Supplements (or activities) that raise hematocrit

[nothuman]

I've gone deep into this for my own sake, so I figured I would share what I found and also to see if anyone knows more about this than I do.

Selfhacked is a site I am very fond of and stumbled upon this article here
https://selfhacked.com/blog/increase-decrease-red-blood-cells/#Ways_to_Decrease_RBC_Levels

Under "ways to increase RBC", section 10 lists things that raise EPO. I take several of these things and had zero knowledge of them potentially raising EPO.

Astragalus is one
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21309574

Beet Juice is another
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22588047?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425174/

Spirulina
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012879/

Rhodiola (this is disappointing because it's one of my favorite supplements)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920561/

The sauna is even in there, which I've use daily for several months now
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16877041

In a separate article, I found taurine raises hemoglobin (I saw other data but I'll just post this chart)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...urine-supplemented-and-control_fig1_267393086

more on that: Life extension article (scroll to very bottom): https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/heart-circulatory/blood-disorders/page-01


So now I can't help but wonder whether all of these things add up and can raise my H/H a few points.

Posting this for general knowledge and also whether anyone knows more about any of this. My inclination to stop taking these things and haven't decided about the sauna yet. It is possible the effect is minimal in people without anemia, but I don't know.

 

[Ashop]

I'm pretty sure that smoking can raise RBC/HEMATOCRIT

 

[aphextwin]

I don't it makes that much of a difference. It doesn't affect me so I'm not sweating it.

 

[crunchy]

DHB raised mine a bit last year

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I've gone deep into this for my own sake, so I figured I would share what I found and also to see if anyone knows more about this than I do.

Selfhacked is a site I am very fond of and stumbled upon this article here
https://selfhacked.com/blog/increase-decrease-red-blood-cells/#Ways_to_Decrease_RBC_Levels

Under "ways to increase RBC", section 10 lists things that raise EPO. I take several of these things and had zero knowledge of them potentially raising EPO.

Astragalus is one
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21309574

Beet Juice is another
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22588047?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425174/

Spirulina
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012879/

Rhodiola (this is disappointing because it's one of my favorite supplements)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920561/

The sauna is even in there, which I've use daily for several months now
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16877041

In a separate article, I found taurine raises hemoglobin (I saw other data but I'll just post this chart)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...urine-supplemented-and-control_fig1_267393086

more on that: Life extension article (scroll to very bottom): https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/heart-circulatory/blood-disorders/page-01


So now I can't help but wonder whether all of these things add up and can raise my H/H a few points.

Posting this for general knowledge and also whether anyone knows more about any of this. My inclination to stop taking these things and haven't decided about the sauna yet. It is possible the effect is minimal in people without anemia, but I don't know.

I know your searching for this ultimate answer to all this.....and I agree vitamin C/etc and watching your heme iron intake etc can help in this matter.....but your searching for everything under the sun and the truth of the matter is this: Do you know whats raising your hematocrit? Juice/Testosterone
Thats what is raising your hematocrit.
Dump that and im willing to bet anything that your hematocrit goes back down in range.
So you need to decide what is of extreme importance to you here. If you feel your life is in danger yet you continue to do the very thing that is putting it in danger (Juice/Testosterone).....you are putting vanity over reasoning.

Do i think if you were natural and taking beet juice you would have 60 hematocrit. No, no you wouldnt.

Your AAS/Test intake is doing this.

If you feel your life is in danger, why are you continuing to juice and looking for everything else that isnt the culprit?

This is what i think....I dont think the MT2 helped one bit in this problem....if this was me and i was that worried about it.....I would use GH only for awhile.......and absolutely no juice/AAS at all and i would retest in 3-4 months....and see where the hematocrit is....its most likely going to be back down in range....and at that point I would micro and i mean micro dose testosterone to find your sweet spot of where you need to be to keep it at 55 or below.

If thats not an option then maybe i would do a lil nolv (or if you can mentally deal with it..clomid) during this 3-4 month clear out period with gh and at that time 3-4 months again try to find the sweet spot with low dose test you need to be at

If thats not an option then i would find a very progressive minded doctor no matter what i had to do and tell him straight on out "I am freaking worried about my hematocrit...I want to use testosterone....do i need to regularly phlebotomize in your opinion? Lets fix this problem".....your working so hard to figure out if beet juice is raising your hematocrit when you and everyone else in here knows its your testosterone/AAS usage that is doing it. Take that hard work in looking into beet juice and find a doc that is up on the latest studies and progression of TRT and study his ethos as it regards hematocrit. It looks like you are willing to risk your own intuition of potential death and continue doing AAS/Testosterone....contact Neal Rouzier or one of his associates and tell them you would like to be under their guidance.....thats what I would do instead of driving yourself nuts with this stuff.

 

[nothuman]

I know your searching for this ultimate answer to all this.....and I agree vitamin C/etc and watching your heme iron intake etc can help in this matter.....but your searching for everything under the sun and the truth of the matter is this: Do you know whats raising your hematocrit? Juice/Testosterone
Thats what is raising your hematocrit.
Dump that and im willing to bet anything that your hematocrit goes back down in range.
So you need to decide what is of extreme importance to you here. If you feel your life is in danger yet you continue to do the very thing that is putting it in danger (Juice/Testosterone).....you are putting vanity over reasoning.

Do i think if you were natural and taking beet juice you would have 60 hematocrit. No, no you wouldnt.

Your AAS/Test intake is doing this.

If you feel your life is in danger, why are you continuing to juice and looking for everything else that isnt the culprit?

This is what i think....I dont think the MT2 helped one bit in this problem....if this was me and i was that worried about it.....I would use GH only for awhile.......and absolutely no juice/AAS at all and i would retest in 3-4 months....and see where the hematocrit is....its most likely going to be back down in range....and at that point I would micro and i mean micro dose testosterone to find your sweet spot of where you need to be to keep it at 55 or below.

If thats not an option then maybe i would do a lil nolv (or if you can mentally deal with it..clomid) during this 3-4 month clear out period with gh and at that time 3-4 months again try to find the sweet spot with low dose test you need to be at

If thats not an option then i would find a very progressive minded doctor no matter what i had to do and tell him straight on out "I am freaking worried about my hematocrit...I want to use testosterone....do i need to regularly phlebotomize in your opinion? Lets fix this problem".....your working so hard to figure out if beet juice is raising your hematocrit when you and everyone else in here knows its your testosterone/AAS usage that is doing it. Take that hard work in looking into beet juice and find a doc that is up on the latest studies and progression of TRT and study his ethos as it regards hematocrit. It looks like you are willing to risk your own intuition of potential death and continue doing AAS/Testosterone....contact Neal Rouzier or one of his associates and tell them you would like to be under their guidance.....thats what I would do instead of driving yourself nuts with this stuff.

I just messaged you back and I do think it's just testosterone but I want to get that sleep apnea test so I can rule that out before I decide what I want to do. You're right about it driving me bonkers.

 

[j2048b]

I just messaged you back and I do think it's just testosterone but I want to get that sleep apnea test so I can rule that out before I decide what I want to do. You're right about it driving me bonkers.

Its been causing me to go bonkers as well, NO not ur hematocrit but mine alone, off trt for over 1-1.5 yrs w low test, and now going to an endo and back to my phlebotomist to see if we can find out some answers....

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Elvia1023]

I see your logic but at the same time do agree with Dante. You are taking something (testosterone) all year that is known to increase HCT even at TRT doses. It's shown in pretty much every clinical study on the subject. It's like someone with liver issues taking out various hormones and supps but staying on adrol hoping their liver values improve. I think it's worth trying though and again 100% see the logic. If someone was taking x amount of supps that may have an effect on HCT obviously taking them away will definitely help. Even if it's just a few % it would help. But the fact remains the testesterone will likely always be giving you issues so it will be an uphill battle regardless what else you take out.

So you are researching everything that you take and connections to HCT and if there is some evidence you remove them. I just think this comes back to something I have messaged to you in the past and that's the sheer amounts of supps you take all year. I know most of them are beneficial in many ways but everytime you will have an issue in the future (which only get more common as we get older) you have a massive list of possibilities. I know your health is important and why you stress about these things so much and this is the only reason I bring this up again. I don't mean to piss you off but I would go back to the basics if I were you.

Although as posted it's likely the testosterone so even on no supps you could have the same HCT issues. Do you think you could regain your test if you came off? I doubt you could do that (I couldn't). Clomid could be an option if you handle it well. I have read plenty of studies showing clomid to have similar effects to testosterone on serum test levels without the associated risks of polycythemia. Even if just for 3-4 months it would be worth trying just to see what drop you notice in HCT.

 

[Elvia1023]

A Comparison of Secondary Polycythemia in Hypogonadal Men Treated with Clomiphene Citrate versus Testosterone Replacement: A Multi-Institutional Study.

Wheeler KM1, Smith RP2, Kumar RA3, Setia S2, Costabile RA2, Kavoussi PK4.

Author information

1Department of Urology, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. Electronic address: [email protected].2Department of Urology, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia.3Burnett School for Biomedical Sciences, University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida.4Department of Reproductive Urology, Austin Fertility and Reproductive Medicine, Austin, Texas.
Abstract

PURPOSE:

We evaluated the relative prevalence of secondary polycythemia in hypogonadal men treated with clomiphene citrate or testosterone replacement therapy.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:

In this retrospective, multi-institutional study, we included 188 men who received clomiphene citrate and 175 who received testosterone replacement therapy with symptomatic hypogonadism. The overall prevalence and ORs of secondary polycythemia for clomiphene citrate treatment vs testosterone replacement were primarily measured, as were baseline characteristics. Subset analysis included polycythemia rates for different types of testosterone replacement therapy.

RESULTS:

Overall, men on testosterone replacement therapy were older than clomiphene citrate treated men (age 51.5 vs 38 years). Men on testosterone replacement had longer treatment duration than clomiphene citrate treated men (19.6 vs 9.2 months). For testosterone replacement therapy and clomiphene citrate the mean change in hematocrit was 3.0% and 0.6%, and the mean change in serum testosterone was 333.1 and 367.6 ng/dl, respectively. The prevalence of polycythemia in men on testosterone replacement was 11.2% vs 1.7% in men on clomiphene citrate (p = 0.0003). This significance remained on logistic regression after correcting for age, site, smoking history and pretreatment hematocrit.

CONCLUSIONS:

The prevalence of polycythemia in men treated with clomiphene citrate was markedly lower than that in men on testosterone replacement therapy. The improvement in absolute serum testosterone levels was similar to that in men on testosterone replacement. There is no significant risk of polycythemia in men treated with clomiphene citrate for hypogonadism.

Copyright © 2017 American Urological Association Education and Research, Inc. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


KEYWORDS:

clomiphene; hypogonadism; polycythemia; testis; testosterone


PMID: 27984109 DOI: 10.1016/j.juro.2016.10.068

 

[warlock]

I know your searching for this ultimate answer to all this.....and I agree vitamin C/etc and watching your heme iron intake etc can help in this matter.....but your searching for everything under the sun and the truth of the matter is this: Do you know whats raising your hematocrit? Juice/Testosterone
Thats what is raising your hematocrit.
Dump that and im willing to bet anything that your hematocrit goes back down in range.
So you need to decide what is of extreme importance to you here. If you feel your life is in danger yet you continue to do the very thing that is putting it in danger (Juice/Testosterone).....you are putting vanity over reasoning.

Do i think if you were natural and taking beet juice you would have 60 hematocrit. No, no you wouldnt.

Your AAS/Test intake is doing this.

If you feel your life is in danger, why are you continuing to juice and looking for everything else that isnt the culprit?

This is what i think....I dont think the MT2 helped one bit in this problem....if this was me and i was that worried about it.....I would use GH only for awhile.......and absolutely no juice/AAS at all and i would retest in 3-4 months....and see where the hematocrit is....its most likely going to be back down in range....and at that point I would micro and i mean micro dose testosterone to find your sweet spot of where you need to be to keep it at 55 or below.

If thats not an option then maybe i would do a lil nolv (or if you can mentally deal with it..clomid) during this 3-4 month clear out period with gh and at that time 3-4 months again try to find the sweet spot with low dose test you need to be at

If thats not an option then i would find a very progressive minded doctor no matter what i had to do and tell him straight on out "I am freaking worried about my hematocrit...I want to use testosterone....do i need to regularly phlebotomize in your opinion? Lets fix this problem".....your working so hard to figure out if beet juice is raising your hematocrit when you and everyone else in here knows its your testosterone/AAS usage that is doing it. Take that hard work in looking into beet juice and find a doc that is up on the latest studies and progression of TRT and study his ethos as it regards hematocrit. It looks like you are willing to risk your own intuition of potential death and continue doing AAS/Testosterone....contact Neal Rouzier or one of his associates and tell them you would like to be under their guidance.....thats what I would do instead of driving yourself nuts with this stuff.

Dante,

I'm wondering..how much GH would you personally use in this situation if you were to drop the TRT?

 

[nothuman]

I see your logic but at the same time do agree with Dante. You are taking something (testosterone) all year that is known to increase HCT even at TRT doses. It's shown in pretty much every clinical study on the subject. It's like someone with liver issues taking out various hormones and supps but staying on adrol hoping their liver values improve. I think it's worth trying though and again 100% see the logic. If someone was taking x amount of supps that may have an effect on HCT obviously taking them away will definitely help. Even if it's just a few % it would help. But the fact remains the testesterone will likely always be giving you issues so it will be an uphill battle regardless what else you take out.

So you are researching everything that you take and connections to HCT and if there is some evidence you remove them. I just think this comes back to something I have messaged to you in the past and that's the sheer amounts of supps you take all year. I know most of them are beneficial in many ways but everytime you will have an issue in the future (which only get more common as we get older) you have a massive list of possibilities. I know your health is important and why you stress about these things so much and this is the only reason I bring this up again. I don't mean to piss you off but I would go back to the basics if I were you.

Although as posted it's likely the testosterone so even on no supps you could have the same HCT issues. Do you think you could regain your test if you came off? I doubt you could do that (I couldn't). Clomid could be an option if you handle it well. I have read plenty of studies showing clomid to have similar effects to testosterone on serum test levels without the associated risks of polycythemia. Even if just for 3-4 months it would be worth trying just to see what drop you notice in HCT.

I will never come off testosterone. Not even going to entertain that. I’m fine with a hematocrit of 55. The problem is even if I double my trt dose, it’ll go way up. I want to figure out if taking several supps in combination is enough that it’s bumping my hematocrit up by 3% or something. I don’t think it’s crazy of me to investigate that possibility. It would be nice to have the freedom of doing a super low dose combo of test and trest (100/100) and I’m not even sure I can do that. I want to be able to do SOMETHING anabolic. That’s the frustration of it all.

 

[Elvia1023]

I will never come off testosterone. Not even going to entertain that. I’m fine with a hematocrit of 55. The problem is even if I double my trt dose, it’ll go way up. I want to figure out if taking several supps in combination is enough that it’s bumping my hematocrit up by 3% or something. I don’t think it’s crazy of me to investigate that possibility. It would be nice to have the freedom of doing a super low dose combo of test and trest (100/100) and I’m not even sure I can do that. I want to be able to do SOMETHING anabolic. That’s the frustration of it all.

I don't blame you. I would be exactly the same. It still should make a difference if you get rid of the right things. In many studies the increase from testosterone isn't huge either. Although you obviously have an issue with that one side effect. How often do you give blood now? As you know the body regulates itself and it often seems to me the more someone gives blood the faster levels come back. My levels have always gone down naturally. I am not stating don't give blood but just something to ponder. Do you think your levels would continue to rise through time and stay very high if you stayed on TRT (taking away the supps you listed) but waited approx 6+ months instead of the standard 3 months (or however long you wait between donations now) many take before giving blood again?

 

[Bobik]

A little off topic, but...
I have the same problem with HTC. I was 8 weeks on the 400mg test and 240mg deca. My HTC went up from 53 to 60. I stopped and now I'm doing a 20mg test per day. Now after six weeks, after this low dose test, my HTC is 54. I only added Salbutamol and GH 2iu to my TRT. I feel great and wait to see if HTC goes down .....
No blood donation. Previously, my HTC has always been a maximum of 53 per cycle. Now I have problems because I donated blood. It was a mistake. I will never donate blood again and just wait to see if HTC drops down....

 

[Anabolic_Beast]

For those of you with high crit and high hemoglobin..how is your cardio routine looking? A reverse perspective coming from me; As an avid runner and one who takes regular blood work including full blood panel...My crit never goes above 48 and hemoglobin never above 17. I am also an avid runner and run one and a half hours every other day and the other days I do intense cycling work with high gear for 20-25 mins a session. I find, according to my blood work behavior and my low dose TRT (225-250mg test a week and thats it) that 5+ miles running EOD and cycling burns your crit count down and eats away at RBC fast if you do it very intensely and nearly every day. I was actually shocked to see my last blood work where my crit was down to 44 and this was all because I dedicated high intense cardio work.
I hope that my post can help others on here who are frustrated at their high grit and worried if their blood is getting too thick...that just being on TRT-cruise dose of test only and jacking up the cardio is probably your ultimate solution without having to adhere to donating blood and doing all of the other stuff...

 

[nothuman]

I don't blame you. I would be exactly the same. It still should make a difference if you get rid of the right things. In many studies the increase from testosterone isn't huge either. Although you obviously have an issue with that one side effect. How often do you give blood now? As you know the body regulates itself and it often seems to me the more someone gives blood the faster levels come back. My levels have always gone down naturally. I am not stating don't give blood but just something to ponder. Do you think your levels would continue to rise through time and stay very high if you stayed on TRT (taking away the supps you listed) but waited approx 6+ months instead of the standard 3 months (or however long you wait between donations now) many take before giving blood again?

I try not to give blood unless it gets crazy because I hate depleting my ferritin. It’s a never ending cycle of trying to balance H/H with ferritin and it’s hard to nail it. On 20mg daily trt, it chills around 55. Fine but it gives me very little room for error if I want a small anabolic boost on top of TRT. Hgh makes me look a little better while taking it but it doesn’t really build muscle on TRT. It also jacks up heart rate by a substantial amount which I don’t like.

 

[Elvia1023]

I try not to give blood unless it gets crazy because I hate depleting my ferritin. It’s a never ending cycle of trying to balance H/H with ferritin and it’s hard to nail it. On 20mg daily trt, it chills around 55. Fine but it gives me very little room for error if I want a small anabolic boost on top of TRT. Hgh makes me look a little better while taking it but it doesn’t really build muscle on TRT. It also jacks up heart rate by a substantial amount which I don’t like.

I read your threads so knew that I just can't remember how often you give blood now. What's the longest you have waited to give blood over the last year or 2? Are you still using melanotan 2? I know you stopped but did you stay off it?

 

[nothuman]

I read your threads so knew that I just can't remember how often you give blood now. What's the longest you have waited to give blood over the last year or 2? Are you still using melanotan 2? I know you stopped but did you stay off it?

At one point before the Dr. Rouzier stuff came around, I was donating a lot. I also didn’t know much about ferritin at the time either.

I’ve done it like 3 times this calendar year I believe. If ferritin gets lower, I take ferrous sulfate for a little and it goes back up (but might push H/H up slightly in the process).

I haven’t taken MT2 in almost 3 years, but I was using a really low dose and don’t think it increased it.

 

[Elvia1023]

At one point before the Dr. Rouzier stuff came around, I was donating a lot. I also didn’t know much about ferritin at the time either.

I’ve done it like 3 times this calendar year I believe. If ferritin gets lower, I take ferrous sulfate for a little and it goes back up (but might push H/H up slightly in the process).

I haven’t taken MT2 in almost 3 years, but I was using a really low dose and don’t think it increased it.

Would you consider not giving blood for over 6 months and seeing what happens with your H/H? I know you have just given blood very recently so numbers will go back up that is a given. However, I wonder what it will do later on without intervention. Obviously I am not a doctor but I think it would be worth finding out. In that time just use low doses (which you do anyway) so it's not like you are putting yourself in major danger. Just a suggestion but obviously run everything through your doctor. I don't think he/she will be against the idea and it may result in you not needing to give blood 4 times per year. Although I suppose the maximum hematocrit you prefer to have is a massive factor in all of this. What is your typical platelet count (in range)?

 

[maldorf]

For those of you with high crit and high hemoglobin..how is your cardio routine looking? A reverse perspective coming from me; As an avid runner and one who takes regular blood work including full blood panel...My crit never goes above 48 and hemoglobin never above 17. I am also an avid runner and run one and a half hours every other day and the other days I do intense cycling work with high gear for 20-25 mins a session. I find, according to my blood work behavior and my low dose TRT (225-250mg test a week and thats it) that 5+ miles running EOD and cycling burns your crit count down and eats away at RBC fast if you do it very intensely and nearly every day. I was actually shocked to see my last blood work where my crit was down to 44 and this was all because I dedicated high intense cardio work.
I hope that my post can help others on here who are frustrated at their high grit and worried if their blood is getting too thick...that just being on TRT-cruise dose of test only and jacking up the cardio is probably your ultimate solution without having to adhere to donating blood and doing all of the other stuff...

Ive heard others on here confirm the same as you. I too see that when I do more cardio that my hemoglobin doesn't climb as high. Soimetimes I will now go in for my quarterly phlebotomy and not even need it. I think it has helped me. I am now in the process of trying to push my cardio higher.

 

[nothuman]

Would you consider not giving blood for over 6 months and seeing what happens with your H/H? I know you have just given blood very recently so numbers will go back up that is a given. However, I wonder what it will do later on without intervention. Obviously I am not a doctor but I think it would be worth finding out. In that time just use low doses (which you do anyway) so it's not like you are putting yourself in major danger. Just a suggestion but obviously run everything through your doctor. I don't think he/she will be against the idea and it may result in you not needing to give blood 4 times per year. Although I suppose the maximum hematocrit you prefer to have is a massive factor in all of this. What is your typical platelet count (in range)?

I actually did do that (not give blood for 6 months) and it leveled at 55. Then the moment I added ANYTHING on top of that, no matter how small, it shoots up. Suchhhh a pain in the ass. I’ve been on only TRT for basically all of the last few years minus a few weeks of me attempting to either take 300mg test or add 70-100mg trest