Natural or not...

[CogSci]

Hello guys,

I've visited this forum for a few years now and decided to finally post, in light of recent musing. I'm a 33 year old natural bodybuilder. I reached my apex in my mid twenties and have always maintained within five pounds of a fairly lean 185 (pic attached from a few years back). Strength, libido, and recovery, however, have taken a large hit the past several years. Blood work has fluctuated drastically, with testosterone as high as 800 ng/dl but as low as 200 ng/dl, most recently 350 ng/dl. I've also acclimated to such high volumes of hard training that frequent injuries and joint problems have arisen.

I've experimented with various strategies to mitigate these issues, but nothing reliably works. I'm therefore contemplating pushing the reset button -- taking a few weeks off to strategically decondition and let my joints heal -- and then commencing with 250-300 mg of testosterone as a first cycle (I would alternate this with periods of TRT-style usage and never go off completely). I have good self-control and intend on never going above 500-600 mg or running excessively harsh compounds. Gains in LBM would of course be nice, but they would be secondary to a more stable libido, drive, and recovery capacity. Low dosage AAS would allow an anabolic response from more moderate training volumes, thereby putting my joints under less total stress even though strength would climb.

Concerns are present, however. After reading several forum threads, I worry that effects on libido and mood -- even on a single compound -- may be harder to get dialed in than expected, or even be more acute in nature. I'm also apprehensive about facial appearance. I've been told that I look very young for 33 and have spoken with several guys who say they looked years older from even simple, low dose cycles. Obviously, most of this will depend on idiosyncratic, genetic variables, but I'm still curious to hear feedback from members who had been in comparable situations and went the simple cycle route. Was it worth it? Any feedback is appreciated and also just wanted to say thanks to all the admins/moderators behind this great forum.

 

[Reload]

You sound wise beyond your years based on what you've written. Especially you proactive approach to injuries. I'd say your on the right track. You might want to consider reading over Emerics 10/mg day thread.
Whats taken me many years to learn is no one really gives a shit how strong you are, how many plates you load on a bar or sled. Your shoulders, knees and back deserve respect. Disrespect them or take them for granted and as you start getting into your 40's-50's...shit tears! Trust me, I'm there right now

Your 33 with a solid natural base. If your not hypogonadal you might want to consider pushing off TRT for another 3-5 years before taking the plunge. Once you go on it's more or less for life.

 

[johnjuanb1]

You look incredible for being natural. I’d say if it’s a looks concern you don’t need roids. If your body is falling apart then a little test and deca would do wonders. AAS are a trip in that The face does age if you’re young but it looks younger if you’re old. Most guys on roids have a generic 40 year old face hahaha

 

[Slowmoe]

Stay off the sauce. Try torem @ 30mg EOD to boost natural T levels. You look good like you are. At most add proviron or Cialis to boost sex drive if needed.

 

[johnjuanb1]

Stay off the sauce. Try torem @ 30mg EOD to boost natural T levels. You look good like you are. At most add proviron or Cialis to boost sex drive if needed.

At age 33, I tend to agree. Once you cross the line it’s very hard to stop. TRT really should be saved until you hit your mid- life crisis at 40.

 

[jeroendebleser]

You look amazing for being natural. So much so that I'd say no, don't go on roids.

 

[alfresco]

well . .

First off, I think you look really good.

Secondly, since you are looking for advice, I would take a few
months off, perhaps tighten up your diet a bit, and let your injuries
heal and enjoy life. (It may take more than a couple of months
to fully heal.)

When you start back in, I would do a full body routine Monday,
Wednesday, and Friday. Basic exercises (do not bench press ever),
a few sets to complete failure. Do that for 3 – 6 months and
evaluate things from there. Keep your diet in check and you may
be pleasantly surprised.

Be very careful here, be wise and think it through . . . as far as
steroids are concerned (I am on TRT, 40mg testosterone every
four days and 64 year old. My avatar is accurate.) I would do 10mg
a day, splitting up your shots from daily to every four days, no longer.

Get a compete blood work-up now and right before you start training
and then after you have been training and on TRT (if you chose) for
6 months.

Then, and only then, make changes to your training, and TRT.
As you know, your diet is mostly responsible for how you look
so don’t get carried away. It is better and healthier to be leaner
than not.

I am at a loss to know why your testosterone levels are all over
the map, hence my frequent blood test recommendations.

And like others have said, and this can't be stressed enough, once
on true TRT, it will be for life. So please look before you leap.

Keep things simple. Do not over complicate things . . . training
and AAS / TRT. It is all not that complicated. You look great. Don’t
ruin it.

Be well,
alfresco

 

[johnjuanb1]

First off, I think you look really good.

Secondly, since you are looking for advice, I would take a few
months off, perhaps tighten up your diet a bit, and let your injuries
heal and enjoy life. (It may take more than a couple of months
to fully heal.)

When you start back in, I would do a full body routine Monday,
Wednesday, and Friday. Basic exercises (do not bench press ever),
a few sets to complete failure. Do that for 3 – 6 months and
evaluate things from there. Keep your diet in check and you may
be pleasantly surprised.

Be very careful here, be wise and think it through . . . as far as
steroids are concerned (I am on TRT, 40mg testosterone every
four days and 64 year old. My avatar is accurate.) I would do 10mg
a day, splitting up your shots from daily to every four days, no longer.

Get a compete blood work-up now and right before you start training
and then after you have been training and on TRT (if you chose) for
6 months.

Then, and only then, make changes to your training, and TRT.
As you know, your diet is mostly responsible for how you look
so don’t get carried away. It is better and healthier to be leaner
than not.

I am at a loss to know why your testosterone levels are all over
the map, hence my frequent blood test recommendations.

And like others have said, and this can't be stressed enough, once
on true TRT, it will be for life. So please look before you leap.

Keep things simple. Do not over complicate things . . . training
and AAS / TRT. It is all not that complicated. You look great. Don’t
ruin it.

Be well,
alfresco

Wow! If thats how you look now at age 64 on only 10mg/day then that’s very impressive!!! Good job!

 

[Fa Seeshus]

One option could be to avoid messing with your natural test and just do a low dose course of GH. This would help with the joints and injuries and let you intake more calories for growth while staying lean.

A bud of mine did that at your age and he maintained the gains when he stopped. It isn't going to be any sort of dramatic change, but it will be a difference.

 

[Bmac101]

You mention frequent injuries, have you tried any self-myofascial release or gone to a good deep tissue specialist (ART or similar)?

It's amazing how much is soft tissue related, I had really bad elbow pain, it was actually being caused by the bicep and forearm being excessively tight. I had a bunch of nagging joint issue and they were all soft tissue related.

Lots you can read online, but the best thing is finding a good practitioner of ART or similar.

 

[jeroendebleser]

One option could be to avoid messing with your natural test and just do a low dose course of GH. This would help with the joints and injuries and let you intake more calories for growth while staying lean.

A bud of mine did that at your age and he maintained the gains when he stopped. It isn't going to be any sort of dramatic change, but it will be a difference.

That may be an idea yes. Although it would lead him to the self-injection route and connections with AAS-suppliers and that could lead to AAS use sooner or later.

Maybe some MK-677?

Honestly OP: you've built yourself a body that many AAS-users are still dreaming of and you did it all without assistance. Why take the plunge? As been said before, once you dabble in, it becomes a never ending rollercoaster-ride and for all you know you could be one of the people that responds poorly to AAS as well. Then you'll end up looking hardly any better (in fact you may look worse due to water retention) and would be using illegal and health damaging substances. If I had your natural genetics, I would have never taken the plunge.

 

[jeroendebleser]

You mention frequent injuries, have you tried any self-myofascial release or gone to a good deep tissue specialist (ART or similar)?

It's amazing how much is soft tissue related, I had really bad elbow pain, it was actually being caused by the bicep and forearm being excessively tight. I had a bunch of nagging joint issue and they were all soft tissue related.

Lots you can read online, but the best thing is finding a good practitioner of ART or similar.

I really wished we had the performance enhancement culture you Americans have over here in Europe. You guys have access to so many helpful therapies over there. Almost everything here is standard physiotherapy and the problem you described would likely just be 'resolved' with a cortisone-injection or two. (which is never going to really adress the issue) Of course ART exists around here too but there's so little practitioners and access to them is mostly for celebrity pro athletes

Don't even get me started on the insanely equipped gyms I constantly see vs our 'gyms' in which you are lucky to find a squat rack or other basic pieces of equiment. Of course they all have one (or more) flat benches LOL

BB'ing is definitely easier in the States.

 

[pickapeck]

Lots of good advice in here. You have good genetics. Users in here are being strait-up with you. A lot of us think it might be better to stay away from the dollar-coaster we got on. AAS/PEDs have a way of sucking you in once you are in it escalates and the off periods turn into a waiting game to see how long you can stay off/on TRT. Diet and overtraining can put your natural testosterone in these fluctuations. If you are testing at 800 ng/dL at times then it may be that your HPTA is great and fluctuations are normal for what you are doing.

I think the re-set you speak of is a wise idea. Let the joints heal up and start back slowly. Once you get on AAS the joint issues may actually get worse. They will over time. As far as Testosterone fluctuations, runners, endurance athletes, have lower testosterone and that is normal. The body does that to become more efficient for those activities. So evaluate in terms of your activities. Diet is a big thing as well. So much sh*t in the food we eat that can tank hormones. Staying close as possible to natural/close to the earth can help a lot.

 

[brutus69]

if i looked like u at that age natural id'a never touched gear at all.
but i did when i turned 40, and if i showed pics of my face before and after 1.5 years on. you'd be surprised how old i look. i was getting carded when i was 30.
i looked 10 years younger in my 30's, now i look 10 years older than i am.
wasnt worth it at all. its in the top 3 biggest mistakes i made in lie.

 

[buck]

If your T levels are fluctuating that much you may want to find out what is causing that and that could solve most of you issues.

 

[Bmac101]

I really wished we had the performance enhancement culture you Americans have over here in Europe. You guys have access to so many helpful therapies over there. Almost everything here is standard physiotherapy and the problem you described would likely just be 'resolved' with a cortisone-injection or two. (which is never going to really adress the issue) Of course ART exists around here too but there's so little practitioners and access to them is mostly for celebrity pro athletes

Don't even get me started on the insanely equipped gyms I constantly see vs our 'gyms' in which you are lucky to find a squat rack or other basic pieces of equiment. Of course they all have one (or more) flat benches LOL

BB'ing is definitely easier in the States.

I'm in the UK, London, so maybe far easier for me compared to someone "up north" for example. ART is expensive, but Self-myofascial release is not. I would personally see a proper practitioner (they will find all the problems), let them fix the hard work. Then do you own Self-myofascial release to keep things moving.

Self-myofascial release can be done on the tightest of budget, just requires some learning, consistency and time on your part.

 

[FrancisK]

Don’t use gear you’re not competing for anything, don’t use test unless you have a problem getting your dick hard. Use GH, it won’t shut down your natural anything and it will help with the injuries along with many other things with no real side effects as long as you’re not using dumb doses.

I wish someone had told me this before I ever used any gear.

 

[johnjuanb1]

That may be an idea yes. Although it would lead him to the self-injection route and connections with AAS-suppliers and that could lead to AAS use sooner or later.

Maybe some MK-677?

Honestly OP: you've built yourself a body that many AAS-users are still dreaming of and you did it all without assistance. Why take the plunge? As been said before, once you dabble in, it becomes a never ending rollercoaster-ride and for all you know you could be one of the people that responds poorly to AAS as well. Then you'll end up looking hardly any better (in fact you may look worse due to water retention) and would be using illegal and health damaging substances. If I had your natural genetics, I would have never taken the plunge.

I totally agree on the MK-677. I’ve been off roids since June and MK-677 does wonders for joint support, strength, healing, etc. Mk-677 is my favorite non-AAS supplement. I like it much better than HGH. HGH burns fat better, but MK-677 does a lot more for building muscle in my opinion.

 

[jstrong20]

Another vote for mk. Stuff works great. Nothing wrong with using gear but make sure you really are sure. I had a good build before any gear and people accused me of using before I touched anything. I I'll go one or two years and use nothin and never more then two cycles a year. What bothers me is ill never know how big I could of gotten withou any assistance.

 

[CogSci]

Thanks guys for the responses. My reply to just a few of the responses yesterday:

Reload: I agree regarding the heavy lifting. About two years ago I started training mostly with high reps (still to failure) and incorporating more machine based movements. It initially helped dramatically with my joint pain. People are far too dogmatic about exercise selection and rep ranges, piddling over minutie while missing the macroscopic picture. I suspect my joint issues now however are probably a function of high total workloads coupled with suboptimal hormones, estrogen in particular (which was around 10 pg/ml on last lab).

Fa Seeshus/SlowMoe: Interesting.

Jeroendebleser: Agreed. Poor individual response to AAS is very concerning, but at least even with TRT levels there would be less fluctuation in blood levels than has historically been the case with me.

JohnJuan: Hahah,"40"+"generic face"--quite the ringing endorsement. In all seriousness, most of my motivation to "go on" is to enhance recovery and increase libido. I undertake a single hard session now and feel absolutely battered for days. Every month brings with it a new injury, most recently my meniscus. A lot of my vibrancy, zest for training, and sex drive is intermittent at best. I'd never do AAS for aesthetic reasons alone, but for quality of life -- absolutely. I realized at a young age that evolution wired us to be perpetually restless with external circumstances; and this is the reason improved looks, money, and status seldom bring fulfillment. You improve along some dimension and then this improvement becomes the new normal, with once unperceived flaws now brought to the forefront and discontent again arising.

Alfresco: You look great, tout court. I think your proposal is interesting, although I'm not so sure I could go on an extended layoff for months. That is what I meant by "strategic decondition" above.
It's interesting that you mention FB training, as I've always found higher volume training sessions (usually a 2 or 3 way split) with a rest day between them as most productive. Systemic recovery is underemphasized, that's for sure.

I suspect that some of my differing lab results are due to differences in sleep, calorie intake, and total cardio done per week at the time. But therein lies the problem. I strongly believe in frequent cardio and year round leanness for disease prevention. Especially given certain familial traits (I'm scrupulously keeping an eye on my A1C). I might be able to normalize test production by reducing training volume/cardio and gaining some fat -- but at what cost to my long-term health? My thought was that low dose AAS would allow me to continue acting in ways that buffer my longevity while simultaneously increasing my quality of life in the present. Especially given that I use no drugs and have otherwise good labs.

Anyway, this has been an enjoyable discussion so far and I thank everyone for their input. I've never been impulsive, so my next plan of action will be to get comprehensive labs done once more in the next few weeks and take it from there.