how important are strength increases?

[Aliendogstar]

exactly. you might lift as much as a guy twice your size but can you do it the same "perfect form" way as him. probably not that is why you are smaller or have joint pains. I know I used to let pride get to me and thought i was awesome hitting 425 bench for two reps in my early 20's but i had to bounce the hell out of it and wondered why my chest did not look as good as others that lift close to that weight. i put my grip in closer and cleaned up the form and now im sitting at a nice 225lbs cut at 5'7" and am a lot stronger. strength is important but so is how you use it. go ahead and toss them curls up instead of properly stretching out the fibers in your biceps and wonder why they are not growing. you may lift a lot like shit but you will also look like shit and get hurt in the process.

U mean the swinging hammer curl isn't good form? How about the flying lat pull? These guys can move some serious weight. LOL!

 

[showstopper83]

My personal belief is it goes hand in hand...i do believe you need to get stronger...a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle...but i dont think you should go looking to gain that strength and at the same time give away form....as in, the muscle should always be working not the joints? if that makes sense....I've found keeping tension in the muscle works greatly i.e. not locking out and constantly pumping that muscle...thats jus my thoughts :lightbulb:

I agree, never in my life have I seen someone look yoked and lift complete pussy weights.

When some bodybuilders preach reps in 15-20 range... they are often hitting those reps at weights much heavier than the average person can handle. "Light" is subjective imo to the individuals strength.

Just don't think there is any benefit to lifting weights that don't challenge you.

 

[showstopper83]

U mean the swinging hammer curl isn't good form? How about the flying lat pull? These guys can move some serious weight. LOL!

Or the guys that ask for help getting the weights up. If you can't get it up on your own, don't Fucking do that weight.

One dumb ass kid at a gym not only asked me to give him the weights on dumbbell military press... he could not get a single rep up without me pushing up hard under his elbows.

 

[swolepanda]

If I knew for a scientific fact I could gain lots of muscle from repping 135 for 100, i STILL wouldnt do it, unless I had my very own private gym. When I see a guy, who is bigger than me, I assume he is also stronger than me. This is a natural response. It's irritating and aggrevating to one's ego to see someone smaller than them throwing around more weight! Train heavy, train hard.

I care more about results than what other people in the gym think. Fuck that im here to win. Both methods work. Lifting hard and lifting high volume low weight.

 

[epoxy]

I care more about results than what other people in the gym think. Fuck that im here to win. Both methods work. Lifting hard and lifting high volume low weight.

Can I say in the 4 years since I posted this I have vastly changed my mind about how things worked and I would consider the 2011 version of myself arrogant and bull-headed?

 

[swolepanda]

Can I say in the 4 years since I posted this I have vastly changed my mind about how things worked and I would consider the 2011 version of myself arrogant and bull-headed?

Oh didn't even realize how old this thread is haha. You're still right about the train hard part though.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Thoroughly enjoyed the article but have one beef. Under the section, "It's Not Genetics". Well sure it is. They even say in the section, and it's good to hear, the importance of the insertion point of the tendon in relation to the fulcrum. That's completely genetic and cannot be changed or improved. Musculoskeletal leverage is the reason you see that little guy out-pressing you because his kinesiology is greater geared towards strength.

Look at it this way. If your insertion points are farther up the lever from your joint, you MUST lift more weight to exert the same contractile force on the muscle you're working. It's hard to swallow that the guy curling 90lbs for 20 reps is at an equal amount of intensity as when you have to use 140lbs for 20 reps. The downside is that the better insertions that give you more strength also make you more injury prone because you're forced to lift a heavier load to get the same amount of contraction at the muscle.

Good article to make a guy think and tailor his workouts to his specific physiology. If you do not have that better leverage, you will never be an impressive powerlifter. Not all bodybuilders can be powerlifters and with poor symmetry (a strange body-style) not all powerlifters can be bodybuilders.

Some people will never excel at either to a high level because they simply don't have the endowment of large amounts of muscle fibers at birth or a CNS with greater ability of motor units to recruit a higher percentage of total fibers where it would give you more contractile strength. I don't think that means you can't make great improvements but eventually you will hit walls which either can't be broken at all or not without extreme measures.

Then there's the guy that grows and gets stronger seemingly effortlessly no matter what he does in the gym. I hate that guy.

 

[GS]

15 Years ago my raw bench in competition was 520 lbs in the 220 lb class (214-215)
I was a decent size lad @ 5ft 7-8in tall.
Well ,one day i asked a top Pro @ the time @ the Arnold Classic expo how strong would i have to be to be nearly the size of him? He was my height but was 290 + off season and 260s in contest.He said you are more than strong enough,he said his best bench @ 300 pounds was 440 lbs! I was shrugging my shoulders?
I knew i wouldn't look like him no matter what i used in the gym,weights,gear etc but come onnnnnnn surely a guy who does 520 raw and 615 with a single ply shirt could be almost as big????
Now,i got the picture,yes you have to lift bigger to get bigger,but to a certain point.
Even with a bench that i had my chest was a weak point??????????
Bodybuilding is about training the muscle not how many 45's that you put on the bar.
Diet,pumps and super setting ,going to muscle failure with a certain weight using 8-12 reps was the key.

How many powerlifters that weigh 165 benching 400 plus pounds are huge?
2 different things that can't be compared. I have seen a few guys squat 1000 lbs and have small quads ,especially compared to some of the bodybuilders!

I seen a you tube video with word record bench presser Scott Mendenson and Rich Piana doing a chest workout.
Rich done 135 for 40 Scott hardlygot it,then Rich done 225 for 30 ,again Mendy made it but almost didn't.
315 was on the bar,Rich got it for 11 reps!! Mendy blasted it for 20!
Now here is where you can tell,Rich benched 405 for 5-6 Mendy done it for 20!
Mendy is a huge man but Rich blew him away as far as the muscular size!

I think the old stronger means bigger is meant for a bodybuilder to be able to make themselves stronger to a certain point,or to build up their base.
Say a intermediate bodybuilder who weighs 190's should be able to crank out at least 315 for a few reps.Then after a while he should be more concerned with other things such as getting that 315 for 8 etc ,doing inclines before flat bar bench.Maybe concentrating building the chest using dumbbells and hammer strength .....

Nothing wrong with adding weight but their gets to be a point where you have to add other factors in with it,

Now my chest is a better body part,even though 500 pounds would crush my ass even though i weigh\ 40+ pounds more and at times have less bodyfat.

 

[bigwood6975]

Good read. I personally try to go up on weights every week to increase my strength. Then change it up every other month.

 

[jstrong20]

Interesting article. But I still feel you obviously need to get stronger to get bigger. If you see some freak and he is only using 315 but is doing 15 to 20 reps with short rest periods that is still super strong. Just because he doesn't train in the 400 s for low reps doesn't mean he can't. With that said strength to size ratio is genetic to a degree obviously. Guys like gs above would probably be strong no matter how he trained. Also bill kazmier had over 22" Arms and that was in the 80s. I doubt any bodybuilders had much bigger.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Interesting article. But I still feel you obviously need to get stronger to get bigger. If you see some freak and he is only using 315 but is doing 15 to 20 reps with short rest periods that is still super strong. Just because he doesn't train in the 400 s for low reps doesn't mean he can't. With that said strength to size ratio is genetic to a degree obviously. Guys like gs above would probably be strong no matter how he trained. Also bill kazmier had over 22" Arms and that was in the 80s. I doubt any bodybuilders had much bigger.

Of course. That's why progressive training works. But pick any two guys and have them curl and contract their biceps with the force of 200lbs and each will have a different size dumbell in their hand. It's just physics.

 

[AllLoadedUp]

I think they go hand in hand to a great extent. But I am a good example how that is not always a case. I can't press for shit. Most I have ever benched in my life I think is like 315 for a few reps. That was on cycle. I don't even bother with bench. I can't increase my strength on it period. It doesn't matter what I do. Just not gonna happen. But guess what was the first thing to grow when I first started lifting when I was 13? You guessed it, my chest. I have these big, thick pecs. I hear this all the time, "what do you bench like 500 or so"? Its all because of how my chest and trapz look. But my weakness is my arms. Always has been. My arms might be 19 inches even when I am at a weight of 290lbs. I weigh about 275-280 right now. My arms have always held me back. Always will. Genetics suck. LOL.

 

[PhysiqueBrah]

They are complementary. Having more strength will allow you to lift heavier weights in higher rep ranges, which promotes better hypertrophy. Curling 140 for 10 is going to make YOU grow more than curling 90 for 10. Everyone has different genetics but on a personal basis more weight will help you grow more provided youre in the right rep range. Conversely, bigger muscles tend to allow for better force generation and so working hypertrophy rep ranges intermittently will help make sure your strength does not stall out. This is the primary point behind Undulating Periodization.

 

[timt53]

Thanks for the article. I have always trained as a bodybuilder but trained my son as a power lifter. He did quite well. Took the best overall lifter trophy at the Jr. Nationals at Venice Beach. I printed out the article.

 

[xpoc]

As a "young" man in my 20's-30's all I cared about was piling more weight onto the bar. I felt that size should be a byproduct of strength. I hoisted some impressive loads, used more weight than guys much bigger than me and looked pretty average. I definitely looked like I worked out, but did not look like a guy who trained hard/heavy 4-5 times per week. In a PL meet I was able to 3x squat my bodyweight and more than 3x deadlift my bodyweight. But my legs were skinny.

At age 43, I ended up blowing out my lower back to the point I had to take time off from work as I was in misery. I had an epiphany. Why was I breaking my back (literally) when, the only time I impressed anyone was at the gym? Why not LOOK the part? So I did a 180 with my mindset and began training exclusively to focus on hypertrophy. I was able to gain almost 18 lbs of pure muscle (natty) over the past few years. I focus on training the muscle not the movement. I do all that stuff listed in that article for the most part. As a result I get far more compliments than ever AND I have been able to avoid injury due to decreased loads and exercise selection. BTW, here is an article about a study that suggests that training to muscular failure is the MOST effective method for hypertrophy. And, shockingly it suggests that training with LIGHT weights until failure is just as effective as heavy weights.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/single-best-muscle-building-method

 

[Itachi]

I think they go hand in hand to a great extent. But I am a good example how that is not always a case. I can't press for shit. Most I have ever benched in my life I think is like 315 for a few reps. That was on cycle. I don't even bother with bench. I can't increase my strength on it period. It doesn't matter what I do. Just not gonna happen. But guess what was the first thing to grow when I first started lifting when I was 13? You guessed it, my chest. I have these big, thick pecs. I hear this all the time, "what do you bench like 500 or so"? Its all because of how my chest and trapz look. But my weakness is my arms. Always has been. My arms might be 19 inches even when I am at a weight of 290lbs. I weigh about 275-280 right now. My arms have always held me back. Always will. Genetics suck. LOL.

I'm the opposite. I can barely squat 315 for a few reps at my strongest but I've benched 405 for 5 at my strongest.

 

[ironlife82]

I also have found that my body responds best to constantly switching between heavy and light lifting. Ive seen both strength ans size increases using this method.

 

[lntense]

Who were some of the biggest? Ronnie, Yates, etc.. they almost all lifted heavy. And the ones who were big and didn't train hard or heavy ex. Dillett, imagine what they COULD have been if they did.


I believe strength and lifting heavy weight has it's place for sure, as well as hypertrophy, contraction, and focusing on the form/movement.



For longevity I wouldn't take it to the extreme because I want to do this for a while and not be crippled.

 

[sazo75]

For me they're very important, if strength isn't increasing something else needs to be progressing , like less rests between sets for the same reps, time under tension, etc. If strength or something like that isn't on point it really messes with me mentally.