2022 HPTA Restart

[John99Test]

Hi All,

My doc has signed off on my HPTA restart/pregnancy protocol while remaining on TRT. 50mg of Test Enanthate twice per week (Monday evening and Thursday evening). Additionally, he's signed of on HCG three times per week (300iu each pin). Also, I'll be taking Arimidex at 0.25 twice per week. The goal is to get my LH & FSH up enough to produce enough sperm to impregnate my wife and then go back on TRT. One kid and done. Can you guys weigh in on timing of each? Please see below and let me know what you think.

Monday - 50mg Testosterone Enanthate - SubQ
Tuesday - 0.25mg Arimidex
Wednesday - HCG 300iu
Thursday - 50 mg Testosterone Enanthate - SubQ
Friday - 0.25mg Arimidex
Saturday- Nothing
Sunday - HCG 300iu

3rd dosage of HCG: Not sure where to put this in....

I am planning on following this protocol for 9 months and then adding HMG at 75iu twice a week (weekly timing not established yet) I will be utilizing at home legacy fertility checks periodically throughout this process.

Back story - I've been on gear since 2004 and have never taken HCG before. Since 2015 it's strictly been TRT dosages (real TRT dosages - max 140mg per week). My chances are slim I'll recover fertility but I have heard of some men coming back online and fathering children. It's not an option for me to stop TRT cold turkey.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thank you so much. I've been on PM since 2008, and I've turned to this community time and again and they've helped me over the years. Can't thank you enough.

 

[Flex500]

Oh man I’ll follow this closely this is great! Our situations are a bit different as we had a kid in ‘12 and I knew what my count was then. I’ve also been on pretty standard trt doses like you.

I do have a few questions….

How did you decide on the 300iu EOD of HCG? In this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6087849/ 250iu of hcg EOD had an effect of a 7% drop of ITT…to start to recover do you think you will need more HCG? In that same study 500 IU increased ITT by 26%.

Although, if I’m in your shoes with all that time I can see why the idea may not be to start very low and you can what’s titrate up. I suspect…just from all the reading I’ve done and studies you will need over 500iu and likely 750+ to recover after being off so long…but who knows.

Here is a test my doc recommended for home test it’s on Amazon https://yospermtest.com/

If you wanted to go cheaper for simple progress checks you should try one of the vasectomy test which will show if you have over 250,000 sperm. Then you could move to the 20M ones.

How did you decide on 100mgs of test? Is that your normal dose or are you reducing down to 100mgs. One of the things I’ve tried to research a ton is the impact of altering test dose. On endogenous LH and FSH. In your case though, you are less concerned about endogenous production so the topic of test dose may be irrelevant.

Anyway good luck man I’m super interested in following your progress!

 

[John99Test]

Awesome. Thanks for replying. My normal TRT dosage was around 150mg per week so the doc is lowering it down to 100mg per week. He thinks that should suffice and with the 300iu three times per week I should probably be around 900 ng/dl. He’s against the AI in case there’s some epigenetc issue that I could cause harm with the sperm and potential issues with the baby during pregnancy. I’m going to be going very low on the Arimidex. Thanks for the recommendation on the sperm test I’ll check it out. Back to the HCG, he wants to start slower and see how I’m doing in March. I plan on running this til October and then two months with HMG & HCG. That combo is often the game changer as opposed to HCG mono therapy. Excited to get started but a bit apprehensive. It’s going to be a real bummer if I can’t get my fertility back and I’ll have no one to blame but myself. Time will tell.

 

[Flex500]

Awesome. Thanks for replying. My normal TRT dosage was around 150mg per week so the doc is lowering it down to 100mg per week. He thinks that should suffice and with the 300iu three times per week I should probably be around 900 ng/dl. He’s against the AI in case there’s some epigenetc issue that I could cause harm with the sperm and potential issues with the baby during pregnancy. I’m going to be going very low on the Arimidex. Thanks for the recommendation on the sperm test I’ll check it out. Back to the HCG, he wants to start slower and see how I’m doing in March. I plan on running this til October and then two months with HMG & HCG. That combo is often the game changer as opposed to HCG mono therapy. Excited to get started but a bit apprehensive. It’s going to be a real bummer if I can’t get my fertility back and I’ll have no one to blame but myself. Time will tell.

Hey think we/us/I all appreciate you logging this as it will help any.

All that totally makes sense I was just curious.

The test dose is super interesting to me. I came off all test from June-Early December so I was trying to figure out if I could add back some trt and what dose would keep my body producing some LH and FSH. I went through the horribleness of being totally off so I wanted to keep at least some endogenous LH and FSH. I posted the below but I don’t think it’s really applicable for your situation…interesting nonetheless. It’s also not clear to me if taking HCG totally shuts down endogenous LH because if so this is all probably moot because I’m taking a lot of HCG.




Interesting study and discussion on dose of test and impact on LH/FSH https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2104626/

Notes/thoughts:

1. Men treated with 50mgs of test a week over 6 months had a 50% drop in LH and FSH.

2. There wasn't much difference in 100mgs vs 300mgs dose as to the impact on endogenous LH/FSH/Sperm

3. The % drop in FSH/LH is directly linked to the % drop in sperm count.

Again, this would leave me to believe that if you must stay on TRT you'd be best served by doing the very lowest dose possible, specifically, under 100mgs and likely under 70mgs. Every study I have found shows doses in that 40-80mgs or so will only produce a 20-50% drop in FSH and LH.

The takeaway message for me is that it would be best to keep some of your own LH and FSH going, even if reduced, and lowering your test dose to sub 100 and better yet sub ~70mgs and closer to 50mgs and your body will keep producing LH and FSH. That also opens up the possiblilty that enclomiphene (or clomid) would likely do something on that low of a dose but is almost surely rendered useless on trt doses over 100mgs. Even more specifically I feel like this shows a combo of very low test + HCG + HMG + enclomiphene will likely be effective.

 

[Flex500]

Anyway man love that you are logging this and will be watching closely!

Also…this can all be a mind screw and the guys in this forum have helped me a lot. I think you will recover and have a child and I’m praying for you but take it one thing at a time.

Onward and upward brother!

 

[bellicose]

A little personal but did you actually get a sperm count test done? Though I was on for years and also off for a few year my total count was lower than ideal and my motility was low. Numerous rounds of HCG and HMG did nothing and in the end I did a high dose of clomid for a few months and it did the trick. It was rough emotionally due to the estrogenic side affects but it got the job done.

 

[John99Test]

Anyway man love that you are logging this and will be watching closely!

Also…this can all be a mind screw and the guys in this forum have helped me a lot. I think you will recover and have a child and I’m praying for you but take it one thing at a time.

Onward and upward brother!

Thanks man. Really appreciate the feedback and well wishes.

 

[John99Test]

A little personal but did you actually get a sperm count test done? Though I was on for years and also off for a few year my total count was lower than ideal and my motility was low. Numerous rounds of HCG and HMG did nothing and in the end I did a high dose of clomid for a few months and it did the trick. It was rough emotionally due to the estrogenic side affects but it got the job done.

I have not done a sperm test. I’ve been on exogenous test since 2004. It would be highly improbable that I have any sperm at all.

 

[John99Test]

Hey think we/us/I all appreciate you logging this as it will help any.

All that totally makes sense I was just curious.

The test dose is super interesting to me. I came off all test from June-Early December so I was trying to figure out if I could add back some trt and what dose would keep my body producing some LH and FSH. I went through the horribleness of being totally off so I wanted to keep at least some endogenous LH and FSH. I posted the below but I don’t think it’s really applicable for your situation…interesting nonetheless. It’s also not clear to me if taking HCG totally shuts down endogenous LH because if so this is all probably moot because I’m taking a lot of HCG.




Interesting study and discussion on dose of test and impact on LH/FSH https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2104626/

Notes/thoughts:

1. Men treated with 50mgs of test a week over 6 months had a 50% drop in LH and FSH.

2. There wasn't much difference in 100mgs vs 300mgs dose as to the impact on endogenous LH/FSH/Sperm

3. The % drop in FSH/LH is directly linked to the % drop in sperm count.

Again, this would leave me to believe that if you must stay on TRT you'd be best served by doing the very lowest dose possible, specifically, under 100mgs and likely under 70mgs. Every study I have found shows doses in that 40-80mgs or so will only produce a 20-50% drop in FSH and LH.

The takeaway message for me is that it would be best to keep some of your own LH and FSH going, even if reduced, and lowering your test dose to sub 100 and better yet sub ~70mgs and closer to 50mgs and your body will keep producing LH and FSH. That also opens up the possiblilty that enclomiphene (or clomid) would likely do something on that low of a dose but is almost surely rendered useless on trt doses over 100mgs. Even more specifically I feel like this shows a combo of very low test + HCG + HMG + enclomiphene will likely be effective.

You know maybe I’ll start at 100mg then lower to 80mg after a few weeks. The doctor I’m getting my info from and advice (while technically not being a patient yet) is at one of the biggest up and coming clinics. I unfortunately can’t mention his name since I’m not under his care yet. I will be in a few months though once this protocol is in full swing.

 

[bad rad]

Have you considered daily injections? I posted a study way back from a clinic using test cream and Clomid to maintain LH/FSH production in the normal ranges. The patient they outlined increased his serum testosterone ~400ng/dL with Clomid added.

I saw some stuff on Tribestan too that shows it helps to mature the sperm cells and increases the health due to its antioxidant activity. I started using it with my TRT and like the addition. I figured for $3/day (6 pills) why not.

I know hMG is expensive but here's an interesting study on dosing that showed improvement with only 12 weeks use.

[Combined administration of human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin in idiopathic male infertility] - PubMed

Changes in sex hormone levels, testicular volume and sperm count during hCG/hMG therapy were studied in 44 cases of idiopathic male infertility. These patients were divided into two groups and treated for 12 weeks. In group I, which consisted of 5 cases of azoospermia, 10 cases of severe...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[bodybuilder8806]

Pretty similar to what worked for me, but like you said in one of the posts the HMG is a game changer when added to HCG. The only other thing I did a little differently was I added 200iu HCG daily instead of larger doses split throughout the week. My experience at least for myself is the more frequent the dosing protocol for hormones the better, but I'm sure this can vary with each person.

 

[John99Test]

Have you considered daily injections? I posted a study way back from a clinic using test cream and Clomid to maintain LH/FSH production in the normal ranges. The patient they outlined increased his serum testosterone ~400ng/dL with Clomid added.

I saw some stuff on Tribestan too that shows it helps to mature the sperm cells and increases the health due to its antioxidant activity. I started using it with my TRT and like the addition. I figured for $3/day (6 pills) why not.

I know hMG is expensive but here's an interesting study on dosing that showed improvement with only 12 weeks use.

[Combined administration of human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin in idiopathic male infertility] - PubMed

Changes in sex hormone levels, testicular volume and sperm count during hCG/hMG therapy were studied in 44 cases of idiopathic male infertility. These patients were divided into two groups and treated for 12 weeks. In group I, which consisted of 5 cases of azoospermia, 10 cases of severe...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks bad rad! I avoid the daily injections because it’s a pain. I’ve decided to do 500ius of HCG twice a week. The days before my Test pin. So:

Monday - 50mg Test Cyp SubQ & 0.25mg Arimidex

Tuesday - nothing

Wednesday - 500iu HCG

Thursday- 50mg Test Cyp SubQ & 0.25mg Arimidex

Friday- nothing

Saturday- nothing

Sunday 500iu HCG

Do you guys think I’ll need a higher dose of Arimidex on this protocol? I am also on Finasteride.

 

[John99Test]

Also side note. How much potency do you think is lost when HCG (unconstituted) is past it’s expiration date.

 

[bad rad]

Also side note. How much potency do you think is lost when HCG (unconstituted) is past it’s expiration date.

Depends on how it's stored but likely still 100% potency.

 

[bad rad]

Thanks bad rad! I avoid the daily injections because it’s a pain. I’ve decided to do 500ius of HCG twice a week. The days before my Test pin. So:

Monday - 50mg Test Cyp SubQ & 0.25mg Arimidex

Tuesday - nothing

Wednesday - 500iu HCG

Thursday- 50mg Test Cyp SubQ & 0.25mg Arimidex

Friday- nothing

Saturday- nothing

Sunday 500iu HCG

Do you guys think I’ll need a higher dose of Arimidex on this protocol? I am also on Finasteride.

I'd be surprised if you need any AI on the lower doses. AIs don't prevent testicular aromatization and the localized E2 is toxic to the testes per studies I've posted elsewhere. I'd stay below 1000iu injections hCG due to that. In my previous years I dosed like below and had a few kids with my ex but I was more consistent with hCG back then. I'm likely going to start focusing on hMG since FSH activity increases Sertoli cells proliferation which leads to Leydig cell increases too, at least in research.

 

[bad rad]

Forgot the dosing.

Sat: 200mg Test, .5mg Arimidex
Mon/Fri: 500iu hCG

 

[bellicose]

I have not done a sperm test. I’ve been on exogenous test since 2004. It would be highly improbable that I have any sperm at all.

You have no idea. I was on for a long time and some very high dosages at times and still had a decent count considering.

 

[John99Test]

Forgot the dosing.

Sat: 200mg Test, .5mg Arimidex
Mon/Fri: 500iu hCG

Interesting. You don’t split your T injection in two? Like every 3.5 days?

 

[John99Test]

You have no idea. I was on for a long time and some very high dosages at times and still had a decent count considering.

Hmmmm. Interesting. In that case maybe I should. Thanks!

 

[bad rad]

Interesting. You don’t split your T injection in two? Like every 3.5 days?

Not when I started since that was the common wisdom back then, long esters once a week for TRT/cruises. I had low E2 levels so the single injection helped that too.