What’s your gh dosage ?

[Black Beard]

I feel tired throughout out the day even without gh but when gh is added in it’s ridiculous. I am so tired all day

For starters, Get free T4 / Free T3/ TSH/ Ferritin/ Vitamin B12/ vitamin D checked for starters. Watch for any supplements like high dose magnesium that can contribute to fatigue. low carb/vegan/carnivore diets and rule out sleep apnea. Also too low or too high estradiol, too high AAS, certain meds like beta blockers or psych meds, a lot of these can contribute to fatigue.


It can help to pinpoint when you started feeling that way and what lifestyle/diet/medication/supplement changes you had around that time.


If you're that tired, there is probably some issue that needs to be addressed and can be fixed.

 

[okko]

Yeah, it still works. You're going to release fatty acids from that shot and use them as fuel overnight.

MWF energy levels vs daily GH is like night and day for me as well. You still get wellbeing, muscle fullness and all the benefits.



Usually around midnight. So ive done shots around 10 PM and 11 PM the past week with success. I wont do it right before bed cause that would wake me up more and i'm already relaxing/falling asleep by then.

Exactly doing the same with same effect on sleep (better) and tiredness (none) and BS (none) and HR (unchanged at 55-60)
I use GH during cruise due to minor surgeries so i also expect it will accelerate healing and recovery

 

[Black Beard]

Exactly doing the same with same effect on sleep (better) and tiredness (none) and BS (none) and HR (unchanged at 55-60)
I use GH during cruise due to minor surgeries so i also expect it will accelerate healing and recovery

That's another very significant difference you reminded me of; the heart rate. I can take 10 IU MWF without increased heart rate (equal to 4-5 IU daily).


That heart rate increase is likely from the hyperinsulinemia from daily injections and/or a direct effect of the GH on the heart or nervous system.


Anecdotally, i noticed much faster healing from MWF with minor strains from the gym. Makes sense, if extra glucose is floating around or not being absorbed as efficiently, that's less energy for cells to repair themselves.


We know hyperglycemia and insulin resistance is linked to delayed wound healing and there is research showing that GH infusion actually DELAYED wound closure.

 

[Hyperemia]

there is research showing that GH infusion actually DELAYED wound closure.

I'd be interested in reading about this if you have any links.

 

[Black Beard]

I'd be interested in reading about this if you have any links.

"wound closure was even delayed as a result of increased granulation tissue formation"

Growth Hormone (GH) and Wound Healing

Wound healing is complex and numerous factors overlap perfectly with the goal of wound closure. Among them, we will focus on a large amount of experimental and clinical evidence on the action of GH in wound repair. We will analyze how the physiological rhythm of GH secretion influences this...

www.intechopen.com

Few caveats being this one is on mice and the paper it cites even mentioned it can be beneficial, it's the high doses that likely cause issues. This is just one paper, there are some others i've read.

In burn patients, HGH generally speeds it up, so i also believe the type of wound may also be a factor.

I'll dig around for some more links later

 

[goback2013]

I fractured my rib two weeks ago(confirmed with MRI). couldn't move my arm or anything for 2 days. Been on 4-6iu of growth. Was able to squat with weight on my back yesterday.
Was also able to bench 315 two days ago.
Also able to do pull ups without issue or any pain.
Not sure if it's the growth or a combination of that, anabolics, food, and other supposedly healing promoting supplements

 

[Oldwhitedude]

That's another very significant difference you reminded me of; the heart rate. I can take 10 IU MWF without increased heart rate (equal to 4-5 IU daily).


That heart rate increase is likely from the hyperinsulinemia from daily injections and/or a direct effect of the GH on the heart or nervous system.


Anecdotally, i noticed much faster healing from MWF with minor strains from the gym. Makes sense, if extra glucose is floating around or not being absorbed as efficiently, that's less energy for cells to repair themselves.


We know hyperglycemia and insulin resistance is linked to delayed wound healing and there is research showing that GH infusion actually DELAYED wound closure.

On the note of healing. I've been on GH and a little Deca for a few weeks now since I've ramped things up a little and my gosh, this recurring lower back issue has disappeared entirely.

Obviously I don't want to be reckless when I go back on trt but to be able to train without any pain is just so good. I'm going to have to reconsider the previous trt protocol.

 

[Black Beard]

On the note of healing. I've been on GH and a little Deca for a few weeks now since I've ramped things up a little and my gosh, this recurring lower back issue has disappeared entirely.

Obviously I don't want to be reckless when I go back on trt but to be able to train without any pain is just so good. I'm going to have to reconsider the previous trt protocol.

Yep, HGH/IGF-1 is one of the major reasons we start to "Feel old" even with TRT (aches/pains, slow recovery from exercise, poorer sleep quality/duration). It's the missing link to most TRT protocols in aging men. HGH/IGF-1 can even affect circulation/ erections, as well as cognitive function, immunity, etc.

 

[nidnoy]

If you are older a little hgh can really be a nice addition. Not sure how old you need to be I know being 50+ personally it is nice and by little like 3-3.5 iu per day, I assume that is a little. Look, feel, gym performance, it’s my favorite addition to trt. I am kind of doing emerics 70 mg per week, then 140 per week, each for 8 weeks, etc, no humanafort, and at either dose of test that hgh makes noticeable difference, at least for me.

 

[goback2013]

Yep, HGH/IGF-1 is one of the major reasons we start to "Feel old" even with TRT (aches/pains, slow recovery from exercise, poorer sleep quality/duration). It's the missing link to most TRT protocols in aging men. HGH/IGF-1 can even affect circulation/ erections, as well as cognitive function, immunity, etc.

Hmm. I ran 6miles on paved path at the park.
Then ran another 3 miles at the gym treadmill.
So 9 miles today total. Legs feel good. Knees.
Just feel good overall. Don't feel like I'm in my 50s have to remind myself of that.

 

[beast405]

For starters, Get free T4 / Free T3/ TSH/ Ferritin/ Vitamin B12/ vitamin D checked for starters. Watch for any supplements like high dose magnesium that can contribute to fatigue. low carb/vegan/carnivore diets and rule out sleep apnea. Also too low or too high estradiol, too high AAS, certain meds like beta blockers or psych meds, a lot of these can contribute to fatigue.


It can help to pinpoint when you started feeling that way and what lifestyle/diet/medication/supplement changes you had around that time.


If you're that tired, there is probably some issue that needs to be addressed and can be fixed.

I have sleep apnea. Have been on cpap for years. Just now kinda getting use to it. But yeah Is about time to do bloods again soon. Haven’t done blood panels in maybe a year give or take

 

[Black Beard]

I have sleep apnea. Have been on cpap for years. Just now kinda getting use to it. But yeah Is about time to do bloods again soon. Haven’t done blood panels in maybe a year give or take

were you experiencing fatigue a year ago with your last labs? They might have a clue in there somewhere.

 

[Hyperemia]

"wound closure was even delayed as a result of increased granulation tissue formation"

Growth Hormone (GH) and Wound Healing

Wound healing is complex and numerous factors overlap perfectly with the goal of wound closure. Among them, we will focus on a large amount of experimental and clinical evidence on the action of GH in wound repair. We will analyze how the physiological rhythm of GH secretion influences this...

www.intechopen.com

Few caveats being this one is on mice and the paper it cites even mentioned it can be beneficial, it's the high doses that likely cause issues. This is just one paper, there are some others i've read.

In burn patients, HGH generally speeds it up, so i also believe the type of wound may also be a factor.

I'll dig around for some more links later

Thanks, appreciate it, There's a lot to unpack there. I wish they would have mentioned doses instead of just linking the studies. Going to take a bit to get through it all.

This stood out to me regarding healing,

"The high concentration of glucose in diabetic patients inhibits the proliferation of fibroblasts and favors resistance to growth factors, decreasing wound healing".

This is a stretch as I haven't gone through everything thoroughly yet, but maybe GH is most beneficial to healing when taken at a dose that doesn't significantly raise BG levels. As a side note, maybe a low or medium carb diet is best for optimal healing regardless of exogenous GH. Just thinking out loud as I've got another surgery approaching.

 

[Black Beard]

Thanks, appreciate it, There's a lot to unpack there. I wish they would have mentioned doses instead of just linking the studies. Going to take a bit to get through it all.

This stood out to me regarding healing,

"The high concentration of glucose in diabetic patients inhibits the proliferation of fibroblasts and favors resistance to growth factors, decreasing wound healing".

This is a stretch as I haven't gone through everything thoroughly yet, but maybe GH is most beneficial to healing when taken at a dose that doesn't significantly raise BG levels. As a side note, maybe a low or medium carb diet is best for optimal healing regardless of exogenous GH. Just thinking out loud as I've got another surgery approaching.

That might be part of. Both high blood glucose (directly toxic to cells and upregulates enzymes that breakdown collagen AKA matrix metalloproteinases) and insulin resistance (without insulin, the calories/protein/etc cannot enter the call and be used for fuel/repair). There are a lot of studies showing very potent wound healing effect from TOPICAL insulin. Insulin and IGF-1 are especially potent for wound healing.


Some believe it's also possible to be HGH/IGF-1 resistant with constant exposure to HGH. Which makes sense since IGF-1 behaves very similarly to insulin (IGF-1 can bind to the insulin receptor and lower blood sugar, albeit less potently than pure insulin). That's one reason it's called "Insulin like growth factor -1"


For optimal healing from surgery: 1. High protein diet 2. Vitamin C+Zinc (1g to 3 g and 30 mg-50 mg respectively) 3. Bonus: add collagen peptides. This works extremely well for all kinds of wounds; surgical, bed sores, vascular ulcers, etc.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Thanks, appreciate it, There's a lot to unpack there. I wish they would have mentioned doses instead of just linking the studies. Going to take a bit to get through it all.

This stood out to me regarding healing,

"The high concentration of glucose in diabetic patients inhibits the proliferation of fibroblasts and favors resistance to growth factors, decreasing wound healing".

This is a stretch as I haven't gone through everything thoroughly yet, but maybe GH is most beneficial to healing when taken at a dose that doesn't significantly raise BG levels. As a side note, maybe a low or medium carb diet is best for optimal healing regardless of exogenous GH. Just thinking out loud as I've got another surgery approaching.

I hear ketogenic diets are inherently anti inflammatory:

The Effect of Ketogenic Diet on Inflammatory Arthritis and Cardiovascular Health in Rheumatic Conditions: A Mini Review

The principle of ketogenic diet (KD) is restriction of carbohydrates to a maximum of 5–10% of the total daily caloric intake, aiming at shifting body metabolism toward ketone bodies. Different studies suggested promising results of KD to help patients to lose weight, to reduce insulin...

www.frontiersin.org

And influence wound healing, although it's a little harder to find human studies on that for obvious reasons:

Ketogenic Diet Enhances Delayed Wound Healing in Immunocompromised Rats: A Histological and Immunohistochemical Study

Introduction: Wound healing is a complicated process that can be affected by various factors. Glucocorticoids delay the process of wound healing by several mechanisms. The ketogenic diet could aid in the treatment of several skin diseases especially those associated with oxidative stress.Aim of...

ejh.journals.ekb.eg

I personally am in ketosis for most of the week and I feel better doing so.

 

[Black Beard]

I hear ketogenic diets are inherently anti inflammatory:

The Effect of Ketogenic Diet on Inflammatory Arthritis and Cardiovascular Health in Rheumatic Conditions: A Mini Review

The principle of ketogenic diet (KD) is restriction of carbohydrates to a maximum of 5–10% of the total daily caloric intake, aiming at shifting body metabolism toward ketone bodies. Different studies suggested promising results of KD to help patients to lose weight, to reduce insulin...

www.frontiersin.org

And influence wound healing, although it's a little harder to find human studies on that for obvious reasons:

Ketogenic Diet Enhances Delayed Wound Healing in Immunocompromised Rats: A Histological and Immunohistochemical Study

Introduction: Wound healing is a complicated process that can be affected by various factors. Glucocorticoids delay the process of wound healing by several mechanisms. The ketogenic diet could aid in the treatment of several skin diseases especially those associated with oxidative stress.Aim of...

ejh.journals.ekb.eg

I personally am in ketosis for most of the week and I feel better doing so.

From a sports performance and bodybuilding, the low carb diets are not ideal and they tend to upregulate cortisol and downregulate serotonin/tryptophan (sleep/relaxation). A lot of people feel energized/invigorated at first form low carb/keto from the extra adrenaline/catecholamine/stress hormones, but eventually it can catch up in the form of poorer sleep, lower sex drive, etc. Some guys do feel best on low carb year round though, likely due to genetic stuff.


The ideal fuel for muscles and brain is glycogen and glucose. It's like biofuel ethanol (ketones) versus gasoline (glucose). Ketones/fats will work but you won't get the maximum performance in the brain and muscle.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

From a sports performance and bodybuilding, the low carb diets are not ideal and they tend to upregulate cortisol and downregulate serotonin/tryptophan (sleep/relaxation). A lot of people feel energized/invigorated at first form low carb/keto from the extra adrenaline/catecholamine/stress hormones, but eventually it can catch up in the form of poorer sleep, lower sex drive, etc. Some guys do feel best on low carb year round though, likely due to genetic stuff.


The ideal fuel for muscles and brain is glycogen and glucose. It's like biofuel ethanol (ketones) versus gasoline (glucose). Ketones/fats will work but you won't get the maximum performance in the brain and muscle.

Yeah, the way to make it work is to incorporate refeeds of some kind during the week.

So let's say you refeed twice a week which is my usual thing. That's enough to top me off and maybe even slightly over due to the super compensation effect. So I'm at full glycogen stores a couples times a week.

The rest of the week I'm burning off some of that glycogen via workouts. I mostly use a 4 way bodypart split and glycogen depletion is localized, it's not systemic. Which is a pretty cool feature.

That means I'm not going multiple sessions on the same bodypart with no carbs so my body always gets refueled before I hit that same bodypart. So I really don't lose anything in that area.

So if you did want to reap the benefits of ketosis, that's how you do it!

It's not for everyone but if you did want to, that's how.

 

[Black Beard]

Yeah, the way to make it work is to incorporate refeeds of some kind during the week.

So let's say you refeed twice a week which is my usual thing. That's enough to top me off and maybe even slightly over due to the super compensation effect. So I'm at full glycogen stores a couples times a week.

The rest of the week I'm burning off some of that glycogen via workouts. I mostly use a 4 way bodypart split and glycogen depletion is localized, it's not systemic. Which is a pretty cool feature.

That means I'm not going multiple sessions on the same bodypart with no carbs so my body always gets refueled before I hit that same bodypart. So I really don't lose anything in that area.

So if you did want to reap the benefits of ketosis, that's how you do it!

It's not for everyone but if you did want to, that's how.

Yep, that's the right way to do it. Carb refeeds will keep your muscle and liver glycogen stores full. That means better performance, fuller/stronger muscles, and less negative side effects from low carbs. (cravings, fatigue, metabolic slow down, libido issues, etc).

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Yep, that's the right way to do it. Carb refeeds will keep your muscle and liver glycogen stores full. That means better performance, fuller/stronger muscles, and less negative side effects from low carbs. (cravings, fatigue, metabolic slow down, libido issues, etc).

Yeah for sure, for me it feels great.

There are reasons why people might respond better to low carb vs a regular diet. I think it can be tempting to want to think there is one way which is the best! But that doesn't appear to be the case and certainly isn't with me. Lyle McDonald can explain the mechanics of it all better than I can here:

Insulin Sensitivity and Fat Loss

An examination of recent research suggesting an interaction between carbohydrate intake while dieting and insulin sensitivity on the magnitude of fat loss.

bodyrecomposition.com

But to get back on topic my answer to @Hyperemia was in the context of his question regarding wound healing and carbohydrates. Which is relevant to this.

 

[Black Beard]

Yeah for sure, for me it feels great.

There are reasons why people might respond better to low carb vs a regular diet. I think it can be tempting to want to think there is one way which is the best! But that doesn't appear to be the case and certainly isn't with me. Lyle McDonald can explain the mechanics of it all better than I can here:

Insulin Sensitivity and Fat Loss

An examination of recent research suggesting an interaction between carbohydrate intake while dieting and insulin sensitivity on the magnitude of fat loss.

bodyrecomposition.com

But to get back on topic my answer to @Hyperemia was in the context of his question regarding wound healing and carbohydrates. Which is relevant to this.

I'm a student of Lyle, been reading his stuff for over +15 years. His bodybuilding physiology/nutrition info and explanations is some of the best ever.