So much Bro-Science about HCG

[gears]

Why is there so much bro-science about HCG when legitimate scientific journal or research article after article states otherwise? Specifically, I'm talking about the general consensus that too much HCG will "burn out" the Leydig cells, when studies about male hypogonadism and infertility show the use of massive amounts over multiple months, with no negative sides...only resulting in higher sperm counts, higher test levels and getting a female pregnant. I will attach links when I get on my personal computer. I'm on a phone, currently, and attaching links is not something I want to do right now. Just do a Google search for HCG and HMG for male infertility and hypogonadism. I think we are all a little guilty of perpetuating "common knowledge" which has no true scientific foundation. I had a firm belief that using large amounts of HCG over long periods would ruin you...apparently not.

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[bloodshed]

Im interested in hearing more on this

 

[Elvia1023]

Regardless there is simply no need to use large amounts of HCG. For the purposes most bodybuilders use it on cycle 200-500IU every week is enough. If using post cycle for fertility reasons then higher or more frequent dosing can be used. But no one needs to be injecting 2000-5000IU per inj. Just adding if people mention a clinical setting well they are still giving guys fortnightly large doses of testosterone for trt. More is definitely not best when it comes to HCG.

 

[Bob Dole]

I have done just fine @ 300IU's a week.

 

[gears]

My point is that there is NO empirical evidence to support the claims that excessive amounts of HCG are harmful to the testes...NONE. Lots of dudes who parrot what they've read on message boards and in articles by "experts" who are, usually, just some guy who has just enough education to search for scientific qualifier words, and strategically place them throughout said article, making it (the "article") and them (the "researcher/author") seem legitimate. And, from what I've read, more is better. But what do these guys know, right? They're just doctors and scientists conducting experiments using the Scientific Method and shit. Bunch of homos if you ask me. REAL knowledge is obtained through reading the thoroughly trustworthy internet bro-science message board researchers' exhaustive studies on this or any subject.

I'm sure that a small amount is fine for most "bodybuilders" in order to maintain testicular size and function during cycle. This isn't the point of this thread. And the articles and abstracts I've read made no mention of exogenous testosterone supplementation during their experiments.

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[ALLEX]

I don't think I've ever heard that hcg damages leydig cells. I always heard to be careful with in teste aromatization.

 

[Massive G]

Why is there so much bro-science about HCG when legitimate scientific journal or research article after article states otherwise? Specifically, I'm talking about the general consensus that too much HCG will "burn out" the Leydig cells, when studies about male hypogonadism and infertility show the use of massive amounts over multiple months, with no negative sides...only resulting in higher sperm counts, higher test levels and getting a female pregnant. I will attach links when I get on my personal computer. I'm on a phone, currently, and attaching links is not something I want to do right now. Just do a Google search for HCG and HMG for male infertility and hypogonadism. I think we are all a little guilty of perpetuating "common knowledge" which has no true scientific foundation. I had a firm belief that using large amounts of HCG over long periods would ruin you...apparently not.

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My medically prescribed HCG by an endo was 1500 units 3 times a week.
He wanted to keep me on that forever, due to my hemo issues with standard HRT injections.

Keep in mind about studies and HCG and we who use ploypharmacy to self medicate can throw studies in the toilet for most things and bro science is just that- bro science.

I choose not to use HCG cause it has some really bad sides for me but certainly don't think it burns out leydig cells etc..

 

[p-lethal]

fertility doc has me on 3000 e3d


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[kscowboy]

My medically prescribed HCG by an endo was 1500 units 3 times a week.
He wanted to keep me on that forever, due to my hemo issues with standard HRT injections.

Keep in mind about studies and HCG and we who use ploypharmacy to self medicate can throw studies in the toilet for most things and bro science is just that- bro science.

I choose not to use HCG cause it has some really bad sides for me but certainly don't think it burns out leydig cells etc..

MG-First off glad to see you posting here again. We need more of you around.

My ENDO also has me on 1500 mg a week. And keep in mind, i am using THE top endo in Houston who is world renowned for HRT therapy.

 

[drum]

My medically prescribed HCG by an endo was 1500 units 3 times a week.
He wanted to keep me on that forever, due to my hemo issues with standard HRT injections.

Keep in mind about studies and HCG and we who use ploypharmacy to self medicate can throw studies in the toilet for most things and bro science is just that- bro science.

I choose not to use HCG cause it has some really bad sides for me but certainly don't think it burns out leydig cells etc..

What sides did you experience bro if you don't mind?

What I notice is that when I first mix my 5000ius and inject 500iu I seem to get sides... anxiety, some water weight but I'm not convinced this is from oestrogen because if I dose even a small amount of AI at this point it brings my e2 a bit too low. Maybe it is just the hCG itself. After a couple weeks I don't notice those sides, like the potency has decreased, but it still keeps my balls and load good. Strange. In 6 years of using hormones, hCG is the only thing that still mystifies me bit.

 

[kscowboy]

WOuld like to see what Stewie has to say on this as well (But make it where i can understand it)

 

[Swifto]

Rodent studies seem to show negative changes in leydig cell activity with excessive HCG usage.

 

[buck]

Low dose seem to be effective from this study.
Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[safe T steve]

I don't think I've ever heard that hcg damages leydig cells. I always heard to be careful with in teste aromatization.

i have heard of leydig cell damage but my doc said same thing, that there is nothing that shows hcg can create desensitization.

i did read something back awhile, i will try to find it, but it did say that teste aromatization was something to look at because the hcg causes aromatization in the testes itself which is hard to control with a SERM. I believe aromasin was the possible thing to take to control elevated estro levels from hcg.

Multiple injections per week are recommended because the half-life of hcgis only about 36 hours. Less frequent injections result in poor maintenance of blood levels.

 

[Stewie]

WOuld like to see what Stewie has to say on this as well (But make it where i can understand it)

Hi ks.

The saga continues on the quest for absolute answers. Sadly, I can only speculate. Even then, nothing factual.

Rodent studies seem to show negative changes in leydig cell activity with excessive HCG usage.

Hi Swifto.
Glad to see you posting again. Always have enjoyed your post.

In my opinion animal models can be beneficial for some research; at the same time there's been observations that didn't quantify the same results in humans.

My forgoing questions on this particular topic with rodent models. Is there morphological difference between Leydig cells and Sertoli cells in humans, and are they identical to rodents? And do exogenous sex hormones interplay in the same manner? That, I do not know.

I could stroll in the University of Illinois Vet lab and ask one of the professors... Even then, it may only be hypothesized?

Science is unique, but it is not absolute.

 

[Bob Dole]

Even if more hcg is not harmful, I still see no need to over dose it. I have seen several threads where TRT clinics seem to have clients on a much higher dosage than most broscience typically suggests. I have tried to always start at a lower dosage and if needed adjust up.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Taurine = always used with HCG

Taurine protects steroids users' testes

**broken link removed**

 

[Swifto]

Hi ks.

The saga continues on the quest for absolute answers. Sadly, I can only speculate. Even then, nothing factual.



Hi Swifto.
Glad to see you posting again. Always have enjoyed your post.

In my opinion animal models can be beneficial for some research; at the same time there's been observations that didn't quantify the same results in humans.

My forgoing questions on this particular topic with rodent models. Is there morphological difference between Leydig cells and Sertoli cells in humans, and are they identical to rodents? And do exogenous sex hormones interplay in the same manner? That, I do not know.

I could stroll in the University of Illinois Vet lab and ask one of the professors... Even then, it may only be hypothesized?

Science is unique, but it is not absolute.

Thanks, you too.

I agree, animal models have their values.

I'd still suggest avoidance when it comes to large doses of HCG, due to increases in testicular estrogen.

I'm not entirely sure of the dose response when it comes to large HCG doses in raising exogenous T, but a lot of the studies are done on hypogondal males, not males using anabolic steroids.

I'm not sure what we're discussing here either. HCG usage when using anabolic steroids, or using HCG after cessation of anabolic steroids and during PCT.

Even so, I don't see why you'd warrant going over 2,500ius in a single injection and too frequently.

 

[Swifto]

Taurine = always used with HCG

Taurine protects steroids users' testes

**broken link removed**

Vitamin E and C also seem to show signs of protecting the testes.

 

[homonunculus]

Why is there so much bro-science about HCG when legitimate scientific journal or research article after article states otherwise? Specifically, I'm talking about the general consensus that too much HCG will "burn out" the Leydig cells, when studies about male hypogonadism and infertility show the use of massive amounts over multiple months, with no negative sides...only resulting in higher sperm counts, higher test levels and getting a female pregnant. I will attach links when I get on my personal computer. I'm on a phone, currently, and attaching links is not something I want to do right now. Just do a Google search for HCG and HMG for male infertility and hypogonadism. I think we are all a little guilty of perpetuating "common knowledge" which has no true scientific foundation. I had a firm belief that using large amounts of HCG over long periods would ruin you...apparently not.

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Have you had a chance to find those links?

To my knowledge, much of this dosing protocol comes from the clinical experience of Dr. John Crisler, who used to post here as SWALE. Crisler has a forum you can search out on his site (see below).

What he has found in that lower amounts of HCG (<500IU) raise his patients testosterone to the desired (eugonadal) range and testicular volume increases. He notes other clinicians have found this to be the case:

Are ultra high doses of hgh really bad - fallacy of hCG desensitization | All Things Male Forum

The study buck posted supports using ~500IU or less.


If you look at this study:

Liu, P. Y., Wishart, S. M., & Handelsman, D. J. (2002). A double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial of recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin on muscle strength and physical function and activity in older men with partial age-related androgen deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 87(7), 3125-3135. doi: 10.1210/jcem.87.7.8630

You can get it here: **broken link removed**


..You'll see that after HCG at 5000IU (2x / week) DECREASED testis volume significantly and this did NOT recover a month after discontinuing the HCG, even though the depression of LH and FSH had recovered at that time. Of course, that doesn't tell us that the testes were refractory to LH, FSH a/o HCG stimulation at that point ("burnt out"), but what we do see is:

-A reduction in testis size (not an increase) with these doses.

-A reduction that persists even when HCG is discontinued and the stimulatory effects of LH and FSH are back in place.

- ALSO, 1 month after discontinuing the HCG, testosterone levels were back to the (low) baseline.

-AND - I'm just eyeballing here (they don't do a good job with stats in this paper, IMO - It looks as it Testosterone level rise up to a peak at the 1mo. period and then are declining over the next two month... (I wonder if they bottomed out to a lower level than baseline a few months after the study's last measurements.

Anyway, again, not direct evidence of burnout, but it's interesting to me also that the authors of that study don't note that the testis volume did not recover. (I wonder if the subjects did! )

-S