Dat's super simplified GH secretagogue thread

gyno · Jul 3, 2009

Hey dat, my question is this...What caused you to start a short answer thread?

Also, if you notice, in the beginning the answers were 5 lines or less...now they are slowly getting longer and longer.

whiteknucks · Jul 3, 2009

dat, when are you going to start getting books published?

hubby · Jul 3, 2009

Great thread Dat!!!A question in general for a general injury,how long would the healing properties or recovery from injury properties start to take effect?Many thanks!

DatBtrue · Jul 3, 2009

VallhallaOrBust; said:
+1

Assuming that it is the same saturation dose for all 3 GHRP could you also please suggest a strategy for avoiding desensitazation? Would Hexarelin 5 days a week and GHRP-2 two days a week likely suffice if dosing every 3 hours?

Saturation dose basically means that at any given point in time that dose saturates most of the receptors. Now if you have a compound that has a life long enough any extra dosage will bind to a receptor when one becomes available (for whatever reason... an up conversion of receptors, etc.)

So 100mcg or 1mcg/kg gas been found to be the saturation dose for all of those peptides ...meaning that 100mcg will occupy the receptors.

But that doesn't mean higher dosages will have no more effect. For example the first 100mcg will be 100% effective, the next 100mcg might only be 50% effective, the next 100mcg might be 30% effective and for some peptides a final 100mcg will be 20% effective.

What is clear is that the beyond 400mcg no amount will be effective.

For instance Stenlabs has weak peptides. I have some old GHRP-6 that I am trying to use up. It still has some activity so I dose it at 600mcg because it is weak it has the effect of probably 200mcg.

Now for the hell of it I used an entire vial 5mgs before bed the other night and it did not feel any different then 600mcgs.

All of this pertains to hormones occupying receptors. It says nothing about what they will do while they are occupying the receptor.

A saturation does of GHRP-6 will cause less GH to be released then GHRP-2 which causes less GH to be released then Hexarelin.

So it you wanted them all to behave equally 100mcg of GHRP-6 would equal maybe 75-80mcgs of GHRP-2 and 50mcg of Hexarelin.

So dosing Hexarelin at 50mcg all the time would avoid desensitization. Now I also like the strategy of fully dosing Hexarelin but switching it out every two weeks with GHRP-2 or GHRP-6. That will probably avoid desensitization.

VallhallaOrBust; said:
Is it ideal to dose CJC-1295 every 3 hours /w the GHRP or is there a better strategy?

Yes. There is synergy between using of peptide from the GHRH category and one peptide from the GHRP category.

By synergy I mean 3 + 5 = 14 (not 8)

The sum is greater then the parts.

DatBtrue · Jul 3, 2009

Thewhite9t said:
Dat,

Which peptide is a good platue buster? Could a GHRH and GHRP do this or should I be looking more along the lines of MGF/IGF?

There's contradictory evidence everywhere.

*This is for research purposes only*

As a general rule GH is not anabolic w/o insulin (exogenous or high physiological). Insulin is not anabolic without circulating amino acids. Not all amino acids are taken up into the muscular intracellular pools w/o blood flow. Many components of anabolism are very much benefited by testosterone.

Testosterone by itself and GH by itself and both together will increase MGF in muscle cells PWO. Youth + workout = increased MGF in muscle cells. Old age + workout does not = MGF in muscle cells.

IGF-1 LR3 or exogenous IGF-1 will completely inhibit GH & testosterone's effect of increasing MGF.

The expression (meaning the creation & use) of IGF & MGF in a muscle cell is more important then liver made circulating IGF-1. The muscle makes & uses its own and can use but doesn't wait for IGF-1 to come floating by.

IGF-1 differentiates cells while MGF & Fibroblast Growth Factor 2 proliferate them. You want to proflierate, proliferate, proliferate, proliferate, ...differentiate.

You do not want to cut off proliferating too soon. IGF-1 has been shown to cut of Fibroblast Growth factor 2's proliferating action. IGF-1 does so by saying "enough making undefined cells, I'm going to turn them into muscle cells". It is assumed IGF-1 will do the same thing to MGF.

So post workout, naturally MGF expression in muscle increases. You want to allow its proliferating actions to last a while. That means immediately post workout is not a time to administer IGF-1 LR3 because it likely will cut off MGF's proliferating action.

There is contradictory evidence everywhere because people like to inject "hope" instead of thinking about what they want to accomplish, what each compound will do in vivo, and how they will make it part of an overall protocol.

Some of that starts with your decisions on what compounds you are willing to use.

GH or GH releasing peptides or nothing injectable and instead things like L-Dopa & arginine, Huperzine A OR maximizing (don't do things to interfere w/) the PWO GH rise...

Insulin or naturally increasing it w/ a glucose load or adding leucine w/ glucose for insulin synergy...

Amino acids... protein meal before workout or aminos before & during workout.

How are you going to maximize blood flow in your routine? Are you going to work chest & then legs in the same day and fail to keep blood flow/pump in the same general area... a flush set...

Energy recovery! Protein synthesis is limited by ATP. It takes several ATP molecules to create a bond between two amino acids in the human body. Synthesizing protein is energy intensive. The body will not synthesize protein or maximize it until it has energy stores available.

Plateau buster... the body only wants to grow so much at any one time. Diet for a while... get bodyfat down to the level of a competitor 4 weeks out from a show... hold it for a short while and then start an anabolic protocol which involves many factor not the least of which is food.

Make sure PWO protein has at least 3 grams of leucine in it. Mix protein sources even in the same meal. It is unscientific but there anecdotally seems to be something to food variety in keeping the body growing.

Estrogen conversion is higher when you have higher body fat...
...get a better hormonal balance and get better nutrient partitioning...

These are types of things that you can consider...

DatBtrue · Jul 3, 2009

Dr.S said:
Dat--if somone is using a GHRP and/or GHRH around 9-10pm at night, and also using IGF to heal injuries-- would administering the IGF around 7am with first meal be much more effective/advantageous than 5-6pm? After reading about IGF on on PM and other boards, I have some theories but would like to get your input.

I ask b/c sometimes using IGF in the morning can cause too much lethargy during the day; using around 5-6pm would be more convienent....

Sometimes injury repair, mass building and bodyfat reduction require different strategies. It is difficult to do all at the same time and accomplish a lot.

If you have an injury, healing it becomes a priority.

IGF-1 is therapeutic at 300 ng but is considered anabolic at 160 mg. That is a 500 to 1 difference. That is why they can take plasma platelets which contain all sorts of healing factors including IGF-1, put it in a centrifuge to get a high concentration of growth factor rich platelets and inject this concentrate into injuries. When they do that injuries heal at least twice as fast.

With IGF-1 or LR3 you only need a tiny amount. It will go systemic but to have some get taken up at the injury site you use micro amounts injected in serveral areas say a few millimeters away directly into the injury (or as close as is safely possible). Do this pattern of dosing by blanket injecting over a given area at least twice a day. This will greatly aid healing that area.

Insulin either pharmocological or high physiological is a healer as well. In part because its positive effect of protein synthesis and reduction in amino acid oxidation but also, perhaps more importantly it will make cellular membranes more permeable to certain compounds such as amino acids, creatine, glutamine, etc...

Increased GH levels are beneficial as well but are not site specific and the effect is slower. Collagen synthesis if the injury requires it is benefited by increased GH levels.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

CHAPS said:
If i were to dose CJC+GHRP-2 at 100mcg 3 times daily, what would that equate to if i were to iu's of synthetic gh?

Growth Hormone Administration vs. CJC-1295/GHRP-6 + GHRH

The difference is synthetic GH administered IM or Sc has a more profound impact on systemic IGF-1 levels at the same GH levels then does IV dosed GH or GHRH/GHRP.

What does that mean is it important? I could write pages about local production of growth factors and pulsation versus a rise in levels, blah, blah... but the truth is I don't know and I need a study (which hasn't been done yet) that measures how much IGF-1 is produced locally (in muscle cells) as a result of these two patterns.

CHAPS said:
Also i saw you mention that Peg-mgf was better than IGF-1, what type of dosing would you suggest for the peg-mgf and also the IGF-1.

Peg-MGF works, but not like the way your body does it. Your body makes it and keeps it in a muscle cell. It doesn't leave and there is no receptor.

But Peg-MGF is capable of binding to the IGF-1 receptor. It is likely capable of binding to the insulin receptor and it is likely able to bind to the IGF-1/Insulin hybrid receptors that exist.

So what happens? Does it bind to IGF-1 receptor and behave as IGF-1? Does it bind to insulin & hybrids and activate proliferating or differentiating pathways? If it is proliferating (and there is some evidence that it is doing that) then it is behaving as MGF.

The problem is it will have a higher attraction to IGF-1 receptors then the others (as long as IGF-1 receptors aren't blocked like they have done in experiments)...

So what exactly is happening... I don't know ...but neither does anyone else including Goldspink who has studied this stuff for a long time and people seem to revere him. When I challenged him nicely he failed to respond...

MGF the night before a workout makes more since then PWO. Dosing that is high such as 500mcg seems to work well.

Big Bapper loved Peg-MGF. He always called it Preg-MGF.

I never corrected him ... he just always seemed like such a nice guy ...looking back I'd say he was a loveable guy... and he was just that a big loveable guy... who liked preg.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

The Booger said:
I was wondering the same, assuming the CJC-1295 above is the one with DAC attached. Genuine CJC-1295.

I understand the dosing for modified CJC-1295, but not the one with the DAC attached.

Well you can get a little bump in a pulse by breaking CJC-1295 into 100mcg dosings w/ GHRP. How much? I don't know but it isn't huge... 5% - 10% extra over twice a week dosing maybe. That is why I dosed it that way in my original protocol even though the half-life is so long you can dose twice a week and be done with it.

Then adding a GHRP while the CJC-1295 is active will produce a pulse.

It really is a cool compound. The drug affinity complex is a really neat molecule that can be used to extend the life of many peptides.

But I get tired of saying it. There really is no genuine CJC-1295 out there. It takes a month to make a large enough batch at high purity and the right equipment and know how.

A GMP facility sounds pretty cool but it means very little especially when they have been repetitively caught in a lie. Now what chance do retailers have if it starts with a "turn of the phrase"? Besides retailers will always have a higher profit margin on non-Drug Affinity Complex peptides unless they charge 100 usd and up for a genuine 2mg of CJC-1295.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

chris250 said:
Ha ! Ha ! thats the wife ... FitSarah !!!

You married very well Mr. Chris... very very well indeed.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

DaRooster said:
Dat:
Would there be any conflict in taking Pramipexol and GHRH/GHRP's ?
Thanks for your time.

No and please do because if Macro ever sees me type out something about L-Dopa again he will rip me a new one.

Pram is easy to understand. You just go and read the drug profile. It is a heavy hitter as far as prolactin control. Pram's effect on GH release comes from the inhibition of somatostatin side of things unlike the L-Dopa which may also increase the GHRH side of things.

But I can't speak for Pram cus I ain't an expert on it.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

hghslinturn said:
Thanks Dat. I am looking into ghrp's whats the difference between ghrp 2 and 6. (in english)

The difference is GHRP-2 is a little stronger then GHRP-6. To make up for it you could always dose GHRP-6 a little higher & they would be equal.

So 120mcg of GHRP-6 = 100mcg of GHRP-2

hghslinturn said:
i want 7-8 ius worth of gh a day but thats a lot of cash so if i take ghrp-6 and cjc how much do i have to take (daily) to get 7-8 ius worth of gh?? Thanks again this thread is awesome.

The following post used CJC-1295 in comparison to GH: Growth Hormone Administration vs. CJC-1295/GHRP-6 + GHRH

Genuine CJC-1295 is different then other forms.

If you use it at 2mgs per week and GHRP-6 100mcg 3 times a day you will very much exceed 7-8 ius worth of GH.

If you have genuine CJC-1295 then you could cut the use to 1mg of CJC-1295 per week and the GHRP-6 3 times a day at 100mcg each and achieve a 7-8 iu GH equivalence.

I get tired of hearing Dat run his damn mouth so here is an example of dosing from a very solid well respected bodybuilder posted on this board:

lucian said:
my friend who is my size and strength is using ghrp6 and cjc1295 and gh. along w some anabolics ect for a show he is doing.
now its like this:
cjc1295 1000 mg wk
ghrp6 250mcg am and before bed
2 iu gh before breakfast.

been about 4 weeks. its like using about 8-12 iu of gh. he is dieting so maybe if he was bulking it may be like taking more. noticable fatloss, roundness. the same as using 8iu of gh last year. i guess if there is no good or real gh around this stuff is a good alternative. he may try taking more for the next few weeks and see what happens. as he tells me i will report.
deccent products that work.

god bless
lucian

lucian said:
my bad, my carb starved brain isnt working right again.
he tried it both ways 500mcg and 500mcg for a week to see the difference but it was no different. maybe jus tdidnt do it long enough.but i think as far as bbing goes, datbetrue is right. 2000-3000 might be better. just a hunch like gh. if 1-2iu is perscribed for whatever, 12-24iu are being used by bbers to make even better gains.
only thing is.....are there any sides like bone growth, ect like w gh at those doses?
also purity and how the vials have been stred has something to do with how much you have to use too.
my buddy got them when it was real hot out and they were sitting in a mailbox for a few hours. not to mention when they get bounced around in shipment.

all in all, not a bad product. both of them. if its cheaper than gh, its a good alternative with similar results.

god bless
lucian

hghslinturn said:
Dat my libido is insane from proviron. Can i stay on it for the rest of the summer and keep this insane libido?? (just started last week.)

Can you or should you?

hghslinturn said:
Another thing I have only been on a week and im already balding severely. What do you reccomend? iv heard propecia is the only thing that works but ironically kills libido and has all sorts of sexual side efects. using topical scalp rub called segals solution already but its no miracle. heard the new thing to do is crush up caffein pills and rub them on your scalp lol.

Proviron inhibits SHBG by binding to it. This means there is less SHBG to bind to testosterone which increase free testosterone.

When free (unoccupied) testosterone goes up substantially more testosterone is converted to estrogen & DHT.

Proviron is not unique in its actions. An herbal extract of Nettle Root (the one standardized for Divanil) will do the same thing.

Both may increase hair shedding. This is a result of 5-alpha-reductase converting extra freed up testosterone to DHT. Prostate swelling or prostate pinch may also occur.

Discontinuing Proviron will end the shedding.

Nizoral shampoo has a limited ability to reduce DHT in the scalp. To maximize its effectiveness you massage it into the scalp and leave it there for 30 minutes before washing it out. Simply shampooing with it does not give the product enough time to penetrate the scalp.

There are better ways to increase libido that are safer on the hair.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

gyno said:
Hey dat, my question is this...What caused you to start a short answer thread?

Also, if you notice, in the beginning the answers were 5 lines or less...now they are slowly getting longer and longer.

hghslinturn asked me the question that started the thread. He basically said

"hey dumbass do you write technical stuff in your thread just to make me feel stupid or do you have anything of value to say?"

The answer is "yes that's why I do it and no I have nothing of value to say but I'll start a thread anyway".

As far as the longer answers ... have you noticed they aren't technical, no studies sited... and some of those long answers are because the questioner ain't ever going to read my thread so might as well nutshell it for him."

Also if the answer is not clear cut I'm not going to theorize here. If I don't know I'll just say I don't know.

If someone needs a trainer I'll recommend Phil and some other fine trainers on this board. I am very familiar with Phil's techniques and they fit well with what I discovered on my own & what science tells us.

There are a lot better more straight foreward people on this board then I for sure... I have never really wanted this type of thread because I don't like seeing "Dat says do this..."

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

whiteknucks said:
dat, when are you going to start getting books published?

I seriously thought about two books:

One book would be on alternate day fasting.

The other is open ended... includes hidden strategies for anti-aging, defeating cancer and maintaining health...

The first one has the best chance of being completed. Limiting the fast to 24 hours means never going to sleep hungry, and that is easier to do w/ all of the benefits to health that calorie restriction brings. Bodyweight is maintained and it appears lifespan will be increased.

I have done this now for 96 days straight... we'll see.

The problem is most people jut want to lose fat & look good so for a book to sell it would have to focus on that area...

...this would probably mean it would be a book about my toggling approaches to things.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

hubby said:
Great thread Dat!!!A question in general for a general injury,how long would the healing properties or recovery from injury properties start to take effect?Many thanks!

I just answered a question on injury repair in the thread in post: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=602255

If you are asking something a little different then the answer I gave in that thread just ask again bro.

DatBtrue · Jul 4, 2009

chris250 said:
Here is a thread that will be 600 pages long in about 2 weeks from now...LOL !!!

chris

I thought you were joking when you posted this... but damn it looks like you were spot on.

Hey there is some of my Anglaise coming out triathloncoach! See I can talk real pretty British for you.

EasyEJL · Jul 4, 2009

DatBtrue said:
If you use it at 2mgs per week and GHRP-6 100mcg 3 times a day you will very much exceed 7-8 ius worth of GH.

If you have genuine CJC-1295 then you could cut the use to 1mg of CJC-1295 per week and the GHRP-6 3 times a day at 100mcg each and achieve a 7-8 iu GH equivalence.

so expanding on this, where the hell can I get real cjc1295 at a reasonable price?

I mean expanding on this, you'd say that a 2mg/wk of cjc1295 vs 1mg a week that the 2mg doesn't quite give 2x the results?

hghslinturn · Jul 4, 2009

thank you dat soo much

Nssca · Jul 4, 2009

DatBtrue said:
I seriously thought about two books:

One book would be on alternate day fasting.

The other is open ended... includes hidden strategies for anti-aging, defeating cancer and maintaining health...

The first one has the best chance of being completed. Limiting the fast to 24 hours means never going to sleep hungry, and that is easier to do w/ all of the benefits to health that calorie restriction brings. Bodyweight is maintained and it appears lifespan will be increased.

I have done this now for 96 days straight... we'll see.

The problem is most people jut want to lose fat & look good so for a book to sell it would have to focus on that area...

...this would probably mean it would be a book about my toggling approaches to things.

I'm waiting for the "DatBtrue's Militant Peptide,Slin and Roid and diet use hand book".
For all those searching for that freak on a leash... mass monster look.

EasyEJL · Jul 4, 2009

DaRooster said:
I'm waiting for the "DatBtrue's Militant Peptide,Slin and Roid and diet use hand book".
For all those searching for that freak on a leash... mass monster look.

He'd never write that, it would be "DatBtrue's how to be big and still live longer than those scrawny bastards handbook"

mxer_kx · Jul 4, 2009

Dat let me first say thank you very much for taking the time to help educate all of us

As for my question what kind of dosing protocol (more so the timing) would be recommended for insulin(humalog) with peptides (cjc1295, ghrp-2) for pwo and or morning peptide dose for the purpose of gaining mass. For example what im curious about is the amount time after(or befor) the peptide dose you should administer the insulin and with the pwo nutrition (mine is a shake) if ther is anything i can add to maximize everything i.e. leucine

Also i think we all are curious as to when you may be releasing this new article of yours, any ideas?

Thank you