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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:57 AM
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Blood work during HPTA restart attempt

Whats up guys,

Here's my "log" of my current restart attempt. Any questions, constructive comments, etc. are appreciated.

Let me give a little background, I've been on doc monitored trt for a little over 3 years (75 mg test cyp Sun/Thurs). I'm 33 yrs old.

I've had issues with back and chest acne while on. I've done cycles of accutane twice before since I was in my early 20's. This past year the cystic acne on my back and chest was getting so bad and scarring was becoming a serious issue.

My derm was aware of my TRT treatment, protocol, bloods, etc. and agreed that accutane was the route to go. We started low, 40 mg's weekly, no luck. 40 mg's daily, no real response. Bumped it up in a tiered fashion and got all the way up to 120 mg daily. (My bloods were coming back fine, no side effects other than additional purging and dry lips.)

As we we're nearing the end of final total cumulative dose, there still wasn't the same response we'd seen from my accutane treatments in the past. I also wasn't responding in a way that was typical for patients they'd seen at that dose.

In agreement with my derm and trt doc, we decided to stop TRT for awhile, see how my body responded, continue low dose accutane, then bump the accutane dosage up after giving my body a break.

Since stopping TRT and beginning restart protocol my cystic acne has cleared considerably.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:11 AM
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Heres a breakdown of the restart attempt so far:

My TRT doc recommended I just stop test and see what happened. I've crashed before and it wasn't something I could sustain. Here's how the protocol has gone down in absence of my TRT doc:

*When the decision was made to stop I switched to test prop, allowing cyp ester to clear, cleaving period would be shorter with prop.

*The last two weeks of injecting test prop, I incorporated 250 mcg EOD of HCG.

After prop ester cleared:

weeks 1-4: continued HCG: 250 mcg EOD, Arimidex .25 mg weekly
weeks 5 - currently week 7): 10 mg Nolva ED, Arimidex .25 mg weekly

Blood work was taken week 6 just got the results. Attached:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pg. 1.jpg (89.6 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg pg. 2.jpg (94.1 KB, 67 views)
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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The HCG made the initial weeks off manageable. It was hell don't get me wrong. Way better than the feeling of totally crashing in the past.

I feel "ok" on 10 mg. Nolva daily. I'll be stopping Arimidex in accordance to blood work.

Libido is definitely there, erections haven't been a problem either. I do feel less energy, less aggressiveness at the gym, and don't have that "on" feeling that I'm used to.

Since, my FT is way low does anyone think it would be wise to bump Nolva to 20 mg daily? Obviously LH/FSH are responding. Any thoughts?
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:07 AM
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yr hrt was 150 P/W., lookin @ yr test levels now what were they while on????
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnythunders View Post
Whats up guys,

Here's my "log" of my current restart attempt. Any questions, constructive comments, etc. are appreciated.

Let me give a little background, I've been on doc monitored trt for a little over 3 years (75 mg test cyp Sun/Thurs). I'm 33 yrs old.

I've had issues with back and chest acne while on. I've done cycles of accutane twice before since I was in my early 20's. This past year the cystic acne on my back and chest was getting so bad and scarring was becoming a serious issue.

My derm was aware of my TRT treatment, protocol, bloods, etc. and agreed that accutane was the route to go. We started low, 40 mg's weekly, no luck. 40 mg's daily, no real response. Bumped it up in a tiered fashion and got all the way up to 120 mg daily. (My bloods were coming back fine, no side effects other than additional purging and dry lips.)

As we we're nearing the end of final total cumulative dose, there still wasn't the same response we'd seen from my accutane treatments in the past. I also wasn't responding in a way that was typical for patients they'd seen at that dose.

In agreement with my derm and trt doc, we decided to stop TRT for awhile, see how my body responded, continue low dose accutane, then bump the accutane dosage up after giving my body a break.

Since stopping TRT and beginning restart protocol my cystic acne has cleared considerably.
How many days after your last 40mg was the blood work?
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:40 AM
emeric delczeg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnythunders View Post
Heres a breakdown of the restart attempt so far:

My TRT doc recommended I just stop test and see what happened. I've crashed before and it wasn't something I could sustain. Here's how the protocol has gone down in absence of my TRT doc:

*When the decision was made to stop I switched to test prop, allowing cyp ester to clear, cleaving period would be shorter with prop.

*The last two weeks of injecting test prop, I incorporated 250 mcg EOD of HCG.

After prop ester cleared:

weeks 1-4: continued HCG: 250 mcg EOD, Arimidex .25 mg weekly
weeks 5 - currently week 7): 10 mg Nolva ED, Arimidex .25 mg weekly

Blood work was taken week 6 just got the results. Attached:
You total test is not to bed. You don`t need HCG , Arimidex or Nolva, who told you to use it ? your MD?
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:27 AM
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Hey Buck! I tracked down the bloods I pulled in sept and they were as such:

TT= 887 ng/dL (range 264-916) a number of MD's I'd worked with targeted bloood levels higher. HCT would climb on me when I sustained 950+ levels.
FT= 15.1 pg/mL (range 8.7-25.1)
E2= 29 pg/mL (range 8.0-35.0)

When my E2 went higher than 32 and lower than 25 I would feel sides.

*I felt great with the protocol and at these levels. The only issue was the terrible cystic acne on trunk.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:41 AM
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Hi Emeric thanks for chiming in.

The one MD I consulted with on the endo side recommended just what you said. To come off with no serms, ai, etc.

The decision to run HCG was made by me due to none being ran during time on trt and slight atrophy was present.

Nolva was chosen in recommendation from the blood results in forums and studies published in NCBI comparing clomid vs nolva, the results and success rate in of accomplish higher TT numbers. My goal was to accomplish this is as quick as possible.

I've crashed before and there was no way I could've maintained my occupation with the symptoms I got from crashing in the past. Especially during Q4.

HCG and Nolva did in fact circumvent many of the symptoms I was trying to avoid during this time.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:02 AM
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Hey Emeric,

With your question asking: how many days after my last 40 mg dose were my bloods taken.. are you meaning accutane or nolva?

Nolva has been at 10 mg ED and was taken the day bloods were drawn as well. I've never gone higher than 10 mg.

40 mg accutane was taken 2 or 3 days before bloods were drawn.

Arimadex has been discontinued since I got blood work results. The low dose was administered at the beginning in anticipation of a slight estro rebound.

I have also incorporated 5000iu vit D ED on top of my standard vitamin and antioxidant regiment.

What are your thoughts? Based on bloods and history you'd discontinue nolva at this point?
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:36 AM
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TLR

Based on the before/after bloods during "restart" would our experienced members recommend:

1) upping current nolva dose from 10 mg to 20 mg ED for another 2 weeks?

2) Or, discontinue all together as I believe Emeric is recommending at this point?

Any constructive insight appreciated.

Thanks fellas!! Hope everyone is having a great holiday season!

-JT
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Old 12-30-2017, 02:20 PM
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I would drop everything and retest in 30 day's to see if those levels are holding without the hcg, a-dex, and nolva. That will be the real results. Please update!
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Old 12-30-2017, 03:09 PM
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^^^^^^ what he said. Getting bloods drawn a bit early. Gotta let your body take over then see what's up. Maybe in another 6 weeks then 6 after that just to see where you're at.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:43 AM
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Thanks for the feedback fellas as I go through the process Yeah I got bloods early to be sure I even needed arimidex and to see how my body was responding to the meds.

So what I'm hearing so far is to:

Definitely not raise the nolva dosage from the current dose of 10mg ED to 20mg ED and to discontinue dosing 10mg nolva entirely.

My concern with discontinuing at the 4 week mark is coming from the literature and studies I've read. The one's I've seen to show success have supplemented either clomid or nolva for longer periods of time to reap full benefits.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:44 AM
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Heres one of the papers I've bookmarked as one of my ref points:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010627/

From the bloods, we can see the hypothalamus/pituitary is "working".. is 4 weeks long enough to run nolvadex and expect continued GnRH stimulation after discontinuing? Is GnRH desensitization the concern?

It seems like nolva is a compound that has better results from an HPTA recovery stand point when ran for longer per the studies.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:48 AM
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My plan for Nolva was to begin tapering after 6 weeks of dosing 10 mg ED. For example:

week 1-6: Nolva 10 mg ED
week 7: Nolva 5mg ED
week 8: Nolva 5mg EOD
week 9: stop

Blood work done 30-45 days after week 9

Any constructive input is appreciated. I'll definitely keep the board posted with final bloods and answer any questions as we go.

Thanks for everyone's help so far!

What are your thoughts?
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:11 AM
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Wanted to give everyone an update: I decided to come off the nolva this week. Last week I was on 5 mg/daily. This week I feel good! (other than having the flu).

Libido is doing fine, haven't been in the gym due to sickness.

the big difference has been... I don't have that "ON" mindset. Not as aggressive (it has it's pros and cons for me). I've also recently noticed less anxiety.

The cystic acne has cleared up completely. Now just left with the scars. Im off accutane as well for the time being. Everything seems to be healing.

Im going to wait until mid/late February and test bloods.

Once I get bloods I plan on sharing a list of supps, tips/tricks, etc. that I've learned along the way that have helped me a ton in the process. For anyone thinking of coming off. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:12 AM
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Emeric, I've started reading your Pro thread. Very informative. Thank you for the content.

I'll be keeping everyone posted. I appreciate the feedback.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:13 AM
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Hows it goin fellas. Didn't want to bail on the update.

I ran into some personal issues and really didn't want to be managing this "restart" anymore. The cystic acne cleared while I was off for the past 5-6 months. I accomplished what I was trying to do. Now, we're just treating the scars.

In that time, I read a lot of Emeric's thread. Tons of great information.

I'm currently running daily IM 10mg UGL prop (I recently found out this particular UGL was sent out for testing at Anasci and most products came back underdosed. I'm assuming this prop is too. Not sure tbh.) Glad we have the testin community!

I have script for test cyp but, wanted to give daily prop a try since I had extra on hand and the shorter ester if I run into sides.

So far everything's going well, no side effects, feeling well.

I took bloods at 6 weeks: CBC, metabolic, lipids, thyroid, etc. Everything is well within range. These were taken at "trough":

TT: 591 (range 264-916 ng/dL)
FT: 18.73 (range 5.00-21.00 ng/dL)
E2 sensitive: 16.8 (range: 8.0-35.0 pg/mL)

Thanks for everyone's help! I'll post updates if anything changes.
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Old 07-28-2018, 03:19 AM
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You can daily dose the cyp just like the prop, it won't make any difference, that's all broscience.
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Old 07-28-2018, 03:55 PM
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You mean the term. half life? You're right though I may be switching back to cyp in the next few weeks.

I got pretty terrible sides toward the end so, if that were to happen now I want it to clear my system quickly.
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