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- Apr 5, 2007
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My take and experience on insulin
What the hell do I know and why do I know it?
Why am I writing this?
I’m not big on logs or starting threads on here as my post history will show since 2007. And I’m a pretty private person. This will be my most in depth post here to date. As many of the vets will likely agree there is so much BS on here lately. So many guys think there are secrets and that what gets posted is a lie. So here’s a real honest overview from me that is my experience and knowledge based on research, experience, wisdom and simply my opinion- so nobody has to agree with it or believe it.
I made myself and wife a promise when I got back into competing at 30 and to go for a pro card- I would do this as responsible as possible and find a way that didn’t destroy my health with all of my knowledge and experience. So I hope this helps others do the same. If it turns into a thread of BS and drama… I’m out and the mods can delete it.
So now that we got that out of the way, what is my take and experience on insulin?
I stepped away from competing in my 20’s to build my business and earn my degrees (no regrets), but still was in the gym daily. I dabbled in gear and some insulin.
My first experience- the standard bro set up:
10 units of insulin pre and post workout. 10:1 ratio of carbs to insulin. Humalog as that was all there was back then. Along with dextrose. Waxy Maize and Vitargo came later. Insulin was very hard to get your hands on (for me) during that time.
I did 8 weeks of this cycle and threw on about 20 pounds, but was constantly getting the ratio wrong and going hypo which led to me grabbing RTD’s of carbs from the local nutrition store and chugging them. Which then threw off my diet and rest of the day/training. I was young and very insulin sensitive so I vowed not to touch it. I was 22 at the time.
Fast forward- I worked with Milos in 2021 and immediately- “you will never win a pro card without insulin”. I wasn’t turning down the chance to work with the “mind.” And my childhood icon. So I committed all in.
We went straight into insulin on every workout day. This is public so I did insulin and carb intake based on the body part being trained. 6 days a week. The amount of insulin/carbs was done according to weakness. Lowest being 5 units pre and 10 units post. Highest being 20 units pre and 20 units post. Humalog or Fiasp and Gatorade or Karbolyn (I preferred Karbolyn).
Given we were trying to move up a weight class most of my days were high. So meal one, 15-20 units insulin at home 75g carbs from dates, then drank the difference during my workout which was a chore. 125g of karbolyn on leg day will make you puke.
Post workout 20 units of Humalog and no matter what 200g of simple carbs within 90 minutes of training. This was charles poliquin’s method evolved through Milos. So I did a shake with whey, kids cereal for 150g carbs, and then 45 minutes later did EAA’s with more Karbolyn 50g within that 90 minute window.
To note: No GDA’s, metformin, injectable carnitine or anything to regulate glucose as that was the job of the insulin. Simple as that. Then had the remaining meals which was a total of 7 on training days.
HGH was 10 units of Meditrope Black tops.
Almost 3 grams of gear (not disclosing my full cycle as it rotated every 5 weeks)
How did it go? Pro’s?
I have never gained so much size and fullness that quickly.
What did I learn? Con’s?
I almost ruined my midsection and lost my deep ab cuts and many lines. It created an illusion, but not worth it IMO. My joints ached and just did not feel good and blood work was not clean for my standards. The ladder was likely the gear and not just the insulin, but this is post is about insulin.
Next- our 6 months was up and he had just picked up Samson, Regan, and Logan so we agreed to part ways on good terms. Mad respect for Milos and what he does.
I worked with Andrew Vu shortly after and mad respect for him as he doesn’t believe in using insulin (did not at the time) as he believes it blurs the lines. And that was perfect for me as I didn’t agree with it either especially being married to a type 1 diabetic who takes lantus and novolog daily.
Next Solo Chapter:
After Vu I decided to do things my way for a bit and knew the power of insulin. I also knew the downside to that. In layman’s terms- insulin is yes, anabolic, but more importantly it’s a shuttling agent. Meaning, whatever you have or put in your body it’s going to rapidly transport into your cells.
I say it all the time on here- people use insulin to abuse food, not the other way around. Insulin cannot and will not make you fat- it’s what you put in your mouth and eat with it. If you eat shit and use insulin, you will shuttle shit and store shit. If you’re in a caloric surplus and take insulin you’d better make sure you’re only taking in clean calories and ideally keeping fats low and to trace fats that day. If you do eat fats it should be olive oil, mac oil or avacado and still lower amounts. If not and you’re in a surplus, you will store fat. Period. It’s simple CICO and math. This is where 9/10 guys get it wrong.
So I implemented John Meadow’s protocol (it aligned with current beliefs on insulin at the time) which is where I suggest all people start and will be all anyone really needs unless pushing for a pro card.
10:1 ratio, 4 units Humalog pre workout, 40g karbolyn intra. Do this for 4-5 weeks.
Weeks 6-12, 10:1 ratio, 10 units Humalog pre workout, 75-100g Karbolyn (based on insulin sensitivity).
Come off 4-8 weeks, use GDA’s and repeat.
Very effective and minimizes any fat gain as insulin and carbs are only used to maximize the workout and keep fats low and to trace amounts.
So what am I doing now?
This is where I’m not giving amounts, but you do the math based on your size and caloric intake. I also train mornings just to note.
Meal one- Novolin- R
Pre- workout Humalog
Post workout- Humalog
I push over 600-700g carbs on these days, lower protein and ONLY trace fats.
I ONLY use insulin on high days now which is 2 days a week- back and quad leg day. The first high day comes after an off and low day.
I use GDA’s daily- AM and post workout. Injectable l-carnitine 400mg pre-workout. And on baseline days still use 40g carbs intra workout with EAA’s and creatine.
Why did I do this?
Outside of because my coach said to. Dieting off the excess fat in the stubborn areas during my last prep was a huge eye opener as to what insulin and structuring your daily menu wrong (which was still clean) with it can do damage wise to your lines and gaining fat in the hard to peel areas. My goal is fat free muscle right now and this is the most optimal way to do that IMO.
For reference now- I’m doing 6 units HGH geno’s and under 2g of gear weekly. And my blood work post show and as of a week ago again has never been so perfect.
My take on lantus:
I personally will very likely never use Lantus and see no need for it unless you are pushing as a top pro competing at 240 plus pounds. Or if you’re trying to compensate for lack of genetics with insulin, food and gear. I say that as someone who doesn’t have the genetic frame of someone like Derek, Nick or Brandon as they are my same height roughly.
Lantus will make you insulin resistant and fast, possibly making you a type 3 diabetic and insulin dependent with prolonged usage. It’s long acting whereas Humalog, fiasp and novolog mirror that in which your pancreas produces so is more forgiving.
IF I was to use it, then it would be only once all else was maxed out, was a pro and would be max two days a week on weak body part days no more than 20-40 units in addition to humalog. And run no longer than needed to accomplish the goal. Monitor blood work, glucose levels and take metformin or GDA’s with injectable carnitine pre workout.
Not worth the risk IMO, but there is a place and understand why it’s used and up to 100 units by some- it will be effective, but likely come with a long term health cost. Only the individual can make that choice.
IMO and summary- Most guys are using way too much insulin and gear and not focusing on the diet. You want the secret? That’s it- fix your diet, eat more of the right stuff on the right days with the correct compounds and train your fucking ass off. That’s it.
I’ll let you guys take this thread wherever you want it to go.
FULL DISCLAIMER: Again, this is my opinion and experience. Not looking for a debate.
My hope is that the vets and coaches on here will chime in and share their experience and take as well.
But more importantly that the guys who need to learn shut up, read, learn and listen and we can get this place back to what is has been for me since 2007- the best, most raw and real bodybuilding forum in the world thanks to Big A and the Mods.
What the hell do I know and why do I know it?
- I have been bodybuilding since I was 15 years old, a member here learning since 2007 and as my username implies am extreme and passionate about the sport.
- As a teenager I got 3 training/nutrition certifications to pay my way through college through ISSA.
- Have a bachelors in human nutrition, food sciences and exercise;
- Obtained my masters in integrative and complimentary medicine. Had no desire to be a doctor, am not one but just love the industry and work in it with my business.
- My wife has been a type 1 diabetic since 8 years old so insulin has been an obsessive topic of mine.
- I have paid and worked with, and still do the best coaches in the sport- Milos, Vu, and now AJ who is my guy for 2024 until I get my pro card. Out of respect for the coaches and their work I am not giving out their “secrets” or specifics (unless it’s public) so don’t ask- and guys who do… NOT cool. Go pay them thousands for their time and commit for 6-12 months if you want that.
Why am I writing this?
I’m not big on logs or starting threads on here as my post history will show since 2007. And I’m a pretty private person. This will be my most in depth post here to date. As many of the vets will likely agree there is so much BS on here lately. So many guys think there are secrets and that what gets posted is a lie. So here’s a real honest overview from me that is my experience and knowledge based on research, experience, wisdom and simply my opinion- so nobody has to agree with it or believe it.
I made myself and wife a promise when I got back into competing at 30 and to go for a pro card- I would do this as responsible as possible and find a way that didn’t destroy my health with all of my knowledge and experience. So I hope this helps others do the same. If it turns into a thread of BS and drama… I’m out and the mods can delete it.
So now that we got that out of the way, what is my take and experience on insulin?
I stepped away from competing in my 20’s to build my business and earn my degrees (no regrets), but still was in the gym daily. I dabbled in gear and some insulin.
My first experience- the standard bro set up:
10 units of insulin pre and post workout. 10:1 ratio of carbs to insulin. Humalog as that was all there was back then. Along with dextrose. Waxy Maize and Vitargo came later. Insulin was very hard to get your hands on (for me) during that time.
I did 8 weeks of this cycle and threw on about 20 pounds, but was constantly getting the ratio wrong and going hypo which led to me grabbing RTD’s of carbs from the local nutrition store and chugging them. Which then threw off my diet and rest of the day/training. I was young and very insulin sensitive so I vowed not to touch it. I was 22 at the time.
Fast forward- I worked with Milos in 2021 and immediately- “you will never win a pro card without insulin”. I wasn’t turning down the chance to work with the “mind.” And my childhood icon. So I committed all in.
We went straight into insulin on every workout day. This is public so I did insulin and carb intake based on the body part being trained. 6 days a week. The amount of insulin/carbs was done according to weakness. Lowest being 5 units pre and 10 units post. Highest being 20 units pre and 20 units post. Humalog or Fiasp and Gatorade or Karbolyn (I preferred Karbolyn).
Given we were trying to move up a weight class most of my days were high. So meal one, 15-20 units insulin at home 75g carbs from dates, then drank the difference during my workout which was a chore. 125g of karbolyn on leg day will make you puke.
Post workout 20 units of Humalog and no matter what 200g of simple carbs within 90 minutes of training. This was charles poliquin’s method evolved through Milos. So I did a shake with whey, kids cereal for 150g carbs, and then 45 minutes later did EAA’s with more Karbolyn 50g within that 90 minute window.
To note: No GDA’s, metformin, injectable carnitine or anything to regulate glucose as that was the job of the insulin. Simple as that. Then had the remaining meals which was a total of 7 on training days.
HGH was 10 units of Meditrope Black tops.
Almost 3 grams of gear (not disclosing my full cycle as it rotated every 5 weeks)
How did it go? Pro’s?
I have never gained so much size and fullness that quickly.
What did I learn? Con’s?
I almost ruined my midsection and lost my deep ab cuts and many lines. It created an illusion, but not worth it IMO. My joints ached and just did not feel good and blood work was not clean for my standards. The ladder was likely the gear and not just the insulin, but this is post is about insulin.
Next- our 6 months was up and he had just picked up Samson, Regan, and Logan so we agreed to part ways on good terms. Mad respect for Milos and what he does.
I worked with Andrew Vu shortly after and mad respect for him as he doesn’t believe in using insulin (did not at the time) as he believes it blurs the lines. And that was perfect for me as I didn’t agree with it either especially being married to a type 1 diabetic who takes lantus and novolog daily.
Next Solo Chapter:
After Vu I decided to do things my way for a bit and knew the power of insulin. I also knew the downside to that. In layman’s terms- insulin is yes, anabolic, but more importantly it’s a shuttling agent. Meaning, whatever you have or put in your body it’s going to rapidly transport into your cells.
I say it all the time on here- people use insulin to abuse food, not the other way around. Insulin cannot and will not make you fat- it’s what you put in your mouth and eat with it. If you eat shit and use insulin, you will shuttle shit and store shit. If you’re in a caloric surplus and take insulin you’d better make sure you’re only taking in clean calories and ideally keeping fats low and to trace fats that day. If you do eat fats it should be olive oil, mac oil or avacado and still lower amounts. If not and you’re in a surplus, you will store fat. Period. It’s simple CICO and math. This is where 9/10 guys get it wrong.
So I implemented John Meadow’s protocol (it aligned with current beliefs on insulin at the time) which is where I suggest all people start and will be all anyone really needs unless pushing for a pro card.
10:1 ratio, 4 units Humalog pre workout, 40g karbolyn intra. Do this for 4-5 weeks.
Weeks 6-12, 10:1 ratio, 10 units Humalog pre workout, 75-100g Karbolyn (based on insulin sensitivity).
Come off 4-8 weeks, use GDA’s and repeat.
Very effective and minimizes any fat gain as insulin and carbs are only used to maximize the workout and keep fats low and to trace amounts.
So what am I doing now?
This is where I’m not giving amounts, but you do the math based on your size and caloric intake. I also train mornings just to note.
Meal one- Novolin- R
Pre- workout Humalog
Post workout- Humalog
I push over 600-700g carbs on these days, lower protein and ONLY trace fats.
I ONLY use insulin on high days now which is 2 days a week- back and quad leg day. The first high day comes after an off and low day.
I use GDA’s daily- AM and post workout. Injectable l-carnitine 400mg pre-workout. And on baseline days still use 40g carbs intra workout with EAA’s and creatine.
Why did I do this?
Outside of because my coach said to. Dieting off the excess fat in the stubborn areas during my last prep was a huge eye opener as to what insulin and structuring your daily menu wrong (which was still clean) with it can do damage wise to your lines and gaining fat in the hard to peel areas. My goal is fat free muscle right now and this is the most optimal way to do that IMO.
For reference now- I’m doing 6 units HGH geno’s and under 2g of gear weekly. And my blood work post show and as of a week ago again has never been so perfect.
My take on lantus:
I personally will very likely never use Lantus and see no need for it unless you are pushing as a top pro competing at 240 plus pounds. Or if you’re trying to compensate for lack of genetics with insulin, food and gear. I say that as someone who doesn’t have the genetic frame of someone like Derek, Nick or Brandon as they are my same height roughly.
Lantus will make you insulin resistant and fast, possibly making you a type 3 diabetic and insulin dependent with prolonged usage. It’s long acting whereas Humalog, fiasp and novolog mirror that in which your pancreas produces so is more forgiving.
IF I was to use it, then it would be only once all else was maxed out, was a pro and would be max two days a week on weak body part days no more than 20-40 units in addition to humalog. And run no longer than needed to accomplish the goal. Monitor blood work, glucose levels and take metformin or GDA’s with injectable carnitine pre workout.
Not worth the risk IMO, but there is a place and understand why it’s used and up to 100 units by some- it will be effective, but likely come with a long term health cost. Only the individual can make that choice.
IMO and summary- Most guys are using way too much insulin and gear and not focusing on the diet. You want the secret? That’s it- fix your diet, eat more of the right stuff on the right days with the correct compounds and train your fucking ass off. That’s it.
I’ll let you guys take this thread wherever you want it to go.
FULL DISCLAIMER: Again, this is my opinion and experience. Not looking for a debate.
My hope is that the vets and coaches on here will chime in and share their experience and take as well.
But more importantly that the guys who need to learn shut up, read, learn and listen and we can get this place back to what is has been for me since 2007- the best, most raw and real bodybuilding forum in the world thanks to Big A and the Mods.
Just saying.
