Severe AC joint arthritis..suggestions?

[ThatSickRip]

Specialist diagnosed me with severe AC joint arthritis in my right shoulder. For that last 6 weeks Ive been using BPC157 & TB500, and havent really had any progress (from what Ive read, its not really used for arthritis, but figured it couldnt hurt). I did a search, and I found NY Muscles protocol for artritis (curcumin and astaxanthin) which Ive already ordered and am going to start taking. I also use Cissus, glucoasmine, as well as fish/flax oil.

Chiropractor found 2 knots, 1 on the back of my shoulder and 1 in my trap, that Im going to see a massage therapist about. Hopefully it will help release any tension or pulling/alignment issues in that area as well. Ive also read about Infraspinatus trigger points, which I will have the massage therapist look into as well.

Does anyone else have experience with this kind of arthritis, and if so, what type of protocol do you use to help combat it?

 

[ThatSickRip]

Nobody?

 

[gotgame]

Dude no "protocol" is going to help it. But first how do you know know its AC joint arthritis? X ray? What grade did they give it and did they describe any of the osteophytes? Any signs of a high riding humerus on the x ray to suggest supra injury?


If it really is AC joint degen change you can have it opened up via a decompression. Takes like 2 min in the OR.


And let me state again. If it really is arthritis and it really is severe no herb or whatever is going to change that so there is no protocol.

Now if its only AC joint inflammation that is a different story.

 

[ThatSickRip]

I had an xray at my primary care, then went on to a specialist. The xray showed decreased joint space, and after a physical evaluation, the specialist said it was severe arthritis on the AC joint (36, weight training 20 years with some time off here and there). He recommended 3 options:
1. "Live with it"
2. cortisone shots
3. resection arthroplasty.

For now, I am going with option 1, as its not debilitating, more of just a nuisance and aggravating. I was wanting to supplement what I could to help with it, though I know it wont "go away". If it ever gets to where I cant do daily functions because of it, Id go with option 3, but Im not a fan of being cut open if I dont have to be.

 

[mkchll]

Have you looked into injectable Curcumin? It did wonders for my shoulder inflammation in only 2 weeks and is something I would never go without now. I saw no noticeable improvement taking it orally for a few months.

 

[Deleted member 121863]

adequan or ichon is the same thing, both vet meds. Both help to increase synovial fluid, repaid damaged cartilage, zero sides. I have used both and helped my shoulder aches/pains/strains, but I also don`t have arthritis.

 

[Floxedone]

Been over this alot on this forum, you need to look at


LED/laser light therapy.

MMP (destructive enzymes in the body)INHIBITORS

and maybe also some natural/prescription TNF ALpha modulators.

Info on MMPs

Tumor Found on Liver - Page 5 - Professional Muscle (Slovenian)

 

[ThatSickRip]

Thanks for the info guys. Ill start taking a look at what you all posted

 

[Floxedone]

As long as there is are stillc cells and ECM, Extra cellular matrix, then taking the mmp inhibitors and cartilage builders should help restore function and balance.

I believe anything to lower inflammation (accept NSAIDs, they MAY make degeneration worse through MMP increase) and increase cell proliferation/ ECM deposition will help you get back a functioning joint.

Light therapy, at the right dose around what they call "joules", of around 5 joules cm2 has been shown to cause cell proliferation and ECM deposition. so has microcurrrent therapy, I believe LED light is safer as someone who has done both for years.

Many people take curcumin and glocosamine, etc and say "it didn't work" but the fact is they may have.

1. Been too hard on the joints, destroying more ECM and cells then building

2. Not taken enough NATURAL anti-inflammatories, causing inflammation, causing increase in MMP and destroying what few cells and ECM they were building.

3. They may have some issue like auto-immune that destroy more than can be built.

Taking the best forms of MANY of the right supplements will

1. Kill of the bad/chronic inflamation while still allowing healing.

2. Balance the action of MMP which should stop degradation and help HEALTHY tissue remodeling.

3. Increase cell proliferation and ECM deposition by 1-4 times a normal level.

This means that WITHOUT doing more damage it could take weeks to months to restore balance and function!

If GH, bpc 157, etc are added into the mix then healing MIGHT be quicker, but I would try everything before BPC 157. My approach is to try the natural before the synthetic, try the safest before the less safe (ya'll can argue safety...)


Moral of the story is that if you want to save the joint you will NEED to take it EASY until it's healed. If this means yoga, stretching and light isometric loading then so be it.

This mean modifying exercises. No more "full range" heavy/medium load bearing movements.

I have had GOOD success with LED light therapy on ligaments, even to the point that I can NOTICE the increased thickness and strength.


One of the issues is that connective tissue is mechano-sensitive, meaning mechanical loading creates the signals to heal, remodel and get stronger. but during injury too much loading can degrade tissue such as joints, cartilage, ligaments too much. SO you are stuck in a catch 22, you need to move to heal, but it might hurt so taking supplements to increase mechano-sensitive response along with things to stimulate that response light microcurrent, LED light therapy, GH/peptides is what is needed to push growth and heal.


Good luck.

 

[NY Muscle]

And let me state again. If it really is arthritis and it really is severe no herb or whatever is going to change that so there is no protocol.

You may want to tell that to the Rheumatoid Arthritis I wiped out. ..

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[gotgame]

You may want to tell that to the Rheumatoid Arthritis I wiped out. ..

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

Yes one is an inflammatory arthritis and one is a degenerative arthritis process. Thats sort of liking lumping " infection" together to include both bacteria and viruses and then someone saying they treated pneumonia effectively so why cant u cure HIV. And if you had RA you didnt wipe it out you simply decreased your bodies response to itself for the time being to a subclinical level however the process will progress although at a slower rate as thats the purposes of nearly all RA meds.


To the OP. If you are having impingement symptoms I would probably opt to have it decompressed as you are eventually going to mess up your supra. If your not ready to have that done then I would personally go with aleve about 800mg twice a day for two weeks along with icing and laying off of it. If that doesnt help and you are still trying to be conservative then yes a corticosteroid shot will help for a bit but again if you have spurring you are gonna be tearing up your supra eventually and then your looking to be out for some time.


I also have AC degen but not severe like yours. In fact many of us do from years of heavy benching. It sucks and I hope yours feels better.

 

[ThatSickRip]

Yes one is an inflammatory arthritis and one is a degenerative arthritis process. Thats sort of liking lumping " infection" together to include both bacteria and viruses and then someone saying they treated pneumonia effectively so why cant u cure HIV. And if you had RA you didnt wipe it out you simply decreased your bodies response to itself for the time being to a subclinical level however the process will progress although at a slower rate as thats the purposes of nearly all RA meds.


To the OP. If you are having impingement symptoms I would probably opt to have it decompressed as you are eventually going to mess up your supra. If your not ready to have that done then I would personally go with aleve about 800mg twice a day for two weeks along with icing and laying off of it. If that doesnt help and you are still trying to be conservative then yes a corticosteroid shot will help for a bit but again if you have spurring you are gonna be tearing up your supra eventually and then your looking to be out for some time.


I also have AC degen but not severe like yours. In fact many of us do from years of heavy benching. It sucks and I hope yours feels better.

Thanks for the info. Whats all is involved with decompression vs resection arthroplasty?

And my doc never even mentioned spurring or anything to the like (not saying that I dont have it, saying that he never even brought the topic up with the diagnosis and that its a possibility). I may look into getting a second opinion, even if only for peace of mind.

 

[Floxedone]

Thanks for the info. Whats all is involved with decompression vs resection arthroplasty?

And my doc never even mentioned spurring or anything to the like (not saying that I dont have it, saying that he never even brought the topic up with the diagnosis and that its a possibility). I may look into getting a second opinion, even if only for peace of mind.

PLEASE don't listen to gotgame. There is good evidence that NSAIDs actually do harm by rising MMP production and other horrible things (it would be a LONG post).

6 weeks isn't much time AT ALL, especially if you aren't resting it enough.
You need the nutrients and Also THE STIMULATION.

Mechanical loading is one way to start cellular reaction in favor of healing, remodeling, and strengthening, but Photons(biophotomodulation) and electrons (Microcurent) can also "trick" the body into thinking mechanical load has taken place.

Surgery should be a last option, IMHO.

Why ANYONE would recommend and NSAID while there is curcumin, tumeric, grape seed extract, etc is beyond me. Also LLLT PROVEN to block tnf-Alpha at the right dose.

Both Photon and electron therapy works, partly by increasing ATP production, cell proliferation, stem cell recruitment, MMP creation/then beneficial remodeling, pain signal reduction, inflammation reduction,and oxidative stress balancing.

Just type in "athlete, NSAID, mmp, connective tissue" and you'll find a HOST of info about how they are bad for healing.

 

[gotgame]

PLEASE don't listen to gotgame. There is good evidence that NSAIDs actually do harm by rising MMP production and other horrible things (it would be a LONG post).

6 weeks isn't much time AT ALL, especially if you aren't resting it enough.
You need the nutrients and Also THE STIMULATION.

Mechanical loading is one way to start cellular reaction in favor of healing, remodeling, and strengthening, but Photons(biophotomodulation) and electrons (Microcurent) can also "trick" the body into thinking mechanical load has taken place.

Surgery should be a last option, IMHO.

Why ANYONE would recommend and NSAID while there is curcumin, tumeric, grape seed extract, etc is beyond me. Also LLLT PROVEN to block tnf-Alpha at the right dose.

Both Photon and electron therapy works, partly by increasing ATP production, cell proliferation, stem cell recruitment, MMP creation/then beneficial remodeling, pain signal reduction, inflammation reduction,and oxidative stress balancing.

Just type in "athlete, NSAID, mmp, connective tissue" and you'll find a HOST of info about how they are bad for healing.

haha yea.. i must just be googling stuff. lol Why would I recommend a proven antiinflam for what may be degen with local inflammation. Instead i should recommend photons and alternatives and try to work on cell proliferation to an area where you cant repair to parts of it being avascular to being with. So...not really sure how curcumin can get there lol

What you are referring to is nsaids mmp and bones and tissues normal response to injury. This is degen arthritis and not normal response. It is true that I would not use nsaids if this wasnt arthritis or at least I would consider it only if wouldnt impair healing. In this situation healing isnt an option.

Oh and one more thing and you might find this part funny.... im quite sure the paper ( or maybe your papers paper) is quoting my own work from 2005 looking at vioxx and bone healing where I looked at all the local inflam factors. lol. But yea....dont listen to me lol Its not like i do this for a living lol.

Flexedone, how many patients rotator cuffs have you scoped and saw the damage that was done by having impingement on it for years? No amount of curcumin or photon therapy would help that yet you recommend it over actual removal of the osteophytes which will cause that and prevent long term morbidity.

I do believe your intentions are good but for OA in THIS location that is not the appropriate recommendation. In the knee your advice wouldnt cause long term issues though.

 

[bxbomber]

I had an xray at my primary care, then went on to a specialist. The xray showed decreased joint space, and after a physical evaluation, the specialist said it was severe arthritis on the AC joint (36, weight training 20 years with some time off here and there). He recommended 3 options:
1. "Live with it"
2. cortisone shots
3. resection arthroplasty.

For now, I am going with option 1, as its not debilitating, more of just a nuisance and aggravating. I was wanting to supplement what I could to help with it, though I know it wont "go away". If it ever gets to where I cant do daily functions because of it, Id go with option 3, but Im not a fan of being cut open if I dont have to be.

Hey brother I was in a very similar situation a few years ago with my shoulder. I had ac joint arthritis and bone spurs on my rotator cuff, and my clavicle had to be shaved down a lil bit because of the rubbing on the rotator cuff causing inflammation.
First I tried to deal with it and I did for a while.
Next started the cortisone shots. The first one lasted for 6 months and the pain returned went with another shot and that one only lasted about 3 to 4 months. Third shot lasted less that 45 days. At this point the doc informed me i was better off with surgery because I was too young to keep getting g the cortisone. While the cortisone releases the pain and makes it easier to deal with, the constant cortisone shots will actually cause more damage than help in the long run.
I opted for surgery and honestly the best choice I made. Now I am over 2.5 years from surgery and that shoulder is stronger than ever and all is back to normal. So from my experiences u can save yourself alot of headaches and just get the procedure done as that was what worked best for me. I know our situations are a little different.
-bx

 

[LK3]

Yes one is an inflammatory arthritis and one is a degenerative arthritis process. Thats sort of liking lumping " infection" together to include both bacteria and viruses and then someone saying they treated pneumonia effectively so why cant u cure HIV. And if you had RA you didnt wipe it out you simply decreased your bodies response to itself for the time being to a subclinical level however the process will progress although at a slower rate as thats the purposes of nearly all RA meds.


To the OP. If you are having impingement symptoms I would probably opt to have it decompressed as you are eventually going to mess up your supra. If your not ready to have that done then I would personally go with aleve about 800mg twice a day for two weeks along with icing and laying off of it. If that doesnt help and you are still trying to be conservative then yes a corticosteroid shot will help for a bit but again if you have spurring you are gonna be tearing up your supra eventually and then your looking to be out for some time.


I also have AC degen but not severe like yours. In fact many of us do from years of heavy benching. It sucks and I hope yours feels better.

ihave psoriatic arthritis which would be cronic, degenerative and associated with auto immune disorder. I fix it and then some with essentially natural things...

I have seen the same results in others, in fact better then drug response, for people with real issues too like living on morphine with shitty prognosis, people have been able to go back to normal life following protocols that I and others have perfected.

aleve... you cant be serious! lol
I take no NSAID ever that are not natural, nothing, the herbs that don't work fix it all... though they are not exactly herbs at this level... lol

back to book learning and modern medicine for you!

we are at a higher level!

:headbang:

 

[gotgame]

ihave psoriatic arthritis which would be cronic, degenerative and associated with auto immune disorder. I fix it and then some with essentially natural things...

I have seen the same results in others, in fact better then drug response, for people with real issues too like living on morphine with shitty prognosis, people have been able to go back to normal life following protocols that I and others have perfected.

aleve... you cant be serious! lol
I take no NSAID ever that are not natural, nothing, the herbs that don't work fix it all... though they are not exactly herbs at this level... lol

back to book learning and modern medicine for you!

we are at a higher level!

:headbang:

hahaha yea... screw evidence based medicine let's all go back to the better time before all of that lmao.


I'll let u guys have fun with your googling and alternatives. Some stuff is serious and other stuff isnt. AC joint osteophytes is not serious business. If this was the liver cancer thread I'd keep posting because that's imoortant.

At the end of the day when people have serious issues they seek real medical advice and treatments.

Lk, if I recall correctly from previous threads u have had decent well thoughtout responses based on science but I'm surprised at this one. you really should read some of my other posts if u don't think I'm qualified in this area. Not sure what u do when ur not on here but musculoskeletal fracture healing and soft tissue repair is what I did for years and now i do somethinge a little different but along the same lines.

I posted on this thread to be helpful but instead people are all up in arms about photons, curcumin, and avoids nsaids even in the short term to prevent the local inflammation response before he gets persistent hyper. I understand people on here want to think they are experts because they read some articles or sI'm one improved by doing something once or twice but that was the problem with "medicine" for centuries.

I'm not saying these dont have merit however the way for everyone to learn is by posting up the legit known information about what you are recommwnding and yet at the same time know the condition you are treating. Id encourage that type of discussion but some of the recent comments show a true lack of understanding of degenerative arthritis. I'll let the experts get back to it lol

 

[LK3]

hahaha yea... screw evidence based medicine let's all go back to the better time before all of that lmao.


I'll let u guys have fun with your googling and alternatives. Some stuff is serious and other stuff isnt. AC joint osteophytes is not serious business. If this was the liver cancer thread I'd keep posting because that's imoortant.

At the end of the day when people have serious issues they seek real medical advice and treatments.

Lk, if I recall correctly from previous threads u have had decent well thoughtout responses based on science but I'm surprised at this one. you really should read some of my other posts if u don't think I'm qualified in this area. Not sure what u do when ur not on here but musculoskeletal fracture healing and soft tissue repair is what I did for years and now i do somethinge a little different but along the same lines.

I posted on this thread to be helpful but instead people are all up in arms about photons, curcumin, and avoids nsaids even in the short term to prevent the local inflammation response before he gets persistent hyper. I understand people on here want to think they are experts because they read some articles or sI'm one improved by doing something once or twice but that was the problem with "medicine" for centuries.

I'm not saying these dont have merit however the way for everyone to learn is by posting up the legit known information about what you are recommwnding and yet at the same time know the condition you are treating. Id encourage that type of discussion but some of the recent comments show a true lack of understanding of degenerative arthritis. I'll let the experts get back to it lol

I avoided this thread due to the painful repetition of my posts, I saw your post and could not help but have some fun with it... I guess ill have to come back when I have time for more serious response but...

what would you like me to provide?
links to double blind studies funded by someone?

guess what... they don't exist!

I and a group of similar people have been working with these compounds for YEARS for ourselves, not for profit not to impress people and not to make a living, we did it tested it and refined it for our uses.

these are not applicable in any real way in modern medicine as they involve lots of unpleasant injections, to even consider this one has to have real muscle mass and a high tolerance for pain.

if one is motivated enough one can find out some interesting things.

you deal with weak people that are incapable of thinking or doing on there own, modern medicine fosters this ignorance and weakness.

google searches.... come on.... find one post where I write anything in proper English let alone medical jargon that would be copied and pasted.

I have been on this for 10+ years of obsession and real world practice, not with old or broken people but with real world maniacs, and I get real world results.

I have gotten people that doctors would have on opiate meds doing lifted walking back in the gym, training and living a HIGH quality of life without drugs! doing things that make them more healthy!


modern medicine uses plenty of drugs and treatments but more often then not they have shitty unwanted side effects, I just use what I know to come up with combinations that yield desirable side effects. like curcumin for example, how much is theoretically possible with this?

that is where my research goes, theory. I do things in theory, as I have no proof, proof will be years behind what I do. what I do have at this point is a fair amount of people getting remarkable results, doing things that are not possible by normal methods...

im not going back to a time of gathering herbs outside, I take the best of modern technology and combine it with the latest in research and theory.

I don't know how you are going to do something new using what has been done before.

 

[Floxedone]

DOn't deed the troll!

THere are MANY studies that have ALREADY been posted. THis is a place for open and adult discussion, not petty bait posts.


Many people have got great results with natural compounds, peptides, light, microcurrent, and it is FACT and science based, all of it.

On the other hand I KNOW MANY people who take script NSAIDs and continue to have hip replacements, disc fusions, pain, etc.

If you believe in evolution then it should NOT be a surprise to you that photonic energy, laser, LED, hologen, SUNLIGHT has MANY beneficial effects.

If we all spent our time listing EVERY STUDY multiple times for each doubter or troll we would have no time to live.

 

[gotgame]

DOn't deed the troll!

THere are MANY studies that have ALREADY been posted. THis is a place for open and adult discussion, not petty bait posts.


Many people have got great results with natural compounds, peptides, light, microcurrent, and it is FACT and science based, all of it.

On the other hand I KNOW MANY people who take script NSAIDs and continue to have hip replacements, disc fusions, pain, etc.

If you believe in evolution then it should NOT be a surprise to you that photonic energy, laser, LED, hologen, SUNLIGHT has MANY beneficial effects.

If we all spent our time listing EVERY STUDY multiple times for each doubter or troll we would have no time to live.

LMAO. There is no where to even begin. No reason to waste my time on this thread as I dont have the time to be giving a seminar on basic pathophysiology because when I do that I normally get paid.

I really had no intentions on replying to this thread again but the responses are laughable. Im thankful the OP doesnt have a serious medical issue.

Let me be clear. Some treatments do have merit IMO. Ive mentioned curcumin a few times and do be completely honest I do feel that it may have a role in certain conditions. However what im seeing here is people not even understanding something as basic as osteoarthritis and then just making huge leaps and thinking that something they read for another condition also applies to that.

People will believe what they want to believe for a variety of reasons. More often then not people have opinions when they are so grossly underinformed or have such limited knowledge in an area that the lack of a basic understanding prevents a real conversation. That does not apply to everyone. If someone understands all the aspects of what they are talking about and they come to a different conclusion then that is what i want! That is how progress is made! If you happen to know a lot about i dunno lets say curcumin... and lets say you know nearly all there is to know about asthma ( something nice and basic). And you tell me that you feel that curcumin can help asthma because of x, y and z and it makes logical sense despite there not being a ton of research to support that direct effect then great!! Its a well thought out logical conclusion that may or may not be valid but is a good starting point for research ( LK it seems like that is what you try to do). But to start saying things which clearly show a complete lack of understanding of the underlying condition just is a waste of everyones time.

I have noticed that a lot on PM and other forums. People make huge leaps with assumptions because they are underinformed. I do my best to help out on the forums when it comes to medical issues as not many people can really ask their physician things completely confidential and get an unbiased opinion. If you are going to make comments please take the time to think them through and that is not directed at any one person but its tiring to type out responses like this as I do have real work to do