IM vs. Sub Q vs. IV use of peptides

[123cctv]

The only way I would imagine that this debate could be settled, is if you have a subject exposed to each method in addition to a placebo and then perform applicable subsequent blood tests, measuring the results against each other. Then you could determine which method has greatest efficacy.

This has already been done.

By the way, dosing I.V. takes about 5-10 secs longer vs. SC inj. You do not need to tie off. Just locate a vein and inject.

 

[123cctv]

Iintersting thoughts. Though consider....

(1) Sterility and solution. Since IV introduces the drug directly into the blood-stream there is a much greater need to be sure of sterility and complete solution than there is with SC or IM. SC and IM provide a form of "buffering" which gives the immune system some chance to act before the drug enters the blood stream..

You can always test with an SC prior if you're worried about injecting something contaminated. If your methods of prep (got'a love the druggies methods of prepping) suck, and an immune response occurs via SC dosing, then you best rethink your environment or the substance. Of course if there is no response whatsoever, your worries are quite possibly unfounded.

(2) Scar Tissue and Collapsed Veins. Repeated IV injections will eventually produce scar tissue and if you have scar tissue around the cubital vein it will make you look like an IV drug user. I don't have a problem with IV drug users but unfortunately most of society does.

This really bothers me. First, collasped veins occur with chronic usage, not just repeated usage. One can easily inject many times each day with a slin pin and never experience any problems. Vascularity should remain unchanged -- but again, noting the previously mentioned conditions.

As for scarring, rotate a bit. Slin pinning reveals little if anything. Personally I've been dosing I.V. for approx a year and a half, not one scar.

(3) Technique. IV injection is the most difficult form of self-injection to master and learning can contribute to (2)..

What's the complication?

it appears there is only a slight benefit in IV over SC.

Slight? I.V. better mimics the bodies own secretion. Raises plasma levels by as much as 10x above normal SC/IM dosing. Not sure "slight" is an appropriate analogy.

 

[123cctv]

The tried and true way has never been IV,

Not with someone like you of course. You'd never try it, it seems. However I.V. has been tried just as much as any other method of admin.

On the package insert it says SUBCUTANOUS OR IM- NO WHERE ON ANY SAIZEN OR JINTROPIN BLAH BLAH BLAH DO THEY RECOMMEND IV- COME ON NOW

See the previous reasons why I.V. is not selected as the method to admin. Again, it has nothing to do with effectiveness.

 

[123cctv]

Collapsed vein promoters...

After a 1 1/2 yrs. of dosing I.V., sometimes as much as 3x daily, here are the many the scars I have to show for it. Do you see any? Actually, if you look closely, you mght see where a admin'ed twice today. However scars and collapsed veins require a bit of concentration to incur.

Always change up injection sites.

 

[iprimate]

You can always test with an SC prior if you're worried about injecting something contaminated. If your methods of prep (got'a love the druggies methods of prepping) suck, and an immune response occurs via SC dosing, then you best rethink your environment or the substance. Of course if there is no response whatsoever, your worries are quite possibly unfounded.

Fair comment.

What's the complication?

IV injection requires a sense of depth perception (so you don't go through the target wall on the other side) that isn't required by IM or SC.

Slight? I.V. better mimics the bodies own secretion. Raises plasma levels by as much as 10x above normal SC/IM dosing. Not sure "slight" is an appropriate analogy.

Slight according to the paper I cited in my original post. When you say "10x above normal SC/IM dosing" that is ambiguous. What exactly are you referring to? Peak plasma level is reached 10x faster? Total AUC (Area Under the Curve) is 10x larger? Plasma half-life is 10x longer? What exactly?

 

[iprimate]

After a 1 1/2 yrs. of dosing I.V., sometimes as much as 3x daily, here are the many the scars I have to show for it. Do you see any? Actually, if you look closely, you mght see where a admin'ed twice today. However scars and collapsed veins require a bit of concentration to incur.

Always change up injection sites.

Your cubital fossa shows scarring. You likely don't notice it because it developed over a long period of time. For reference here is what the cubital fossa normally look like: **broken link removed**

 

[BigEnough]

Mexican studies- oxymoron. Knuckelheads hope ya were not reffering to me. My education and credentials speak for themselves. B.S. Chemistry M.S. Exercise Physiology and Doctor of Chiropractic and on staff with NFL team currently. So knucklehead im not other things I may be. And I know about chemicals ie hgh gear etc. 20 years on etc. So please don't be throwin insults around. If you are educated and knowledable then ya know unfiltered IV use of HGH for a 119# newbie is not the way to go. Possibly with filtering som brand name US phararmaceutical. Not this chinese or mexican with God knows what and where. Ya dig?

We don't believe you! Now you can stop attacking members here, Sit back and read and learn, Instead of acting like a know it all with short man syndrome. OK? Good luck to you sir!

 

[BigEnough]

Collapsed veins

Couldn't it also have something to do with the drug you're injecting? I couldnt imagin Gh being as hard on your veins as say, Heroin or Meth?

 

[1Rhino1]

IV goes right in the blood stream.

I'm only going to address one Rhino here, as I'm convinced you both are the same party.



Literature re: dosage admin created via GH manufacturers are as such, i.e. SC dosing soley, is the accepted form of administration, though not due to superior performance!

By practice, the medical field schools intravenous administration. But it's not soley to avoid injecting air. Au contraire. In fact, it's common that small amounts of air often get into the blood accidentally during surgery and other medical procedures (for example a bubble entering an intravenous fluid line). No, the real issue is hitting the vein! This takes some serious practice, though probably not to much on most individuals, however there's plenty of people you'd swear have no viens whatsoever! Even these must receive medical attention if needed.

Worse, can you imagine the pharmacies trying to school GH patients on how to admin I.V.? That I'd like to see. Further, some simply can't stomach the idea. Most, especially children, which is what GH was intially formulated for, simply want the simplest method available. No blood (some freak on the sight of) and IF some youngin decided to dose an empty, already used cartridge, there would be hell to pay for the drug companies.



I do and have for more than a year, sometimes as much as 3x daily. This varies though. Time off is crucial too - not for the veins sake, but for effectiveness.



Yes, death may occur if a large bubble becomes lodged in the heart. 200mcg has this potential. Though who in their right mind is going to inject an empty syringe into their vein? If that's a possibility, I'd surely stick with SC/IM.

Your dead wrong about addressing both rhinos as one bub. I and strong rhino are two completely different people. And once again, this is a ridiculous accusation. This is the only thing you have said that discredits your intelligence.

Now I don't know what you do for a living, I will say you do seem to be pretty intelligent. I will however say the same thing to you I said to the other guy. Prove this, your basically asking me to hand you some money andet you go score me some junk. I don't know who you may be, I certainly am not going to just up and trust what you are saying. I find it hard to believe that the dosage iv makes it any more potent than doing the dosage sub q. It's the same amount of junk. Now if you were to use a recreational drug in the same manner, you would still have taken the same amount either in the nose or vein (for instance), the only difference is that it hits you faster in the vein.

I would like to see you put some documentation on here, why would i just take your word for it. Let's have one of these studies you got all of this matter of factual information from. Show me the paper work. Back yourself up with some actual factual shit, not just your word.

 

[strongrhino]

We don't believe you! Now you can stop attacking members here, Sit back and read and learn, Instead of acting like a know it all with short man syndrome. OK? Good luck to you sir!

If you would like a link to my website and proof of my credentials and accomplishments -PM me and I will be happy to give you a link- if you give me your word you will not post it here for i would like some ananomitiy. Do I have your word? Don't call me a liar bro just cause ya dont disagree. Ball is in your court. Are you a man of your word? then PM me. Deal?

 

[taba]

I find it hard to believe that the dosage iv makes it any more potent than doing the dosage sub q. It's the same amount of junk. Now if you were to use a recreational drug in the same manner, you would still have taken the same amount either in the nose or vein (for instance), the only difference is that it hits you faster in the vein.

I hate to say it, Rhino, but you are speculating again. Think about this. If junkies were to get the same dosage and level of affect by im or sorting, why are there so many that choose the needle. It's because it not only hits you harder, its stronger, and less expensive. You will need 2-3x's the amount for snorting or im injections to reach the same high. You see, you loose some of the product in passing thru you system snorting it or im. So goes for gh. Same deal.

Now think about this, have you every heard of anyone overdosing from snorting or im injections doing some downtown or uptown? I had a friend actually one of my bosses, found in his room with an ounce bag of uptown (blow) half empty passed out. He had been snorting all night and was rushed to the hospital. He didn't OD. He must have built a large tolerance for the stuff to not kill him.
If he had did a fraction of that, IV, he would have had a heart attack and kick the bucket.

I hate to say it but there was a time in my life that I have tried just about everything in my crazy youth before I was married with children. Been there, done that.

Gets me to thinking, what if my gh I received is weak or I have held on to it for a long time and its degrading, I just might want to get the most out of it and do the rest of it iv. BTW, 123cctv's arms look great for the amount of iv usage. Noone would think twice that he did iv usage. The trick is to never go larger than a slin pin and never go in the same place twice. Use some antibiotic ointment, vit e, or coco butter if you think you are looking like a pin cushion which you won't if you are vascular and have many areas to iv.

One thing I'm worried about is there might be some dumb ass newbie that is getting curious about this discussion and want to try to iv his gh. I say leave it to the big boys that already have very mature and serious muscles.

 

[taba]

Couldn't it also have something to do with the drug you're injecting? I couldnt imagin Gh being as hard on your veins as say, Heroin or Meth?

Collapsed veins come about because of this, the junkie heats his dope up and shoots it hot. That with the cut in the product clogging up the veins starts to put wear and tear on your veins. Also the scar tissue built up in the same vein leaves less blood flow making it hard for the vein to function properly resulting in finally giving out and collapsing. This I believe is the main reason for collapsed veins. Aspirating multiply times with the same injection also know as "jacking" doesn't help either. Junkies love to do this for the added rush it give them.

 

[taba]

Your cubital fossa shows scarring. You likely don't notice it because it developed over a long period of time. For reference here is what the cubital fossa normally look like: **broken link removed**

Gets me to thinking,
Diabetics show no scar tissue because they never inject in the same area frequently. I have a few friends shoot the prescribe slin multiple times per day. So should those that do iv usage. Just never hit the area too often. Never use nothing larger than a slin pin. Scar tissue can be avoided if you are careful.

"Kids do not try this at home"

 

[strongrhino]

We don't believe you! Now you can stop attacking members here, Sit back and read and learn, Instead of acting like a know it all with short man syndrome. OK? Good luck to you sir!

You act arrogant and crass.WELL HERE IS THE STUDY PROVING SUBQ IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN IV SO NOW YOU CAN STOP POKING YOURSELF BTW that dude who showed his arm- I see plenty of "potholes" not very attractive.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cientific-study-showing-subq-superior-iv.html

 

[1Rhino1]

I hate to say it, Rhino, but you are speculating again. Think about this. If junkies were to get the same dosage and level of affect by im or sorting, why are there so many that choose the needle. It's because it not only hits you harder, its stronger, and less expensive. You will need 2-3x's the amount for snorting or im injections to reach the same high. You see, you loose some of the product in passing thru you system snorting it or im. So goes for gh. Same deal.

Now think about this, have you every heard of anyone overdosing from snorting or im injections doing some downtown or uptown? I had a friend actually one of my bosses, found in his room with an ounce bag of uptown (blow) half empty passed out. He had been snorting all night and was rushed to the hospital. He didn't OD. He must have built a large tolerance for the stuff to not kill him.
If he had did a fraction of that, IV, he would have had a heart attack and kick the bucket.

I hate to say it but there was a time in my life that I have tried just about everything in my crazy youth before I was married with children. Been there, done that.

Gets me to thinking, what if my gh I received is weak or I have held on to it for a long time and its degrading, I just might want to get the most out of it and do the rest of it iv. BTW, 123cctv's arms look great for the amount of iv usage. Noone would think twice that he did iv usage. The trick is to never go larger than a slin pin and never go in the same place twice. Use some antibiotic ointment, vit e, or coco butter if you think you are looking like a pin cushion which you won't if you are vascular and have many areas to iv.

One thing I'm worried about is there might be some dumb ass newbie that is getting curious about this discussion and want to try to iv his gh. I say leave it to the big boys that already have very mature and serious muscles.

I can def see what you are saying bubba. I would def see a guy go down hill for trying to iv that much dope. The big difference is that it hits you all at one time. I have come pretty close to od snorting coke myself, but much closer shooting it.

The reason for the reference to recreational drug use was more of a comparison to cleanliness, and maybe not even a good one. But what I am getting at here is that we are shoving this under the skin, it like slin goes systematic pretty quick. It goes to running here or there and doing its intended work pretty quick. I don't see putting it into your vein being any different in dosage, I can only see it being more effective in getting it in your blood now.

I want some solid evidence that this hgh usage iv is much more potent than sub q. This is something none of you have been able to produce. I don't see US losing some of our dose in our belly, I mean maybe you could lose some in the nostril, mostly just what you swallow while your snorting. But even it will be in your blood stream before long.

I am actually really honestly interested in seeing some actual documentation expressing the same points all of you are stressing. I said it once and ill say it again, it would be hard for me not to use gh iv if it were proven more effective and more potent. But there isn't a single piece of paper expressing this posted here.

That shit is expensive, I want to get the most out of it.

 

[auspex]

SQ vs IV

Rhino1: I find it hard to believe that the dosage iv makes it any more potent than doing the dosage sub q. It's the same amount of junk.[/QUOTE]

This is from the HUMATROPE(Lilly) package insert
http://pi.lilly.com/us/humatrope-cart-pi.pdf[/url]

12.3 Pharmacokinetics
Absorption — Humatrope has been studied following intramuscular, subcutaneous, and intravenous administration in adult
volunteers (see Figure 1). The absolute bioavailability of somatropin is 75% and 63% after subcutaneous and intramuscular
administration, respectively.

Of course the IV absolute bioavailability would be 100%

Unfortunately No, SQ results in less being bioavailable. Therefore it is not the same amount getting into the body.

 

[123cctv]

IV injection requires a sense of depth perception (so you don't go through the target wall on the other side) that isn't required by IM or SC.

This is generally resolved utlizing a 5/16 needle. Anything @ 1/2 in. or above may cause problems. Agreed.

Slight according to the paper I cited in my original post. When you say "10x above normal SC/IM dosing" that is ambiguous. What exactly are you referring to? Peak plasma level is reached 10x faster? Total AUC (Area Under the Curve) is 10x larger? Plasma half-life is 10x longer? What exactly?

If you had of read the link taba previously offered, this would have been explained. I assumied you did. No matter, this will be addressed once again below.

 

[123cctv]

Your cubital fossa shows scarring. You likely don't notice it because it developed over a long period of time. For reference here is what the cubital fossa normally look like: **broken link removed**

I believe you're misinterpreting what you're seeing and classifying it as scarrng. I'm not saying this to quible, simply to point out how clean someone can be after a year & a 1/2.

Here's a close up, just for kicks.

 

[shovelhed82]

Rhino1: I find it hard to believe that the dosage iv makes it any more potent than doing the dosage sub q. It's the same amount of junk.

This is from the HUMATROPE(Lilly) package insert
http://pi.lilly.com/us/humatrope-cart-pi.pdf[/url]

12.3 Pharmacokinetics
Absorption — Humatrope has been studied following intramuscular, subcutaneous, and intravenous administration in adult
volunteers (see Figure 1). The absolute bioavailability of somatropin is 75% and 63% after subcutaneous and intramuscular
administration, respectively.

Of course the IV absolute bioavailability would be 100%

Unfortunately No, SQ results in less being bioavailable. Therefore it is not the same amount getting into the body.[/QUOTE]

Thanks bro, by far the best info in this thread...

edit: There was a link I clicked on for the package insert now it's gone WTF?

 

[123cctv]

Couldn't it also have something to do with the drug you're injecting? I couldnt imagin Gh being as hard on your veins as say, Heroin or Meth?

Thanks for the welcome Bigenough!

Taba made some great points on causes and effects of usage! Here are some other points I made some time back on another thread regarding such.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...ubling-hgh-dose-big-changes-3.html#post846099


"Permanent vein collapse occurs as a consequence of:

1. Long-term injecting.
2. Repeated injections, especially with blunt needles. (A new 31 gauge slin needle is hardly a fair comparison, especially when a Doc draws blood - they're a much larger gauge).
3. Poor technique.
4. Injection of substances which irritate the veins. (DRUGS - heroin being chief)
5. Smaller veins may collapse as a consequence of too much suction being used when pulling back against the plunger of the syringe to check that the needle is in the vein. This will pull the sides of the vein together and, especially if they are inflamed, they may stick together causing the vein to block. Removing the needle too quickly after injecting can have a similar effect.

Collapsed vein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I"ve been dosing GH via IV for more than a year now. Naturally I rotate areas. Always use a slin 31 gauge - nothing larger than. If I'm unsure that I'm in a vein (you'll know how to tell after a while) I still do not pull back on the plunger, instead, blood just creeps back into the chamber all by itself (slowly). This will let you know you're in a vein without pulling back (creating suction), then inject slowly, never rush it by slamming the liquid in as I've seen some do. If you've missed the vein - well then you gave yourself a SC shot instead! Though as I said, you'll eventually become a pro at it.