable than doing smaller amounts, more frequently and I finished off my cycle and subsequent cycle with excellent results and feeling very good with good strength and weight increase. Apparantly, for at least myself, the high initial dose (and resulting plasma concentration) and slow rolloff until the next dose worked well for me. If you wanted to achieve a TT of 1600-1800ng/dL and stay within that specific range it would be difficult with any compound but you could do it if you got tested enough. You would probably have to take a very specific dose fairly frequently (maybe even multiple times per day). What I assume is happening is that the higher dose dissipates more slowly and remains in oil for longer than the halflives would suggest. At that dose, it is likely that there is still a fair quantity of still-esterified test in your system even at 3-5 days and perhaps even some in oil.

Again, just my personal experience and it wasn't good. I'm more inclined now to stick with a single esters of test and use propionate on the backend to avoid a prolonged wait into therapy (if you do plan to come off) which I always do. But I don't do time on=time off either. No way I'm going 4-6 months without testosterone. Not if I can help it. So take with a grain of salt. It is not a definitive case study and the only subject I had was myself. But nevertheless, IMO, still worthy of consideration.
 

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