AmpK activates Myostatin

[discohornet]

I have known for years that drugs which activate AmpK (metformin, GW-501516, AICAR, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Berberine, Corosolic Acid, Resveratrol just to name a few) will increase fat burning while also decreasing muscle building. Up until just recently, however, the exact mechanism for this phenomenon was unknown. Turns out, that AmpK activates Myostatin, which is definitely not something you want if putting on pounds of muscle mass is your main goal at the time.

 

[Gravel]

I have to admit that is disappointing to read but if I was dieting for a show calorie restricted taking Clen and t3 I wouldn't expect to be putting on muscle. There is always a catch...:banghead: Thanks for the info.

 

[discohornet]

I have to admit that is disappointing to read but if I was dieting for a show calorie restricted taking Clen and t3 I wouldn't expect to be putting on muscle. There is always a catch...:banghead: Thanks for the info.

Right. And if anything, I believe if you cycle AmpK agonists with Anabolic compounds, meaning you Feast for a few months and then Fast for a few, and you utilize the proper compounds during those time - NPP or EQ during bulking, Tren and Masteron during cutting, you will find the bulking brings about renewed gains and the cutting portion brings about more rapid fat loss results.

GH or their corresponding peptides should be utilized during both phases IMO.

There may even be a rebound effect. We see that AAS and GH both inhibit myostatin for a particular time, before homeostasis returns all systems back to normal. But I imagine that taking Ampk agonists during a cutting phase, while activating Myostatin, may also increase the rebound that will occur when you go back to the Feast Mode.

 

[discohornet]

And I hope all those who are taking Metformin, or any other serious insulin sensitizers during their bulking phases may realize that this could be hindering their gains in a big way. I do advocate using things like Metformin (although it kills my sex drive) but I believe they should be used in a cyclical nature. Run the Met during a cut, and then lay off of it during a bulk. As soon as you feel you're starting to lose sensitivity, switch back into a cut. then rinse and repeat.

 

[Gravel]

Disco...so should GW be saved primarily for when the goal is fat loss? Do you think it would be a benefit (muscle building wise) if only used on non training days? Or is the half life too long and it would still trickle over into a training day? How about a low carb non training day......?

Your advice and knowledge is always appreciated!

As I am writing this you just replied.

thanks for the response...makes sense!

 

[3clipseGT]

This makes complete sense to me and now validates some things i had noticed while i was on a long run of Anabolic Pump.

The reason i was on it for over 6+ months was because i figured my insulin was screwy from bootcamp and mct and this would surely correct it.

The weird thing is, is i never get what everyone raves about with these products. I dont get leaner, i dont get harder, and i dont get more vascular. Especially during this time while i was cutting, yes i lost fat but i was running 8-10 miles a week easily plus working out. I was eating a decent amount of carbs but was wondering why i still looked "soft".

I realize there are many many variables when it comea to diet and training bit i never got out of these.products what i thought i should have.

Thanks Disco.

 

[discohornet]

This makes complete sense to me and now validates some things i had noticed while i was on a long run of Anabolic Pump.

I had a rather one-side debate with some of the guys from USPlabs about their products. I have never seen evidence that AmpK agonists would still allow for muscle development. And yet, in spite of this, they went in circles trying to argue the case. They never presented anything meaningful, only long winded statements.

With studies like this, it only makes me feel more reassured in my stance that it's best to save these kinds of drugs for times when you are focusing purely on fat loss.

Again, this isn't to say you shouldn't try and control insulin sensitivity while bulking, but it does mean taking a bunch of insulin sensitizers while trying to become as massive as possible could be a huge waste of time and money if it is also activating myostatin so strongly that it inhibits the growth of new muscle during that time.

I think if you just finished a few months of caloric restriction, or carb restriction, and you were using plenty of things like ALA, Cinnamon, Banaba, Gymnenmna, GW-501516, AICAR, Metformin or fibrates, then you will be more than sensitive enough for the insulin that you will bathe your body in during a two month bulking phase. After about two months I imagine you are going to start noticing a diminishing return on your carbohydrate intake, at which point you go back to fast mode.

That's not to say that people cannot achieve a decent amount of muscle gained while losing bodyfat. I am not saying it isn't possible to accomplish this. But I am saying if you are taking drugs to try to accomplish this, especially if those drugs or supplements involve AmpK activation, you may just be wasting a lot of time and money if your ultimate goal is to pack on 30 more pounds of muscle in the next few years.

 

[discohornet]

Disco...so should GW be saved primarily for when the goal is fat loss? Do you think it would be a benefit (muscle building wise) if only used on non training days? Or is the half life too long and it would still trickle over into a training day? How about a low carb non training day......?

Your advice and knowledge is always appreciated!

As I am writing this you just replied.

thanks for the response...makes sense!

I think the half-life of GW is too long, and more importantly, the effects that GW have on your body's genetic switches last too long. It takes a while for GW to elicit a response from the body, just like it takes a while for the RNA transcription that comes with Androgen receptor agonism to manifest into visible and tangible results. And on the other side, once the effects are set into motion it can take a few weeks to undo the changes that occurred.

If someone insisted I give them the best timing regimen, I would say "Fast" for 2 months, and then "Feast" for 2 months, AND/OR Until you start noticing that your insulin sensitivity is going to shit. Some people might notice they don't hit this sticking point for three or four months, while some of us might notice a month into this, they begin to feel the sensitivity issues coming about. Use your workouts as a guide. If you start feeling flat, weak and slow, even when you are consuming a pretty large amount of carbs, then you are becoming resistant. If you hit with uncontrollable sleepiness after a large carb meal, then you know it's time to get back to fasting.


When I say "Fast" I mean cut. When I say "Feast" I mean bulk. I don't like using the term cutting, because it sounds like the act of harming one's self, like a person might do if they are severely depressed. I also don't like using the word bulking, because it just sounds stupid. This isn't Costco or Sam's club.

 

[Gravel]

In the past year and half I have really became interested in all the new research products so anytime you share I listen.

In a fasted state you may be better off while on GW to back off the weight training and spend more energy doing aerobic activity due to the increased myostatin. Also is it possible that GW would actually protect muscle tissue since AmpK is more interested in burning fat?

 

[Kaladryn]

Good find, but are we even certain myostatin changes (reductions or elevations) in fully developed adults can have an effect?

 

[littlefoot]

So I should use Glycobol (NA-R-ALA, Cinnamon, etc) for a cut, and not bother with it at all or only have a very low dose of it on a mass gaining cycle?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Or

Counteract it with MYO HMP

 

[Gravel]

Counteract it with MYO HMP

Yeah..that was in the back of my mind. But I think the rebound effect after the GW leaves the body, adding calories and then adding MYO HMP would be quite interesting.

 

[discohornet]

In the past year and half I have really became interested in all the new research products so anytime you share I listen.

In a fasted state you may be better off while on GW to back off the weight training and spend more energy doing aerobic activity due to the increased myostatin. Also is it possible that GW would actually protect muscle tissue since AmpK is more interested in burning fat?

I think that AmpK does tend to make a switch to fat as a preferred fuel source. I don't necessarily think that it will preserve muscle tissue though, if your training regimen is so brutal that you're tearing yourself down during the workout and then expecting the body to recover from the damage and build new muscle.

I do think taking something like tren will help alleviate any catabolism of muscle tissue; winstrol or anavar may work just as well if you are prone to issues with tren.

Think about it like this. The body does NOT want to build muscle. Muscle is a liability, it creates further demands for energy from the body. The only way you can build muscle is to convince the body that everything is ok, that you are in an abundance of food and energy. We do that by being well fed.

When you activate AmpK through exercise, it is a momentary switch to fat burning, and it will be able to serve that purpose so long as you are not pushing your workouts past the point of recovery. At that point it will need to start breaking down glycogen and/or muscle tissue in order to create glucose in order to feed the ATP energy system.

But my point here is that AmpK agonists will extend this period of fat utilization. We can trick our bodies into thinking it's still exercising. In this way we get a major benefit, but we also make the tradeoff of limiting our capacity to build new muscle tissue. So if you got a lot of fat to shed, it's time to dig in and get it done with AmpK agonists. Then, when you are at a good percentage of bodyfat, it's time to feast and build.

 

[discohornet]

Counteract it with MYO HMP

You can do that, although I don't know if there is any research that has been done yet showing this to be effective. For all we know, the AmpK activation of Myostatin could trump any attempts at inhibition. There's only one way to find out, but honestly I think the best bet would be to use MYO HMP during the feasting period once you have eliminated the impact that AmpK has had on your body.

So in essence I'm saying, hell yeah you should use MYO HMP. Just use it during the periods in which you're not using AmpK agonists. That way you're sure to get the most bang for your buck.

 

[discohornet]

Good find, but are we even certain myostatin changes (reductions or elevations) in fully developed adults can have an effect?

Kaladryn, thanks for popping into the discussion. I appreciate your posts, and I'm glad you commented.

What exactly are you asking here? Are you suggesting that Myostatin might not play a significant role in in the muscle tissue of a fully developed adult?

I think that science has shown us that inhibition of Myostatin can have a significant impact on muscle tissue, even in fully developed adults. I think this is one of the major reasons why AAS and GH play so well together, AND at the same time, eventually stop doing their magic due to Myostatin regulation and homeostasis. I have seen studies showing that GH will inhibit myostatin for a period of about 8-10 weeks, and then homeostasis occurs. Again, this would be a good reason to switch to a cyclical approach to GH use, which actually contradicts what I said earlier. I mentioned that GH should be used during all phases of a diet, and now I'm beginning to think it might be best to use is sparingly during a fasting period, just enough to enhance lipolysis, and then crank the hell out of the dosage during a feasting period.

But I'm rambling at this point, and I'm still not quite sure if I understood your contribution to the post so I'll wait for you to elaborate.

 

[discohornet]

So I should use Glycobol (NA-R-ALA, Cinnamon, etc) for a cut, and not bother with it at all or only have a very low dose of it on a mass gaining cycle?

That's what I am suggesting, yes. I don't know that I'd even use a small dose of it. If you're going to try this for yourself, and I encourage everyone to do just that, then I think it would be best to use a ton of it during the fasting period and then completely eliminate it during a feasting period. The only exception might be Alpha Lipoic acid, since it's simply one of the best anti-oxidants I know of.

I will be expanding on this thread in a short while, where I will suggest using a different kind of insulin sensitizing agent, one which does not affect AmpK. I gotta dig into the research before I start running my mouth off though, so hold tight.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Not surprising and just another reason why doing too much cardio is bad for muscle gains. Many of the pathways (i.e. AMPK) that are activated by endurance-type training also block the hypertrophy pathways (like Akt/mTOR).

 

[Kaladryn]

Kaladryn, thanks for popping into the discussion. I appreciate your posts, and I'm glad you commented.

What exactly are you asking here? Are you suggesting that Myostatin might not play a significant role in in the muscle tissue of a fully developed adult?

I think that science has shown us that inhibition of Myostatin can have a significant impact on muscle tissue, even in fully developed adults. I think this is one of the major reasons why AAS and GH play so well together, AND at the same time, eventually stop doing their magic due to Myostatin regulation and homeostasis. I have seen studies showing that GH will inhibit myostatin for a period of about 8-10 weeks, and then homeostasis occurs. Again, this would be a good reason to switch to a cyclical approach to GH use, which actually contradicts what I said earlier. I mentioned that GH should be used during all phases of a diet, and now I'm beginning to think it might be best to use is sparingly during a fasting period, just enough to enhance lipolysis, and then crank the hell out of the dosage during a feasting period.

But I'm rambling at this point, and I'm still not quite sure if I understood your contribution to the post so I'll wait for you to elaborate.

You pretty much got my question, I am just unaware of anything definitive showing that myostatin inhibition causes any positive effect in a fully grown mammal.

After reviewing some studies, I see that there have been changes in grown mammals using gene doping...

 

[TODouble2]

I will be expanding on this thread in a short while, where I will suggest using a different kind of insulin sensitizing agent, one which does not affect AmpK. I gotta dig into the research before I start running my mouth off though, so hold tight.

Thanks for this info disco. I definitely want to know about this other agent that doesn't affect ampK.

I have a question: What do you think about using something like Metformin sparingly for large cheat meals while on a bulk?

Also what about if youre using insulin? Wouldnt it be wise to use insulin sensitizing agents while taking insulin? Wouldn't you still make great gains with something as powerful as slin even with myostatin present?