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new thoughts on estrogen control

LK3

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we have literally 5 + posts on this page alone that discus potential estrogen issues.

knight9 posted this link in another thread and i found it to be one of the best pieces of info i have listened to in a while.

i strongly recommend giving it a listen, it contradicts with science a lot of our bro science and quite a bit of what we consider "real" science.

from reading and listening to various other things over the past few years i first lowered my use of adex and nolva and finally dropped all together over the past year 18 months.

after listening to the clip below things made some more sense. i even sleep better! for the last 6+ months no sleep aides that were previously essential.

any way thank knight9 for this one, and really give it a listen:lightbulb::lightbulb:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB_aFq9O0Tc"]The Role of Estradiol in Fat Accumulation & Sexual Function w/Dr. Neal Rouzier | TOT Revolution - YouTube[/ame]
 
Very curious to hearing some of the response's from some of the smarter one's on this board about this video. Stewie, Kaladryn, Dante etc.
 
There are a LOT of strange things that go on with the prostate, for example there are some forms of prostate cancer that are inhibited by supraphysiological doses of testosterone. This study was done on people with a certain level of BPH, this doesn't mean it would apply to people without BPH.

There are studies that show that E2 promotes and inhibits BPH and there are studies that show that test promotes and inhibits BPH.

I hate the way this guy talks.

AIs are necessary on high doses of testosterone, AIs should NOT be used for TRT, you just have to only take a physiological dose and you don't need an AI.
 
Last edited:
There are a LOT of strange things that go on with the prostate, for example there are some forms of prostate cancer that are inhibited by supraphysiological doses of testosterone. This study was done on people with a certain level of BPH, this doesn't mean it would apply to people without BPH.

There are studies that show that E2 promotes and inhibits BPH and there are studies that show that test promotes and inhibits BPH.

I hate the way this guy talks.

AIs are necessary on high doses of testosterone, AIs should NOT be used for TRT, you just have to only take a physiological dose and you don't need an AI.


I agree with your statement for the most part, especially when taking high dosages of test. Usage of an AI would be undoubtedly necessary. However as you know in this game it isn’t a one size fits all so it really boils down to how that individual responds to the dosage regardless of how high or low it is. Different strokes for different folks...

Just to play devil’s advocate.. What if someone aromatizes easily? Even on TRT dosage? Light use of an AI would be required to keep the estrogen in check. I have a friend on Dr prescribed TRT and has to use 0.5mg of Adex 2x weekly due to his estrogen creeping up a bit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I agree with your statement for the most part, especially when taking high dosages of test. Usage of an AI would be undoubtedly necessary. However as you know in this game it isn’t a one size fits all so it really boils down to how that individual responds to the dosage regardless of how high or low it is. Different strokes for different folks...

Just to play devil’s advocate.. What if someone aromatizes easily? Even on TRT dosage? Light use of an AI would be required to keep the estrogen in check. I have a friend on Dr prescribed TRT and has to use 0.5mg of Adex 2x weekly due to his estrogen creeping up a bit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But the question is, is he on the Adex just to bring a number down, or because that estradiol is causing symptoms?

I let my patients' estradiol rise with their test level, and as long as they FEEL good, I try not to use AI's due to their numerous possible issues. There's no real "normal" estradiol for males, regardless of what some say. (I know Dr. Rand says 20-30). For myself, my estradiol gets up to 60 or so and i feel fine on that without symptoms.

I think it's very individual. But i definitely think AI's are overused. Lots of TRT docs immediately put guys on Adex from the get-go, and I see that as a mistake.

I've had numerous patients come to me who have been on that protocol, and they feel awful, so the first thing we do is stop the Adex and reassess in a few weeks.
 
I agree with your statement for the most part, especially when taking high dosages of test. Usage of an AI would be undoubtedly necessary. However as you know in this game it isn’t a one size fits all so it really boils down to how that individual responds to the dosage regardless of how high or low it is. Different strokes for different folks...

Just to play devil’s advocate.. What if someone aromatizes easily? Even on TRT dosage? Light use of an AI would be required to keep the estrogen in check. I have a friend on Dr prescribed TRT and has to use 0.5mg of Adex 2x weekly due to his estrogen creeping up a bit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aromatase upregulates when you take a TRT dose outside of what YOUR physiological level is, not the level you want or the "normal" range. When you are 40 years old and you are trying to have your test level in the 800-900+, you are probably going to aromatize too much, if you keep it in the 600-700 range, you are probably going to be fine without an AI.

Also, aromatase is in fat cells, obese men have estradiol levels equal to women.
 
have you heard the term p-hacking? HARKing?
so many "experts" with contradictory "results"
wonder why.
 
Thanks for the link LK3

all thanks go to knight9 on this one.

just found it intersting as it contradicts with some solid info things we take for granted. myself included.

i have always thought i was very e sensitive and for many years lived with adex and nolva. i havent used more then 300mgs t in years and from listening to some john meadows stuff began to play with it on my own. i feel better in many ways and look better, cant say its all from this one thing but probably it comes into play.

in all honesty inspite of what this guy says i dont think i would run high dose of test without something, but i have no plans to run high test in anyway, lol

either way good food for thought

thanks knight!
 
I agree with your statement for the most part, especially when taking high dosages of test. Usage of an AI would be undoubtedly necessary. However as you know in this game it isn’t a one size fits all so it really boils down to how that individual responds to the dosage regardless of how high or low it is. Different strokes for different folks...

Just to play devil’s advocate.. What if someone aromatizes easily? Even on TRT dosage? Light use of an AI would be required to keep the estrogen in check. I have a friend on Dr prescribed TRT and has to use 0.5mg of Adex 2x weekly due to his estrogen creeping up a bit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Anyone who aromatizes easily should be pinning daily. Start at 10mg and experiment up slowly from there.
 
Everyone is different.

100mg Test E with 500iu HCG (split into two weekly shots) with no AI, as a trial, since everyone kept whining and complaining that I was tanking my estrogen,

well, that dose puts me at 790ng/dl and a sensitive e2 reading of 32

Not bad, right? Right..... except my penis wouldn't even move, it was like a rubber appendage. Add in 1/4 of aromasin daily, a little better, some night time erections, add in 1/2 an aromasin daily, PERFECT. Walking erection 24/7, more energy, feel great.

Of course this is wrong according to almost everyone but I'd rather be able to have sex even if it means skewing the research results.
 
Everyone is different. Some people need a ton of ai some people don’t need much. I’m on 1g of test and I haven’t taken any ai in a month. I’ll take one here and there but never steady dose. But that’s offseason, dieting yes I’ll take more ai,
 
TRT, is "Replacement" therapy.
Just that, done to replace your natural production of testosterone at an optimal level to feel and perform optimally.
It is my opinion like others have stated above that if TRT is the objective, AI's should not be a part of the therapy. TRT is a long-term project and you do not need to be using more chemicals than need to over a long period of time as they have consequences to.
There is no such thing as "easy aromatizer", but there are reasons that will cause and individual to aromatize more at a given period of time (I.e. AI use, cultivation of Aromatase enzyme due to higher dosage response, type of PED used and many others...). If you taking your TRT requirements and you are aromatizing excessively this is due to other factors, maintain you T levels in range and your body WILL adapt/normalize/balance out and bring things into a ratio quickest WITHOUT use of an AI. Keep in mind, E receptors, just like androgen receptors, opioid receptors, dopamine receptors etc... UP REGULATE, yes you read that right UP REGULATE quickly at that too in response to elevated E. So now when you come off your cycle, and go on TRT your body may be in a balanced aromatic state (E within range as the gent above)BUUUT you will get all the side effect because you are more E sensitive due to you UP REGULATED receptor count in response to your previous E levels. Administering the an AI now will only work for a short period as you now are not addressing elevated E, but the effects of elevated E receptors by lowering your E (that is in range now) to a sub optimal level delaying your recovery. So what is the quickest way to down regulate them back in range? Commitment to staying on TRT dosage and TIME. The use of AI will only delay bringing the Aromatase enzyme in range...that’s another story.
Moving on to HCG, again in my opinion HCG has NO place in TRT. If you need HCG to feel good on TRT, then your TRT dosage needs to be looked at and maybe increased... again, another discussion but HCG is like jump starting your car, its best used for that purpose to mimic LH/FSH signal not to continually support your TRT. HCG will raise both T and E when administered, the T will fall quickly and the E will remain elevated due to it longer half life, after a while you will only be elevating E and back to what I said earlier taking AI's etc... and, rendering your TRT experience unpleasant.
In Short, if you commit to TRT, do it! It took years for you to normalize during puberty, your are now going down that same road but you have other factors working against you so give your body TIME to achieve homeostasis around your required dose.
 
But the question is, is he on the Adex just to bring a number down, or because that estradiol is causing symptoms?



I let my patients' estradiol rise with their test level, and as long as they FEEL good, I try not to use AI's due to their numerous possible issues. There's no real "normal" estradiol for males, regardless of what some say. (I know Dr. Rand says 20-30). For myself, my estradiol gets up to 60 or so and i feel fine on that without symptoms.



I think it's very individual. But i definitely think AI's are overused. Lots of TRT docs immediately put guys on Adex from the get-go, and I see that as a mistake.



I've had numerous patients come to me who have been on that protocol, and they feel awful, so the first thing we do is stop the Adex and reassess in a few weeks.



This was a while back but if I recall correctly he was feeling a bit off. Think his estro was around 55 give or take.. also I’m not sure if adex was prescribed then or a bit before when it was creeping up and he didn’t take it initially.

Personally if I get past 35 I feel off. Somewhere around 27-32 is my sweet spot. But again like I said it’s different strokes for different folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Aromatase upregulates when you take a TRT dose outside of what YOUR physiological level is, not the level you want or the "normal" range. When you are 40 years old and you are trying to have your test level in the 800-900+, you are probably going to aromatize too much, if you keep it in the 600-700 range, you are probably going to be fine without an AI.

Also, aromatase is in fat cells, obese men have estradiol levels equal to women.



Before I ever started gear my natural T levels were around 950.. think one time it read 1k...

All I’m saying is it’s not a one size fits all like you’re seeming to say. Hence why different dosages work for different people. And some compounds work well whereas other compounds people cannot tolerate. Yes I went beyond the test spectrum but it’s relevant because it’s showing you can’t say this one protocol works for everyone because people’s body work in slightly different ways which makes a big difference off paper


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Moving on to HCG, again in my opinion HCG has NO place in TRT. If you need HCG to feel good on TRT, then your TRT dosage needs to be looked at and maybe increased... again, another discussion but HCG is like jump starting your car, its best used for that purpose to mimic LH/FSH signal not to continually support your TRT. HCG will raise both T and E when administered, the T will fall quickly and the E will remain elevated due to it longer half life, after a while you will only be elevating E and back to what I said earlier taking AI's etc... and, rendering your TRT experience unpleasant.

This I find interesting, because I hate HCG. I take it purely out of fear of people claiming their testicles are the size of raisins etc. (which to this day I have no idea if that's a joke or if it's a legit claim). I don't want kids with a passion so the only "benefit" is actually a huge con for me, a con that is pretty expensive, is a pain to mix and makes e2 and even more difficult target to hit.

What's your view on that, is there any benefit other than fertility to HCG? This is going off-topic but is the cosmetic issue actually that bad over time? I've only gone off HCG for about 6-8 months, the other three years I've been on.... I can't tell a difference at all in the size of mine, but it's only 8 months or so.
 
Before I ever started gear my natural T levels were around 950.. think one time it read 1k...

All I’m saying is it’s not a one size fits all like you’re seeming to say. Hence why different dosages work for different people. And some compounds work well whereas other compounds people cannot tolerate. Yes I went beyond the test spectrum but it’s relevant because it’s showing you can’t say this one protocol works for everyone because people’s body work in slightly different ways which makes a big difference off paper


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Less than 2% of young adults have a level that high and it goes down with age. I doubt your levels would be that high in your 40s and it's unlikely in your 30s, it's also likely you have a pituitary tumor giving you unusually high LH levels.
 
I agree with Rogue on HCG, it just messes with your hormones and screws up levels when you are trying to do proper low dose TRT.
 
TRT, is "Replacement" therapy.
Just that, done to replace your natural production of testosterone at an optimal level to feel and perform optimally.
It is my opinion like others have stated above that if TRT is the objective, AI's should not be a part of the therapy. TRT is a long-term project and you do not need to be using more chemicals than need to over a long period of time as they have consequences to.
There is no such thing as "easy aromatizer", but there are reasons that will cause and individual to aromatize more at a given period of time (I.e. AI use, cultivation of Aromatase enzyme due to higher dosage response, type of PED used and many others...). If you taking your TRT requirements and you are aromatizing excessively this is due to other factors, maintain you T levels in range and your body WILL adapt/normalize/balance out and bring things into a ratio quickest WITHOUT use of an AI. Keep in mind, E receptors, just like androgen receptors, opioid receptors, dopamine receptors etc... UP REGULATE, yes you read that right UP REGULATE quickly at that too in response to elevated E. So now when you come off your cycle, and go on TRT your body may be in a balanced aromatic state (E within range as the gent above)BUUUT you will get all the side effect because you are more E sensitive due to you UP REGULATED receptor count in response to your previous E levels. Administering the an AI now will only work for a short period as you now are not addressing elevated E, but the effects of elevated E receptors by lowering your E (that is in range now) to a sub optimal level delaying your recovery. So what is the quickest way to down regulate them back in range? Commitment to staying on TRT dosage and TIME. The use of AI will only delay bringing the Aromatase enzyme in range...that’s another story.
Moving on to HCG, again in my opinion HCG has NO place in TRT. If you need HCG to feel good on TRT, then your TRT dosage needs to be looked at and maybe increased... again, another discussion but HCG is like jump starting your car, its best used for that purpose to mimic LH/FSH signal not to continually support your TRT. HCG will raise both T and E when administered, the T will fall quickly and the E will remain elevated due to it longer half life, after a while you will only be elevating E and back to what I said earlier taking AI's etc... and, rendering your TRT experience unpleasant.
In Short, if you commit to TRT, do it! It took years for you to normalize during puberty, your are now going down that same road but you have other factors working against you so give your body TIME to achieve homeostasis around your required dose.
Check your inbox please :)
 
I wrote about this 3 days ago on G'up newsgroup and ill just cut and paste here....I had a for and against counterargument

For: There is a very very fast moving movement going on in the TRT world....that is going to no doubt be brought over to the bodybuilding world....I promise you this. It goes against the grain and thought of a great many bodybuilders and your going to hear the bodybuilding community resist this and yell bullshit at the top of their lungs......but the more the literature is presented the more it looks like we (bodybuilders) and the TRT community have been dead wrong about trying to keep estrogen levels lower and the use of AI's. If you look at something such as endothelial dysfunction for one example....if you have low testosterone compared to people with normal to high testosterone, your heading for a heart attack over time with low testosterone.

And the same goes for estrogen....endothelial dysfunction is improved with estrogen values. And its not just endothelial dysfunction but there is a myriad of science being presented of late showing why you should not be using an AI.....and why it quite possibly could be highly detrimental to your health (HPTA/Libido/cardiovascular/heart/arteriosclerosis).....Now im not saying people who are using WAY over normal dosages of compounds should let their estrogen levels get into the stratosphere....but its starting to look like (and this isnt a couple well known experts in the TRT field but the top dogs) there is a mass agreement that this AI route was the wrong path to be on and we all should take a second look at it.

The studies showing the dire effects of high estrogen on the cardiovascular system were true but they were all done on people who had low testosterone (which as said previously is a huge problem for your cardiovascular system)......just letting the members of G'up know there is a huge upswell in this thought process of late....some of the information I personally recognize as no doubt valid and legit and everyone was wrong....and some of the theories from these experts I have a problem with (there is a gynecomastia explanation that Im not in agreement with......simply because we all know hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders who trained natural and ate a certain way for many years who didnt have gyno, and then when they went over to the "enhanced" side then developed gyno while still eating the same as when they were natural.)

You guys in here who have been following this development will know exactly what I am talking about and why i have a problem with these doctors explanation of why bodybuilders get gynecomastia (and you might agree or disagree with their theory also).....anyway its going to come over to the bodybuilding community soon enough because its so being talked about in the TRT community right now. People are really taking a strong second look at AI's and that the effects that people use them for, could possibly be complete opposite and damaging health. I'M still on the fence on some things.
 

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