how did bodybuilders keep gains before there was "pct"

[sarcoplasm]

I remember reading somewhere that Tom Platz claimed that test was considered too harsh in the 70s-80s I am certain that deca was the standard back then like test is today I find it interesting that deca is almost hated today when it was the drug of choice years ago

 

[whiteknucks]

Huh !
I've never read anything that would attest to that ?
But,I would like to .
Old Fella
In addition you made some additional claims . May I ask how you came to these conclusions ?

Respect

not to be a dick, but do you even know how the "pct" drugs work?
you are only prolonging the inevidable by using them. so you actually need another cocktail of pct after your pct and on and on.........

dont try to educate yourself by reading Anthony Rob**ts articles.

 

[oldfella]

Listen,
You have a great many of HRT doctors who follow SOMEN sort of pct philosophy/protocol to restore testsuppression, hpta function ect. They do this by viewing and reviewing BLOODWORK!!! Do we think that they pull these principles out of their ass! I hate when a bro says I FEEL! restored or I don't FEEL shutdown! What the hell is THAT! Any theory on pct has got to be backed up by bloodwork just like any other medical protocol. I would rather trust a knowledgeable Dr. on this like Swale then some bros on the net (and I highly respect many of you) I'm sure it's not a cut and dried subject but to say it has no merit is hard to swallow. I do agree with one thing that Oldfella said though and that is that once you took that first jab your endocrine system is altered forever and my bloodwork proves that

Yes bloodwork does not lie. Look, as I have stated these are purely my observations from personal experience and reading up on the topic. Also from training with a few pros from the good ole days. Much has been learned over the years but we still do not have empirical evidence to show that such a thing as PCT using female hormonal preparations will start up your natural prodution any faster than time off will. I do agree that some form of estrogen supression via the feedback loop will assist. I have always agreed with the idea of keeping estr levels in check throughout a cycle and post cycle. But pumping in the miriad of drugs that many list as PCT is a crap shoot. I for one am willing to learn new methods, but not at the expense of my already screwed up endo system from years of comps etc. As always I wouls strongly urge anyone to go to thier doctor and get professional medical advice before listening to anyone on the net.

 

[jalsmiley]

can tell you guys this...clomid for me...was useless...bloodwork and sperminalysis tests to prove it....hcg, brought my test levels up to normal quick, sperm very high, but LH levels were low, which meant when i dropped the hcg my test was probably going to drop too...i used that to bridge into next cycle so i dont know from there how my natural levels would be if dropped hcg, next time maybe i will go from test, to hcg with nolv into my next blood test when i finish and see where lh is at....again...these are the thing needed to see what actually works, and it may only work for you , not everyone

 

[sarcoplasm]

[/B]Yes bloodwork does not lie. Look, as I have stated these are purely my observations from personal experience and reading up on the topic. Also from training with a few pros from the good ole days. Much has been learned over the years but we still do not have empirical evidence to show that such a thing as PCT using female hormonal preparations will start up your natural prodution any faster than time off will. I do agree that some form of estrogen supression via the feedback loop will assist. I have always agreed with the idea of keeping estr levels in check throughout a cycle and post cycle. But pumping in the miriad of drugs that many list as PCT is a crap shoot. I for one am willing to learn new methods, but not at the expense of my already screwed up endo system from years of comps etc. As always I wouls strongly urge anyone to go to thier doctor and get professional medical advice before listening to anyone on the net.

Its all good brother and your post is one if a gentleman. I do think pct is benificial/necessary in some form and trust the findings of those that accurately review blood panels but the specifics of pct I couldn't explain with certaintly, Hey we all take some things on faith don't we?

 

[KillerStack]

If doing bloodwork for testosterone and LH etc was as easy as checking your blood glucose we'd have a lot more data to go on.

There is plenty of evidence to show that many PCT drugs do kickstart endo production. There's no doubt about this. IMO there's some question whether it really stays elevated in most once you go off the drugs. Many of those who do do blood work do it while drugs like Nolvadex are still in the system so it's not your true drug free values you see.

As far as keeping gains, if your test is 200 on nothing or 350 with Nolva when off, it probably doesn't make a major difference in gain retention considering you were pumping in a "thousand times" that on cycle. And some drugs like the SERMs might hinder gains by lowering GH and IGF-1 so it might help on one front but hurt on the other. I know guys who do no PCT ever and keep pretty good size clean and who know for a fact their nuts aren't functioning much at all, so T production isn't the only thing that determines if you "keeps your gains" well.

That said, if I would do absolutely anything to hopefully be able to come off permanently at some point with a somewhat normal T production and didn't like the idea of life-long HRT I'd do PCT drugs such as HCG periodically. No doubt. There's enough data support this idea IMO.

 

[HOTROCKS]

not to be a dick, but do you even know how the "pct" drugs work?
you are only prolonging the inevidable by using them. so you actually need another cocktail of pct after your pct and on and on.........
.

Yes !

 

[Springbok]

great debate

if taking a tapering approach to say 750mg test that you had been running for over 12 weeks, how long would one taper for at each level?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

my doctor told me to taper off and don't use all the "PCT" drugs. he said you are really only delaying the body of finding homeostasis and balance that it can maintain on its own.
smart doctor. was a doctor of medicine. young guy. well built too
-JS

 

[ronnieron]

Why is everyone always trying to chase the perfect cycle, perfect diet, perfect routine, perfect PCT? There is NOT ONE, in addition everyone's body is going to react different to each of the above.
If there was ONE perfect PCT that allowed you to keep all your LBM and lifting gains, when coming off we would all be 500+ pds with <5% BF, and benching 1000+pds. When you come off you are going to lose some of the LBM gained as well as a decrease in strength it is unavoidable.
The best things you can do when you come off is decrease you training(not intensity but volume), and increase calories. Calories I do not think need to be all that clean, assuming you come off, in the off season. Bulk in the off season, off cycle, when your 250+ in takes a lot of extra calories to put on LBM, but doing so without extra calories and increasing BF is nearly impossible when of your natty. Many pros put on an extra 10-15% in bf in hopes of gaining an extra 3-5 pds of LBM. Than 20-24 wks out begin the cycle regimine and start to lean out. Of course I think slin an HGH would aid in the retention when coming off, I have never used HGH, I am to poor.

 

[Cactus kid]

Question

Many states on this thread that the old timers were not consumed on being huge year round but rather only winning a couple shows a year, and were much smaller in the offseason and spent months not trai ing at all.

But wouldn't loosing that size, just to spend 2-3 months getting the muscle that was lost in the offseason counter productive? Wouldn't it just ensure that you would be about the same size as you competed at last time?

Could the surge in mass monsters be not only to insulin/gh usage, but continuing to lift and growing in the offseason?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Many states on this thread that the old timers were not consumed on being huge year round but rather only winning a couple shows a year, and were much smaller in the offseason and spent months not trai ing at all.

But wouldn't loosing that size, just to spend 2-3 months getting the muscle that was lost in the offseason counter productive? Wouldn't it just ensure that you would be about the same size as you competed at last time?

Could the surge in mass monsters be not only to insulin/gh usage, but continuing to lift and growing in the offseason?

it does not take long to get back your previous size AT ALL. you must realize the power of drugs + genetics. i know this from experience and if you don't believe me then just take Kevin Levrone for example...

and it is my opinion drug abuse is the biggest difference. flame away
-JS

 

[Cactus kid]

it does not take long to get back your previous size AT ALL. you must realize the power of drugs + genetics. i know this from experience and if you don't believe me then just take Kevin Levrone for example...

and it is my opinion drug abuse is the biggest difference. flame away
-JS

Flame you for what?!

I always got a kick out of levrone, Lift only six months a year and stomp everybody!

I remember gunter schliter.... Did similar things. He would cruse at like 280 in the off season, then blast up to 330 and then diet down. I guess if you are happy with the
Mass that you have and are not really intrested in getting a heavier stage weight it is a "healthier" way of going from point A to B. I'm young, I want to be huge year round. It would be nice to have self esteem wrapped around how big/lean you are even in the off season, but unfortunatly it's not the case for many of us.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Flame you for what?!

I always got a kick out of levrone, Lift only six months a year and stomp everybody!

I remember gunter schliter.... Did similar things. He would cruse at like 280 in the off season, then blast up to 330 and then diet down. I guess if you are happy with the
Mass that you have and are not really intrested in getting a heavier stage weight it is a "healthier" way of going from point A to B. I'm young, I want to be huge year round. It would be nice to have self esteem wrapped around how big/lean you are even in the off season, but unfortunatly it's not the case for many of us.

well, i meant flame me for saying: that reason for mass monster nowdays is drug abuse in my opinion.

being big year round is not all its cracked up to be. LOTs of health risks involved with that.
best way to do things in my opinion is do a cycle for a show for about 4 months then get off everything.
unless you are a pro and have guest appearances and do multiple shows a year then that is a different story.
-JS

 

[dan525]

I would say a combination :
1-many did come off and lose gains, but the more times you gain a certain size the easier it is to get back quick(muscle memory)
2 doses were lower to begin with and easier to maintain gains
3 athletes were smaller and not well past genetic limitations where bodybuilders today cannot even maintain their mass without staying on .
4most of the pros were younger and probably would have an easier time recovering even if higher doses were used.
5less contaminants in the foods, water and air back then then we have today. I read a study where the average 40 year old had a test level of 600 back in 1980. I have seen many natural guys in their 30's have bloodwork and find their test levels are in the 300-400 range. I would think this may be a bigger factor then most people realize. Even looking at todays teens , the males seem to develop slower while females are maturing at a younger age possibly due to hormones i the food and water supply. Looking back at pics of my father and even 20 years ago when I was teen, I could grow a beard. I see a majority of teens now that don't even have facial hair. To back this up I will try to find a study done in London which descibes a feminization of males in mammmals, fish and humans.

 

[Magnum]

PCT is mostly a waste of time

 

[Springbok]

PCT is mostly a waste of time

so what protocol do you folllow when ending a cycle magnum?

 

[Emery]

I have to totally agree with Old Fella and Magnum.

This is why some hormones come in "dose packs" that are lined out to do the tapering, like Solumedrol or Prednisone!

I think tapering is much more proven IMO than all the PCT out there. A lot of that stuff has some serious side effects also.

Gotta go with experience and wisdom on this one!

 

[oldfella]

PCT is mostly a waste of time

HAHAHA
Well at least one person here agrees with me! Look, I suppose PCT for many helps them feel better about trying to correct a fucked up situation. So we do have what is called a placebo effect to consider. Before you all jump all over my shit here this is not meant in a negative way. The placebo effect of drugs is actually a good thing. It puts the user's mind in a state of positive achievement or recovery. This in turn does send out signals to the body that things will be back to normal. The body responds by trying to regulate itself to producing again. The brain is very underestimated in many forms of recovery. SO to that I can concede that PCT may have merit. But as for PCT being responsibly for recovering a highly taxed endo system......I still say no. As KS mentioned earlier in this thread. Many get bloods done while PCT drugs are still in the system. This is a false economy here friends. Stay off the PCT drugs for 4-6 weeks, then get bloods done. I would be willing to bet that this will tell a very different story. We are only just starting to see the effects of long term AAS use and abuse on the human body. AAS have not been widely studied at the doses we use to give us empirical evidence, but that day is drawing closer.

 

[d5332]

If I am not mistaken there is a big diff in how AAS was used in the 70's vs. 80's vs. 90's vs present decade.....

I dont think there is not such thing as super human endocryne systems that do not shut down... If you use it will affect you, if you abuse it will change you....

Early 20's I would come off with no pct the diff from now was that I would not stop going to the gym and nat test was high to begin with.....never noticed the drag, had friends that kept you going bc of the competitive nature of young kids...

Now, pct is not a bad thing at all....too many guys on HRT after staying on for years without pct...guys bouncing right back with pct...

Back then it was no different...either they did not use all year round or they stayed on on low doses most of the year...who knows!!! we only get to see them when at the time of the year when they look best...