IGF 78 on 5.4iu genotropin... seems I got scammed.

[275bills]

Let's see some pics of the kits

 

[bbxtreme]

So I just read your log and see you’re working with Chris at Granite. I doubt he has bad intent.

BUT I also see that he has you doing Tren Ace. There’s some good threads on here around tren and IGF levels in the blood. I would start there before jumping to scorched earth. Lol

 

[cage99]

Send your sample or samples here and get your peace of mind back….

Janoshik Analytical

Cage

 

[RandomMachine]

No thoughts on your exact situation I will just state in a general sense that is very possible. It's the liver that converts to IGF-1 so a low IGF-1 score doesn't mean your HGH is definitely fake. A number of factors/issues can result in a low IGF-1 score. I have seen guys with 100 IGF-1 on large doses of legit hgh (pharma or generic). Then comes the serum and that is more of an indication in many ways but that can also be misleading especially when there is no prior bloodwork to reference.

If someone saw 15 they may think underdosed or fake etc but you scored similarly on the blacks. If you had 5 past serums on different brands all in the 30-40's then that (both numbers) would be conclusive (numbers don't lie). However sometimes numbers can be misinterpreted. So there is a chance your hgh is real so don't think you have 100% been scammed. I would guess (most are) it's fake but there is still a chance you haven't been ripped off. I would recommend sending a vial off to be lab tested.

This is a good post and exactly what you should do.

You mentioned dieting and as @bbxtreme Tren can lower your Igf reading. @Type-IIx has a post out there explaining the mechanism.

Here is post by @luki7788 on the topic. Check it out.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...renbolone-and-igf1-levels-blood-tests.166733/

 

[g.r.o.w.t.h.]

I also think people are jumping on the IGF-1 and thinking he has 100% been scammed and that is not the case. It's not so black and white. If his serum was 3 and the igf-1 the same then 100% he has been scammed. His HGH serum is similar to what it was on blacks with a similar dosing plan. We don't even know if he was counting the blacks as 10iu or 15iu because the are consistently overdosed. The point is a 15 serum is not fake hgh. Yes GHRP-6/2 can score that but it's rare. Pharm HGH could also score a 15 on a hgh serum too. I have seen guys using legit hgh (pharm and generic) score 15 many times when using 10iu 3 hours before testing. Most of them tend to score similarly on multiple brands (low responders) whereas others can score 5x higher on the same brand/dose.

As it stands he has 2 HGH tests and both are around 15 on the gh serum. It's the IGF-1 score that is much lower and whilst that number is an indication of hgh quality it's not concrete evidence it is fake. Again I actually think it's probably "fake pharm hgh" but that's besides the point. We can't use those lab results as definite proof his coach and/or his supplier has scammed him. Too many jump on a low score and they want blood. I would get a vial lab tested and that would tell him many things.

All good points. Fair post.

 

[fredmac82]

I have been dieting hard and introduced pharma GH from the beginning. I worked up to 5.4iu/day split and just didn't get the magical response (or any noticeable response) so I even upped it to 7iu/day for a few weeks.

No super full feeling, no big weight drops/shredding, pumps unchanged... decreased but I thought that was just low carbs... and no negative sides like increased heart rate, CTS or increased BP that I had in the past on generic. I just couldn't shake the suspicion so I had labs drawn...

10iu IM 46min before draw (they got me back way faster than I planned). Also on 5.4iu genotropin for 3-4 months now aside from about a month at 7iu

Results
GH serum- 15.5 < 7.1)
IGF- 78 (52-328)

Seems like it's faked w a ghrp maybe bc I'm getting some bump post inject

Here's the thing... contrast this to 4iu/ day TP black. Same protocol for testing...

Results
GH serum- 16.8
IGF- 411

So I scored higher on serum and WAY higher IGF on 1.4iu LESS from TP than "pharma".

If this is accurate I'm furious in part because the source and using pharma exclusively was pushed and provided by my coach.

Thoughts

??

I have been dieting hard and introduced pharma GH from the beginning. I worked up to 5.4iu/day split and just didn't get the magical response (or any noticeable response) so I even upped it to 7iu/day for a few weeks.

No super full feeling, no big weight drops/shredding, pumps unchanged... decreased but I thought that was just low carbs... and no negative sides like increased heart rate, CTS or increased BP that I had in the past on generic. I just couldn't shake the suspicion so I had labs drawn...

10iu IM 46min before draw (they got me back way faster than I planned). Also on 5.4iu genotropin for 3-4 months now aside from about a month at 7iu

Results
GH serum- 15.5 < 7.1)
IGF- 78 (52-328)

Seems like it's faked w a ghrp maybe bc I'm getting some bump post inject

Here's the thing... contrast this to 4iu/ day TP black. Same protocol for testing...

Results
GH serum- 16.8
IGF- 411

So I scored higher on serum and WAY higher IGF on 1.4iu LESS from TP than "pharma".

If this is accurate I'm furious in part because the source and using pharma exclusively was pushed and provided by my coach.

Thoughts??

Stick with TP for your GH needs. TP is universally considered GTG on this board and his GH has been test throughly by many. No need to go with "pharma" anymore these days. Not worth the risk of getting something fake or the addtional cost.

 

[aHarness]

Name supplier and the coach

Well just by looking at his log (started last Tuesday so safe to assume still true) he is coached by Cris Edmonds. As for the supplier, who knows.

 

[luki7788]

You shouldn't trust the coach and unless he's peaked you incredibly well before you shouldn't continue with him.

Regarding your labs, Jay-Z famously said, 'Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.' The only reason you'd have an IGF reading so low other than fake GH is if you had some serious liver issue which you'd likely have symptoms of.

When guys like Jay Cutler push pharma GH realize that when they were competing that's all there was for quality products. Nowadays it's not like that. Jonathan Withers has said he only uses generic GH, Justin Compton has said he only used generic GH when he was competing, and I'm sure many other modern pro bodybuilders are the same. While I'm nowhere near that level all the regular members here have seen how far I've taken my physique and I've done it only using generic GH.

Pushing pharma AAS or GH should be a big red flag with any coach. There's a coach here in Texas who tells guys that if they can't get pharma GH they shouldn't use any GH, period. Anyone who still believe shit like that deserves to be taken advantage of.

I'll finish this post with another famous quote (I'm probably paraphrasing), this one from Machiavelli - 'A master of deception will always find someone willing to be deceived.'

No thoughts on your exact situation I will just state in a general sense that is very possible. It's the liver that converts to IGF-1 so a low IGF-1 score doesn't mean your HGH is definitely fake. A number of factors/issues can result in a low IGF-1 score. I have seen guys with 100 IGF-1 on large doses of legit hgh (pharma or generic). Then comes the serum and that is more of an indication in many ways but that can also be misleading especially when there is no prior bloodwork to reference.

If someone saw 15 they may think underdosed or fake etc but you scored similarly on the blacks. If you had 5 past serums on different brands all in the 30-40's then that (both numbers) would be conclusive (numbers don't lie). However sometimes numbers can be misinterpreted. So there is a chance your hgh is real so don't think you have 100% been scammed. I would guess (most are) it's fake but there is still a chance you haven't been ripped off. I would recommend sending a vial off to be lab tested.

this two post 100% I agree

 

[Josefein421]

Yes Cris Edmonds is the coach. I trusted him. He has a good rep and the mountain dog brand behind him. He gave me the source info when we started. Said he was well known and used with multiple "Olympia guys". And that he used the guy. He pushed Pharma as the be all end all and having never used it and thinking I had a reliable source I tried it. Now as others have said I question other things like the oils/anavar (there are females using this guys anavar). The effort or trustworthiness otherwise. I don't want to stop my plan or diet per se it just puts a big ick on wanting to continue w him. I feel betrayed.

Interesting points about the Tren. It just seems like like a massive difference in numbers on what is a higher dose. I hear all about this magic of Pharma at decent doses and it grossly underperformed lab wise and also anecdotal wise that it seems tough to be real. I mean it isn't even close. And I realized my nails and hair don't grow super fast like the generic.

I guess I just learned a tough lesson. I trusted someone(s) and was wrong.

 

[mytreefiddy]

This is why we tell guys to go with generics over pharma - these days you're much more likely to get fake GH with pharma rather than generics. If someone pushes pharma GH on you they almost always have an ulterior and likely not good motive.

This right here.... Key word "pushes".. making suggestions and pushing somebody are 2 different things...

 

[Josefein421]

"In what fucking world would I send you to someone to get shitty product?!"

"All I know is this... that's where I send all my clients."

"So where do we move forward w this?"

Damn not even an apology or taking some ownership that the sole reason I sued the source is bc he vouched for them and referred me? Like not even "Wow. This is the first this has ever happened. I've used him for a long time. This is shitty. Tell me more about the labs and how you're feeling? What can we do to make this right?"

Just ban right to defensive and the "In what fucking world..." idk what world dude. You attached your name and reputation. Idk why but now if it's fake it blows back on you too. I'll tell you who's not at fault here... ME so don't be a fucking jerk. Last time I had some concerns about not being where I thought I should be or pushing hard enough it was "You need to chill the fuck out." And had 750 cals a day yanked and "let's see what you're made of now".

I've worked hard and done everything I was asked. This is about the leanest at this musculature I've ever been. It's been trying... energy is super low, I moved and am mid divorce during this process and I keep grinding away. Yeah it's been really hard lately. More power to all those who compete and suffer much worse.

But this just took the wind from my sails even if it's just a 10% difference in results.

Idk where to go from here. Push onward on my own. Hire someone else. Reverse? I had a small photoshoot targeted as a goal
For the diet. They've been slow to get me details for a deposit. I feel like I'm begging. Maybe it's all a sign idk.

Of course stopping the Clen, t3, tren would be great. Adding some food. I don't want to be a pussy but like I said it definitely took some shine off and idk how I continue w Cris both Delma trust standpoint but also annoyed w how he talks to me given I didn't do anything wrong.

Could the 50 of tren ace a day really zap my igf levels that much when I'm on 1.4iu MORE of geno than the blacks? Seems so drastic...

 

[beast405]

I agree with Elvia. Just because your igf is low doesn’t mean the gh is fake at all. There are alot of different factors involved in the igf number. Gh serum is really the number to look for to tell if it’s real gh or not (imo) . That said most ph**m gh is fake anyway so I use generics. I’ve had my igf tested on several sources gh that we all know are legit and my igf is never out of the normal range. I do get great results on it though so the igf number doesn’t bother me.

 

[RandomMachine]

"In what fucking world would I send you to someone to get shitty product?!"

"All I know is this... that's where I send all my clients."

"So where do we move forward w this?"

Damn not even an apology or taking some ownership that the sole reason I sued the source is bc he vouched for them and referred me? Like not even "Wow. This is the first this has ever happened. I've used him for a long time. This is shitty. Tell me more about the labs and how you're feeling? What can we do to make this right?"

Just ban right to defensive and the "In what fucking world..." idk what world dude. You attached your name and reputation. Idk why but now if it's fake it blows back on you too. I'll tell you who's not at fault here... ME so don't be a fucking jerk. Last time I had some concerns about not being where I thought I should be or pushing hard enough it was "You need to chill the fuck out." And had 750 cals a day yanked and "let's see what you're made of now".

I've worked hard and done everything I was asked. This is about the leanest at this musculature I've ever been. It's been trying... energy is super low, I moved and am mid divorce during this process and I keep grinding away. Yeah it's been really hard lately. More power to all those who compete and suffer much worse.

But this just took the wind from my sails even if it's just a 10% difference in results.

Idk where to go from here. Push onward on my own. Hire someone else. Reverse? I had a small photoshoot targeted as a goal
For the diet. They've been slow to get me details for a deposit. I feel like I'm begging. Maybe it's all a sign idk.

Of course stopping the Clen, t3, tren would be great. Adding some food. I don't want to be a pussy but like I said it definitely took some shine off and idk how I continue w Cris both Delma trust standpoint but also annoyed w how he talks to me given I didn't do anything wrong.

Could the 50 of tren ace a day really zap my igf levels that much when I'm on 1.4iu MORE of geno than the blacks? Seems so drastic...

You can not determine GH quality from IGF testing.

You had the money to buy pharma now spend a little bit more to get it tested. Sounds like you have a lot of reasons to want to know for sure.

 

[vwnesta]

Can someone tell me who TP is for HGH needs? ThankYou, much appreciated

 

[Scorpyd]

Can someone tell me who TP is for HGH needs? ThankYou, much appreciated

TP -The Provider
in the Sponsor section.
Brand - Meditrope

 

[Reno911]

Not ONE coach I’ve worked with has EVER given me source suggestions or even tried. And I’ve worked with and am now, the best.

If a coach is pushing their gear source it means they have something to benefit from it, which is fine as long as they disclose that and are willing to be called out in these cases. It’s why I don’t have any affiliations in this sport like that. Prefer to remain objective.

Now with that said, the best lesson for anyone to gain from this is that you don’t get items in this industry unless they’re an approved sponsor on this board. Hasn’t failed me since 2007 since I’ve been here… just sayin.

THIS ^^^^

Not Shelby, Matt P., Bleu, AJ, or Andrew Berry ever told me or pointed me where to get stuff.

 

[Black Beard]

"In what fucking world would I send you to someone to get shitty product?!"

"All I know is this... that's where I send all my clients."

"So where do we move forward w this?"

Damn not even an apology or taking some ownership that the sole reason I sued the source is bc he vouched for them and referred me? Like not even "Wow. This is the first this has ever happened. I've used him for a long time. This is shitty. Tell me more about the labs and how you're feeling? What can we do to make this right?"

Just ban right to defensive and the "In what fucking world..." idk what world dude. You attached your name and reputation. Idk why but now if it's fake it blows back on you too. I'll tell you who's not at fault here... ME so don't be a fucking jerk. Last time I had some concerns about not being where I thought I should be or pushing hard enough it was "You need to chill the fuck out." And had 750 cals a day yanked and "let's see what you're made of now".

I've worked hard and done everything I was asked. This is about the leanest at this musculature I've ever been. It's been trying... energy is super low, I moved and am mid divorce during this process and I keep grinding away. Yeah it's been really hard lately. More power to all those who compete and suffer much worse.

But this just took the wind from my sails even if it's just a 10% difference in results.

Idk where to go from here. Push onward on my own. Hire someone else. Reverse? I had a small photoshoot targeted as a goal
For the diet. They've been slow to get me details for a deposit. I feel like I'm begging. Maybe it's all a sign idk.

Of course stopping the Clen, t3, tren would be great. Adding some food. I don't want to be a pussy but like I said it definitely took some shine off and idk how I continue w Cris both Delma trust standpoint but also annoyed w how he talks to me given I didn't do anything wrong.

Could the 50 of tren ace a day really zap my igf levels that much when I'm on 1.4iu MORE of geno than the blacks? Seems so drastic...

So you had high IGF-1 on TP blacks with tren ace in the past?

If so, that is somewhat telling, especially if you were on both for similar periods of time.

 

[livinlean]

"In what fucking world would I send you to someone to get shitty product?!"

"All I know is this... that's where I send all my clients."

"So where do we move forward w this?"

Damn not even an apology or taking some ownership that the sole reason I sued the source is bc he vouched for them and referred me? Like not even "Wow. This is the first this has ever happened. I've used him for a long time. This is shitty. Tell me more about the labs and how you're feeling? What can we do to make this right?"

Just ban right to defensive and the "In what fucking world..." idk what world dude. You attached your name and reputation. Idk why but now if it's fake it blows back on you too. I'll tell you who's not at fault here... ME so don't be a fucking jerk. Last time I had some concerns about not being where I thought I should be or pushing hard enough it was "You need to chill the fuck out." And had 750 cals a day yanked and "let's see what you're made of now".

I've worked hard and done everything I was asked. This is about the leanest at this musculature I've ever been. It's been trying... energy is super low, I moved and am mid divorce during this process and I keep grinding away. Yeah it's been really hard lately. More power to all those who compete and suffer much worse.

But this just took the wind from my sails even if it's just a 10% difference in results.

Idk where to go from here. Push onward on my own. Hire someone else. Reverse? I had a small photoshoot targeted as a goal
For the diet. They've been slow to get me details for a deposit. I feel like I'm begging. Maybe it's all a sign idk.

Of course stopping the Clen, t3, tren would be great. Adding some food. I don't want to be a pussy but like I said it definitely took some shine off and idk how I continue w Cris both Delma trust standpoint but also annoyed w how he talks to me given I didn't do anything wrong.

Could the 50 of tren ace a day really zap my igf levels that much when I'm on 1.4iu MORE of geno than the blacks? Seems so drastic...

Man this guy sounds like a shit coach if thats how he's replying or maybe a decent coach and a shit human being. TBH you should have fired him when he dropped you 750 cals and said "lets see what you're made of"

As for IGF. That drop sounds too drastic. I dropped about 150 points when on tren but I went from the high 4s to the low 3s. I realize this may be individual but your drop sounds way too drastic. Have you thought about sending a pen for testing to get a definitive answer?

 

[luki7788]

Yes Cris Edmonds is the coach. I trusted him. He has a good rep and the mountain dog brand behind him. He gave me the source info when we started. Said he was well known and used with multiple "Olympia guys". And that he used the guy. He pushed Pharma as the be all end all and having never used it and thinking I had a reliable source I tried it. Now as others have said I question other things like the oils/anavar (there are females using this guys anavar). The effort or trustworthiness otherwise. I don't want to stop my plan or diet per se it just puts a big ick on wanting to continue w him. I feel betrayed.

Interesting points about the Tren. It just seems like like a massive difference in numbers on what is a higher dose. I hear all about this magic of Pharma at decent doses and it grossly underperformed lab wise and also anecdotal wise that it seems tough to be real. I mean it isn't even close. And I realized my nails and hair don't grow super fast like the generic.

I guess I just learned a tough lesson. I trusted someone(s) and was wrong.

I love this argument "Olympia guys" I don't know what people who make such an argument think, but I think they think anyone is an idiot who believes in such shit

I ask a lot of top amateurs and many PROs from Europe and I personally know that 100% of the bodybuilders I know use generic - magic pharma lol

 

[bbxtreme]

"In what fucking world would I send you to someone to get shitty product?!"

"All I know is this... that's where I send all my clients."

"So where do we move forward w this?"

Damn not even an apology or taking some ownership that the sole reason I sued the source is bc he vouched for them and referred me? Like not even "Wow. This is the first this has ever happened. I've used him for a long time. This is shitty. Tell me more about the labs and how you're feeling? What can we do to make this right?"

Just ban right to defensive and the "In what fucking world..." idk what world dude. You attached your name and reputation. Idk why but now if it's fake it blows back on you too. I'll tell you who's not at fault here... ME so don't be a fucking jerk. Last time I had some concerns about not being where I thought I should be or pushing hard enough it was "You need to chill the fuck out." And had 750 cals a day yanked and "let's see what you're made of now".

I've worked hard and done everything I was asked. This is about the leanest at this musculature I've ever been. It's been trying... energy is super low, I moved and am mid divorce during this process and I keep grinding away. Yeah it's been really hard lately. More power to all those who compete and suffer much worse.

But this just took the wind from my sails even if it's just a 10% difference in results.

Idk where to go from here. Push onward on my own. Hire someone else. Reverse? I had a small photoshoot targeted as a goal
For the diet. They've been slow to get me details for a deposit. I feel like I'm begging. Maybe it's all a sign idk.

Of course stopping the Clen, t3, tren would be great. Adding some food. I don't want to be a pussy but like I said it definitely took some shine off and idk how I continue w Cris both Delma trust standpoint but also annoyed w how he talks to me given I didn't do anything wrong.

Could the 50 of tren ace a day really zap my igf levels that much when I'm on 1.4iu MORE of geno than the blacks? Seems so drastic...

Based on his response alone I would find a new coach. HGH aside it sounds like the two of you don’t mesh.

I tell every guy on here who DM’s me to interview your coach before you hire them. Ideally on video but at least a call. If you don’t synch then it won’t last.

If you want a top pro coach I’d go with @IFBBProDomCardone as his guys are on point right now.

Then you also have @luki7788 and @Quadlife who know their shit and are awesome coaches.

Once trust is lost with a coach it’s hard to get past it. Either way do what’s best for you.

I’d move back to the meditropes, get a new coach and take the learning lesson. Just saved you 6-12 months of true progress missed from having the wrong coach by experiencing this IMO. Find the win.