Training EOD (3-4x per week)

[Jefe]

I love EOD. It’s what works best for me. My joints like it and the mental break is nice. Grow well and stay lean.

Sometimes I’ll do extra calves abs forearms on a no lift day.

“Off days aren’t off. I feel like it’s “administrative BBing day.” Food shopping, cooking, dishes, finding that shaker ball my cats have been playing with under my bed. There’s always some little thing to do I don’t want to do on lift day.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I train every day, some day 2 times, I don`t follow any training splits or other gurus routine, I do what works the best for me , and I love it. You need to create the training that works for you the best and you need to enjoyed. Eat, train and rest and you will grow. You need workout brutal and smart. I am not a person with great genetic.

 

[TheSteamboat]

Off days aren’t off. I feel like it’s “administrative BBing day.” Food shopping, cooking, dishes, finding that shaker ball my cats have been playing with under my bed.

So pretty much normal human responsibilities?

 

[Jefe]

So pretty much normal human responsibilities?

Yes. It’s total bullshit!

 

[need4tren]

I know I could grow a lot better doing 4 days a week, my cns on the 3rd day is always completely fucked. But I enjoy training to much so I do 2 on 1 off 3 on 1 off. It’s hard to not do 3 on 1 off but my 3rd workout is always trash

 

[luki7788]

I train every day, some day 2 times, I don`t follow any training splits or other gurus routine, I do what works the best for me , and I love it. You need to create the training that works for you the best and you need to enjoyed. Eat, train and rest and you will grow. You need workout brutal and smart. I am not a person with great genetic.

with all due respect but you are no longer training to develop - your goal is simply to remain fit and healthy so in such a case training every day or even twice a day is most welcome but in terms of intensity it has nothing to do with young people who want to develop as much as possible

These are two completely different worlds, different goals - let's not compare them because it makes no sense

 

[Yousef12O2]

I train every day, some day 2 times, I don`t follow any training splits or other gurus routine, I do what works the best for me , and I love it. You need to create the training that works for you the best and you need to enjoyed. Eat, train and rest and you will grow. You need workout brutal and smart. I am not a person with great genetic.

Hey emeric do you go to failure when training? How long are your training sessions? How many times do you hit a muscle in a week and do you feel sore the next day?

 

[Flex500]

I've enjoyed trying full body daily (often "almost" daily like 6 days a week) to now much, much lower frequency and moderate volume. The challenge I had mentally with super high frequency is I don't believe you can actually cause muscle damage that way, and if you do, you won't recover (repeated bout effect, mnd size limit, and a million other items apply). That also does not mean you can't or won't grow. No MND size limit on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

It's the ying and the yang of super high frequency will tilt in favor of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and it's pretty straightforward why...and that isn't necessarily bad if you are a bodybuilder whereas training less often and going for actual muscle damage and allowing your body a lot of time to recoup would theoretically focus more on "real" muscle being synthesized.

Kevin Levrone's entire existence was based on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and he accomplished all his goals that way. So it's not "bad". But it is temporary and very high frequency will pull that lever of growth hard. You add in drugs and you drive it hard. It's a total recipe for success in bodybuilding.

 

[Yousef12O2]

I've enjoyed trying full body daily (often "almost" daily like 6 days a week) to now much, much lower frequency and moderate volume. The challenge I had mentally with super high frequency is I don't believe you can actually cause muscle damage that way, and if you do, you won't recover (repeated bout effect, mnd size limit, and a million other items apply). That also does not mean you can't or won't grow. No MND size limit on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

It's the ying and the yang of super high frequency will tilt in favor of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and it's pretty straightforward why...and that isn't necessarily bad if you are a bodybuilder whereas training less often and going for actual muscle damage and allowing your body a lot of time to recoup would theoretically focus more on "real" muscle being synthesized.

Kevin Levrone's entire existence was based on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and he accomplished all his goals that way. So it's not "bad". But it is temporary and very high frequency will pull that lever of growth hard. You add in drugs and you drive it hard. It's a total recipe for success in bodybuilding.

Please explain brother

 

[luki7788]

I've enjoyed trying full body daily (often "almost" daily like 6 days a week) to now much, much lower frequency and moderate volume. The challenge I had mentally with super high frequency is I don't believe you can actually cause muscle damage that way, and if you do, you won't recover (repeated bout effect, mnd size limit, and a million other items apply). That also does not mean you can't or won't grow. No MND size limit on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

It's the ying and the yang of super high frequency will tilt in favor of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and it's pretty straightforward why...and that isn't necessarily bad if you are a bodybuilder whereas training less often and going for actual muscle damage and allowing your body a lot of time to recoup would theoretically focus more on "real" muscle being synthesized.

Kevin Levrone's entire existence was based on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and he accomplished all his goals that way. So it's not "bad". But it is temporary and very high frequency will pull that lever of growth hard. You add in drugs and you drive it hard. It's a total recipe for success in bodybuilding.

I don't believe in the sarcoplasmic growth theory in Levrone's case - if it was just sarcoplasm he wouldn't be so damn strong

 

[svenrpb]

Dude 99% of people that train on this site will never be a pro, including yourself even with your "perfect" way to train. I don't know why you feel the need to come here and invalidate everyone's way of training just to make yourself feel good about the way you train. Like why do I have to be prepared to get beat up and not get the results I'm after if i don't train eod?

You are taking it very personal. I have stated many times everyone has to do what they wanna do. I love the gym and would love to be there everyday, for me eod or 4 times a week works like 10 times better. Worth a try.

 

[psychor]

It says for naturals but food for thought and something to consider.

 

[psychor]

JM's opinion!

 

[IntenseVolume]

I’m going to say there is no “best” for every person.
There’s so many variables.

 

[emeric delczeg]

with all due respect but you are no longer training to develop - your goal is simply to remain fit and healthy so in such a case training every day or even twice a day is most welcome but in terms of intensity it has nothing to do with young people who want to develop as much as possible

These are two completely different worlds, different goals - let's not compare them because it makes no sense

I did trained to stay fit for many years after not competing, but I started to lose size, but at the beginning of 2021 at age 68 I started working out 80% the way I use to when I was competing to gain back size, and I did put back some size and will still gain size back long as I train brutal and smart. Once you reach your genetically protentional size and you want to maintain the size you still need to train the way you did before reaching that size, I am spiking from my own experiment. My advice don`t take it easy because your are geting older, I did for years and was a mistake, now I am as active as I was in my 20s.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Hey emeric do you go to failure when training? How long are your training sessions? How many times do you hit a muscle in a week and do you feel sore the next day?

Yes I do go to failure and beyond by incorporating negative. My training sessions are 2 hours , I train each body part every day, example Mondays legs after legs I do 2 set light weight high reps (30 reps) on rest of my upper body, and finish with regular pushups 2 set as many I can do, on non leg days I do do 1set of 100 reps body weight squats and box up jumps. I do pushup every days at and of my workouts. I like high reps 12 + , I go dip squats with 135 bls, and box squat with wights over 135, that way I have no knee or hips problem. I don`t do any behind neck exercises. I consume 24 raw eggs every day and 1/2 gallon of raw milk.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Good thread, certainly some food for thought.

 

[Flex500]

I don't believe in the sarcoplasmic growth theory in Levrone's case - if it was just sarcoplasm he wouldn't be so damn strong

I believe it is unrelated. There are multiple studies but we see that the Myocytic androgen receptor controls the strength but not the size of the limb muscle. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20660752/

"myocytic AR controls key pathways required for maximum force production"

It's all chemical strength. Chemical meaning androgen receptor not meaning his drug dose. It works the same for naturals. However, I do AGREE that it wasn't just fluid. With the way he trained (when I saw him live he did a lot of negative work) it would surely create some muscle damage and real repair.

 

[Flex500]

Please explain brother

It's been on my mind, I'll start a thread. These are concepts I've wrestled with for 20 years when I got my bachelors in biology to now. We have newer studies now but these concepts are always on my mind. This also isn't minutia (ie which joint angle will perfectly hit the outer 1/18 of my biceps, etc. etc). This are big bold "things" that can radically impact what is happening when you eat and train:

• MND size limit https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25464670/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130137/
  • "MND size has a "ceiling" limit during hypertrophic process beyond which extra myonuclei are donated by satellite cell to support further muscle growth"
• Repeated bout effect https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169747/#:~:text=Stresses to skeletal muscle often,(RBE), are unclear.
  • If this didn't exist factory workers would probably be dying daily. This protects your body from damage of the same type of activity. Even weeks later. If you are an accustomed lifter adding a little weight, pushing a little hard doesn't cut it. This is an important safety mechanism of your body. This is a major reason why so few people make progress.
• Strength vs size of limb muscles and what controls what (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20660752/)
  • A stronga doesn't get you a bigga. AR receptor is the driving of increasing force/strength
• Sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/
  • For accustomed lifters, it's almost all sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Fake muscle, fluid. Cosmetic only.
• Protein requirements to build tissue (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732256/

 

[Flex500]

It's been on my mind, I'll start a thread. These are concepts I've wrestled with for 20 years when I got my bachelors in biology to now. We have newer studies now but these concepts are always on my mind. This also isn't minutia (ie which joint angle will perfectly hit the outer 1/18 of my biceps, etc. etc). This are big bold "things" that can radically impact what is happening when you eat and train:

• MND size limit https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25464670/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130137/
  • "MND size has a "ceiling" limit during hypertrophic process beyond which extra myonuclei are donated by satellite cell to support further muscle growth"
• Repeated bout effect https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169747/#:~:text=Stresses to skeletal muscle often,(RBE), are unclear.
  • If this didn't exist factory workers would probably be dying daily. This protects your body from damage of the same type of activity. Even weeks later. If you are an accustomed lifter adding a little weight, pushing a little hard doesn't cut it. This is an important safety mechanism of your body. This is a major reason why so few people make progress.
• Strength vs size of limb muscles and what controls what (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20660752/)
  • A stronga doesn't get you a bigga. AR receptor is the driving of increasing force/strength
• Sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/
  • For accustomed lifters, it's almost all sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Fake muscle, fluid. Cosmetic only.
• Protein requirements to build tissue (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732256/

hit post too soon....

It's been on my mind, I'll start a thread. These are concepts I've wrestled with for 20 years when I got my bachelors in biology to now. We have newer studies now but these concepts are always on my mind. This also isn't minutia (ie which joint angle will perfectly hit the outer 1/18 of my biceps, etc. etc). These are big, bold "things" that can radically impact what is happening when and how you eat and train:

• MND size limit https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25464670/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130137/
  • "MND size has a "ceiling" limit during hypertrophic process beyond which extra myonuclei are donated by satellite cell to support further muscle growth"
• Repeated bout effect https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169747/#:~:text=Stresses to skeletal muscle often,(RBE), are unclear.
  • If this didn't exist factory workers would probably be dying daily. This protects your body from damage of the same type of activity. Even weeks later. If you are an accustomed lifter adding a little weight, pushing a little hard doesn't cut it. This is an important safety mechanism of your body. This is a major reason why so few people make progress.
• Strength vs size of limb muscles and what controls what (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20660752/)
  • A stronga doesn't get you a bigga. AR receptor is the driving of increasing force/strength
• Sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/
  • For accustomed lifters, it's almost all sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Fake muscle, fluid. Cosmetic only.
• Protein requirements to build tissue (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732256/

What this leads me to personally are a handful of overarching concepts to drive myofibrillar hypertrophy and escape MND size limit and RBE:

1. Train infrequently. I don't know exactly how often, but it definitely isn't 4+ times a week. Likely 1-2...possibly three but unlikely.
2. Train very hard with extremely high tension, no momentum, and put a lot of focus on negatives (negatives cause much more muscle damage)
3. Food is the most important thing (duh). No sets, no reps, no volume builds the muscle. Cause damage by lifting infrequently and eat a lot of food, specifically protein. "If muscle is going to gain mass, protein synthesis must exceed protein breakdown". This is a big "duh" for us. This is not apparent for casual lifters. Animal protein should be the driver. Higher protein is best. Added carbs will contribute to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Some carbs are fine, I'm not saying never eat them at all. Eating a metric ton is a key driver of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (again, I'm not saying it's bad).
4. There is no MND size limit on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Eat carbs, drive a pump, drive frequency and you can shoot sarcoplasmic hypertrophy to the mother effing moon. Add in anabolic and holly hell. Again, for sarcoplasmic you don't have almost any of the above to contend with AND you don't even have to train that hard.
5. It's not all one or the other. Luki and I may disagree on sarcoplasmic (although, all cards on the table I think the science is settled comparing sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy and what's what) hypertrophy but I do agree with him the way some bodybuilders train and eat many are driving some level of "real" (myrofibrillar) growth. It's not all one or the other but as you become and accustomed lifter over and over and over you hit MND size limit, RBE kicks in, and real growth is over.

Lastly, It is up to the individual if it matters. When you see guys online say "don't worry if you haven't trained in a month and you are smaller you can just start lifting and muscle memory comes in" that is referring all to sarcoplasmic hypertoprhy. When you see Mike Isratel talk about doing some reps on vacation so you don't lose size that is all sarcoplasmic.

Years back I stopped all carbs, went carnivore and stopped lifting for a month while also staying overall active. I lost a ton of "muscle". That doesn't happen with real muscle. It's fake, phony, fluid. I'm not arguing if anyone should care about any of this. I do. Theoretically the more myofibrillar muscle you can drive then you can follow that up with more sarcoplasmic.

You can go deep in the weeds, but the top 5 concepts are pretty tried and true and concepts we should consider. Just listen to how influencers talk though. All of these kind of quotes are not about real muscle if you watch these guys on youtube...

"go the gym once or twice on vacation and you won't lose any muscle while your gone"
"concerned about your muscle loss while on the beach for a week, it's normal, and you will get it back"
"it's normal that if you don't lift a few weeks you will lose muscle but it comes back as soon as you go in there"
Milos sarcev talking about he pump, insulin, etc. that's all pumping fluid, it's not building myofibrillar tissue
the list goes on and on...

sorry that's just kind of thoughts off the cuff...No need to get tied off on 50 different concepts and paralysis by analysis...but I believe we should be thinking about those five key concepts above...