Hydrolyzed Whey vs Isolate?

[Landmonster]

Hi guys.

Simple question here.

I have been using hydrolyzed proteins for about the last 3 years, assuming they were better. I have used hydro casein, hydro whey, and a mix of the two.

I hadn't really questioned it until recently, when bodybuilders were saying that Peptopro had no real additional value. Since Peptopro is the "best of best" of hydrolyzed proteins, does that mean that hydrolyzed has no benefit?


Is it worth paying the money for these, over regular whey isolates?

 

[OutToLunch]

For my pre and pwo protein I get a blend of wpi and wph.

 

[Landmonster]

I need to make a large order, so knowledgeable or science-based input is appreciated.

 

[Mike Arnold]

It's great for two things:

1.) Anytime you require a rapid influx of aminos.

2.) As part of an intra-shake, due to its rapidly digesting nature and water-like consistency.


At other times just eat whole food or normal (although still high quality) protein powders. Drinking hydrolyzed proteins all the time would actually be disadvantageous, as you also need slower digesting proteins and a wider variety of nutrients (which can only be obtained by eating a variety of protein sources) to maximize muscle growth. Research has shown on numerous occasions that eating more than one protein source leads to improved muscle growth. One example would be all the whey vs. whey and casein studies done back in the 90's and early 2000's.

Tons of studies compared the muscle building effects of whey vs. casein and whey combined. The casein and whey combined group always came out on top. This is just one example, but it does show that consuming just a single protein source, particularly a very quickly digesting one, is not ideal when attempting to maximize growth.

Now, one thing I do recommend is adding leucine to whole food meals or slower digesting protein shakes (and even fast-digesting protein sources when needed), as this will lead to a larger spike in protein synthesis compared to protein alone.

 

[Landmonster]

Mike,

I do consume a Micellar Casein + Whey Isolate shake now (50/50 mix) as a general meal replacement shake.

I believe that a mix of casein and whey is superior for meals. I used to add in Egg protein as well (33/33/33), except now egg prices have skyrocketed.

My question pertains mostly to intra-workout, or post-workout. Is hydrolyzed whey superior to whey isolate in these times? Should we be using a blend?

For several years, I was doing an 80/20 mix of 80% hydrolyzed whey with 20% hydrolyzed casein, since hydrolyzed casein was very expensive. (Peptopro is 100% hydrolyzed casein)


However, recently Dante himself said that Peptopro had no measurable benefits (for him personally), and thus he did not feel it was worth the money.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike,

I do consume a Micellar Casein + Whey Isolate shake now (50/50 mix) as a general meal replacement shake.

I believe that a mix of casein and whey is superior for meals. I used to add in Egg protein as well (33/33/33), except now egg prices have skyrocketed.

My question pertains mostly to intra-workout, or post-workout. Is hydrolyzed whey superior to whey isolate in these times?

At those I do believe it is, BUT...you need to ask yourself if the additional benefits it provides (easier and more rapid digestibility) are worth the much higher cost? The answer to this question will largely depend on your income. For someone struggling to buy regular food, the answer is absolutely not, but if you've got plenty of extra money to invest perfecting the details, go right ahead.

 

[Landmonster]

At those I do believe it is, BUT...you need to ask yourself if the additional benefits it provides (easier and more rapid digestibility) are worth the much higher cost? The answer to this question will largely depend on your income. For someone struggling to buy regular food, the answer is absolutely not, but if you've got plenty of extra money to invest perfecting the details, go right ahead.

I guess my question is then, regardless of price, are the hydrolyzed proteins superior around a workout? If so, would we want a straight shot of hydrolyzed whey giving us the most rapid digestion, or would we be better off with a mix of protein types?


Let's be specific here: Hydrolyzed whey is between $11-$14/pound. Whey Isolate is between $10-11/pound. Peptopro is $30/pound.

Like I said, I used to "cover my bases" by running a mix of 80% hydrolyzed whey + 20% hydrolyzed casein to take in 2 types of hydrolyzed protein at once. Sadly, TrueNutrition stopped carrying regular hydrolyzed casein.... so the only option is PeptoPro.

I had always assumed that Peptopro was the "best of the best", since it is touted as a special type of hydrolyzed protein, even though I have never tried it. The cost of $30/lb is prohibitive for me and most people. That works out to $4 per shake, of 48g of protein each...

This was my belief until recently, when I read that Dante said he has experimented with Peptopro on himself and not observed any noticable differences, and therefore, could not recommend it in good conscience.

(I don't know if this is true across a wide population of bodybuilders, or just his own anecdotal observation.)

 

[Swifto]

It's great for two things:

1.) Anytime you require a rapid influx of aminos.

2.) As part of an intra-shake, due to its rapidly digesting nature and water-like consistency.


At other times just eat whole food or normal (although still high quality) protein powders. Drinking hydrolyzed proteins all the time would actually be disadvantageous, as you also need slower digesting proteins and a wider variety of nutrients (which can only be obtained by eating a variety of protein sources) to maximize muscle growth. Research has shown on numerous occasions that eating more than one protein source leads to improved muscle growth. One example would be all the whey vs. whey and casein studies done back in the 90's and early 2000's.

Tons of studies compared the muscle building effects of whey vs. casein and whey combined. The casein and whey combined group always came out on top. This is just one example, but it does show that consuming just a single protein source, particularly a very quickly digesting one, is not ideal when attempting to maximize growth.

Now, one thing I do recommend is adding leucine to whole food meals or slower digesting protein shakes (and even fast-digesting protein sources when needed), as this will lead to a larger spike in protein synthesis compared to protein alone.

I assume you mean to slow protein breakdown (with slow digesting protein sources)? This is often why a combination of protein sources is better than 1 alone, such as Whey.

Protein synthesis is one equation of the muscle growth puzzle, the other important factor is protein breakdown.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I assume you mean to slow protein breakdown (with slow digesting protein sources)? This is often why a combination of protein sources is better than 1 alone, such as Whey.

Protein synthesis is one equation of the muscle growth puzzle, the other important factor is protein breakdown.

Yep

 

[Mike Arnold]

I guess my question is then, regardless of price, are the hydrolyzed proteins superior around a workout? If so, would we want a straight shot of hydrolyzed whey giving us the most rapid digestion, or would we be better off with a mix of protein types?


Let's be specific here: Hydrolyzed whey is between $11-$14/pound. Whey Isolate is between $10-11/pound. Peptopro is $30/pound.

Like I said, I used to "cover my bases" by running a mix of 80% hydrolyzed whey + 20% hydrolyzed casein to take in 2 types of hydrolyzed protein at once. Sadly, TrueNutrition stopped carrying regular hydrolyzed casein.... so the only option is PeptoPro.

I had always assumed that Peptopro was the "best of the best", since it is touted as a special type of hydrolyzed protein, even though I have never tried it. The cost of $30/lb is prohibitive for me and most people. That works out to $4 per shake, of 48g of protein each...

This was my belief until recently, when I read that Dante said he has experimented with Peptopro on himself and not observed any noticable differences, and therefore, could not recommend it in good conscience.

(I don't know if this is true across a wide population of bodybuilders, or just his own anecdotal observation.)

I wouldn't spend $30 on it, if that tells you anything...nor do I ever recommend it to clients. Now, I have often recommended hydrolyzed proteins around training...but not Peptopro because it just costs too much money. I can't justify the cost in light of the results, especially when normal hydrolyzed proteins appear to provide equal results.

Most of the time I have guys use a combination of instantized EAA's and leucine, but at times I will recommend hydrolyzed whey plus leucine. I think a combo of hydrolyzed whey and hydrolyzed casein is superior to hydrolyzed whey alone, but all hydrolyzed casein proteins seem to cost an arm and a leg, so I stay away from it for the most part. EAA's and leucine is my usual go-to combo.

 

[p-lethal]

im sure it may be overpriced but i LOVE Ultimate muscle provider as my meal replacement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kingpeon]

It's great for two things:

1.) Anytime you require a rapid influx of aminos.

2.) As part of an intra-shake, due to its rapidly digesting nature and water-like consistency.


At other times just eat whole food or normal (although still high quality) protein powders. Drinking hydrolyzed proteins all the time would actually be disadvantageous, as you also need slower digesting proteins and a wider variety of nutrients (which can only be obtained by eating a variety of protein sources) to maximize muscle growth. Research has shown on numerous occasions that eating more than one protein source leads to improved muscle growth. One example would be all the whey vs. whey and casein studies done back in the 90's and early 2000's.

Tons of studies compared the muscle building effects of whey vs. casein and whey combined. The casein and whey combined group always came out on top. This is just one example, but it does show that consuming just a single protein source, particularly a very quickly digesting one, is not ideal when attempting to maximize growth.

Now, one thing I do recommend is adding leucine to whole food meals or slower digesting protein shakes (and even fast-digesting protein sources when needed), as this will lead to a larger spike in protein synthesis compared to protein alone.

How many grams of leucine you recommend per meal or day?

 

[kingpeon]

I guess my question is then, regardless of price, are the hydrolyzed proteins superior around a workout? If so, would we want a straight shot of hydrolyzed whey giving us the most rapid digestion, or would we be better off with a mix of protein types?


Let's be specific here: Hydrolyzed whey is between $11-$14/pound. Whey Isolate is between $10-11/pound. Peptopro is $30/pound.

Like I said, I used to "cover my bases" by running a mix of 80% hydrolyzed whey + 20% hydrolyzed casein to take in 2 types of hydrolyzed protein at once. Sadly, TrueNutrition stopped carrying regular hydrolyzed casein.... so the only option is PeptoPro.

I had always assumed that Peptopro was the "best of the best", since it is touted as a special type of hydrolyzed protein, even though I have never tried it. The cost of $30/lb is prohibitive for me and most people. That works out to $4 per shake, of 48g of protein each...

This was my belief until recently, when I read that Dante said he has experimented with Peptopro on himself and not observed any noticable differences, and therefore, could not recommend it in good conscience.

(I don't know if this is true across a wide population of bodybuilders, or just his own anecdotal observation.)

I guess my question is then, regardless of price, are the hydrolyzed proteins superior around a workout? Yes, they are... simply because they get to the muscles faster when they're needed most. Although I think the difference is minimal but regardless some of us are greedy for gains so every little bit helps.

I'd forget the powders if I were you. They're not hydrolyzed enough compared to a good amino tab to be economical. Ten Beverly Mass Aminos before training along with a few lactic acid buffers (to make it easier for the aminos to enter the muscle cell) and 15 tabs afterward will do more good than several scoops of hydro whey, IME.

 

[OutToLunch]

I'd forget the powders if I were you. They're not hydrolyzed enough compared to a good amino tab to be economical. Ten Beverly Mass Aminos before training along with a few lactic acid buffers (to make it easier for the aminos to enter the muscle cell) and 15 tabs afterward will do more good than several scoops of hydro whey, IME.

I find that hard to believe. Doesn't some economical or optimal/efficient.

 

[kingpeon]

I find that hard to believe. Doesn't some economical or optimal/efficient.

Beverly's, for example, are hydrolyzed to 50%. Every hydro whey I've inquired on has been hydro'd to 25% tops. Dr. Mauro's Amoni v.4 is hydro'd to the optimal 75%. This level of quality is equal to 10-15 grams of dietary whole food protein.

The reason amino tabs are tabulated, if they are indeed high quality, is because you couldn't flavor them enough to mask the bitterness the hydro produces.

Powder hydro can't go higher than around 25% unless it's debitterized or they would only be selling to the very hardcore among us.

 

[OutToLunch]

I get the debitterized from TN.

 

[Crux]

I noticed that John Meadows had changed from using Peptopro in his intra shake to just EAA's.

Is there any real benefit of any proteins over EEA's???

 

[TheOtherOne55]

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it makes a difference. If 1 person only drank hydrolyzed protein vs 1 person drinking whey concentrate....they'd probably be identical.

Even with that:

Intra - EAA's
PWO - Whey mix (whatever's on sale mostly)
At work/meals - TrueNutrition mix of whey/casein/egg or just whey/casein

 

[Landmonster]

I wouldn't spend $30 on it, if that tells you anything...nor do I ever recommend it to clients. Now, I have often recommended hydrolyzed proteins around training...but not Peptopro because it just costs too much money. I can't justify the cost in light of the results, especially when normal hydrolyzed proteins appear to provide equal results.

Most of the time I have guys use a combination of instantized EAA's and leucine, but at times I will recommend hydrolyzed whey plus leucine. I think a combo of hydrolyzed whey and hydrolyzed casein is superior to hydrolyzed whey alone, but all hydrolyzed casein proteins seem to cost an arm and a leg, so I stay away from it for the most part. EAA's and leucine is my usual go-to combo.

How many EAAs per workout do you normally advise? Does it vary based on size of the lifter?

 

[Mike Arnold]

How many EAAs per workout do you normally advise? Does it vary based on size of the lifter?

Yeah, it varies, but normally somewhere between 10-20 grams, along with 5 grams of leucine.