Edema

[bigoso]

high end dosing with exemestane will suppress SHBG,increasing free estrone and estradiol (they have lower affinity but still affinity), it will also increase test and free test, in turn this CAN increase estrone and estradiol.

you are likely a high testicular producer of aromatase, which is why estrone levels are so elevated. Guessing that with T alone you are not all that suppressed (did you happen to get lh and fsh).

what are your other results? eg did your test levels go up again?

and yes, you may be one of those people that needs letrozole or anastrozole. you may also want to have doctor check you for variocele, or other testicular anomoly (though only if your test levels have not gone up significantly).


and here is probably the question that should have been asked right off. are you taking finasteride, dutasteride or other 5alpha reductase inhibitor (saw palmetto, etc..)?

Didn't get the test levels tested again this time...think I will try and get some adex. Interesting you mention variocele...I had surgery to correct that years ago. Not on, nor have I ever been on finasteride, dutasteride, etc. Are you saying I may be better off just dropping the dose back to 25 mg until I get some adex?

 

[bigoso]

one must also consider the contest prep and diet, which may have effects on you that are not typical (since you mention this has happened during both your contest preps).

are you taking anything else?
supps, meds, etc...

cardio?

The two preps couldn't have been more different honestly. Last prep I did a carb cycling diet where I was consuming pretty high carbs and LOTS of food. This prep Im working with Palumbo so needless to say...no carbs and not much food. The only similarities are 1) I started with high bodyfat in both cases 2) I have done lots of cardio. But both times it starts happening after about 10 weeks of being "on". Weird thing is I've done cycles in the past and only used Nolvadex and not had any of these problems

 

[Macro]

Didn't get the test levels tested again this time...think I will try and get some adex. Interesting you mention variocele...I had surgery to correct that years ago. Not on, nor have I ever been on finasteride, dutasteride, etc. Are you saying I may be better off just dropping the dose back to 25 mg until I get some adex?

yes. but you may need nolva or toremifene (perhaps a better option).

one wonders if perhaps you have esterified estrogen storage issues, uncommon for men but a possibility. Though pretty unlikely. however, it would explain the nolva impact vs. AI impact.

high level bodyfat loss, eventually forcing release (from lipid storage). could also be xenoestrogens stored in bodyfat.

will be looking further into those possibilities. Though, and perhaps also related to esterification and perhaps not, it might be an issue related to original variocele. (pocket of very high aromatase producing tissue, perhaps also esterifying if ones has the right blood lipid profile)

 

[Macro]

do you work with pesitices, industrial chemicals, etc??

 

[bigoso]

no, work in healthcare

 

[bigoso]

so reading your other thread explaining central/peripheral production and estrone/estardiol....I'm thinking letro may be appropriate right now...would you say a daily dose of 2.5 could get things in order, then maybe for pct go back to the aromasin?

 

[Macro]

so reading your other thread explaining central/peripheral production and estrone/estardiol....I'm thinking letro may be appropriate right now...would you say a daily dose of 2.5 could get things in order, then maybe for pct go back to the aromasin?

yes. but dont want to say with certainty that your issue is central/glandular (though it may very well be). eg. letrozole is indicated in variocele, and it is definitely more potent.

but there may be other factors at work, other than tissue of aromatase production. though more likely than not, regardless of the source of aromatase, letrozole should make an impact (particularly at that dose).


do wish that you had gotten test and SHBG test, that might be very telling... high level SHBG suppression could also cause your issues (EVEN WITH HIGH DOSE TEST, you could have low plasma test and elevated E... when its not so late will explain the underpinnings of that scenario)-- though will post up a study that kind of "discovered" this issue...

1: J Sex Med. 2008 Jan;5(1):241-7. Epub 2007 Oct 24. Links
Low sex hormone-binding globulin and testosterone levels in association with erectile dysfunction among human immunodeficiency virus-infected men receiving testosterone and oxandrolone.Wasserman P, Segal-Maurer S, Rubin D.
Infectious Disease Division, Department of Medicine--New York Hospital Queens, Flushing, NY, USA. [email protected]

INTRODUCTION: Men with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) wasting and hypogonadism are frequently treated with testosterone and oxandrolone, an orally administered anabolic-androgenic steroid hormone. We observed reductions in testosterone and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels, in association with complaints of erectile dysfunction, after prolonged exposure to this therapeutic regimen. AIM: First description of an association between long-term receipt of oxandrolone with erectile dysfunction, low SHBG and testosterone. METHODS: Case report of three human immunodeficiency virus-infected hypogonadal male patients receiving treatment for wasting syndrome and hypogonadism, and highly active antiretroviral therapy. All three patients received long-term oxandrolone in addition to testosterone replacement therapy. RESULTS: Testosterone and SHBG levels for patients 1, 2, and 3, respectively: total testosterone 183, 71, and 151 ng/dL (260-1,000 ng/dL); free testosterone (not done for patient 3) 58.3 and 26.9 pg/mL (50-210 pg/mL); SHBG 6, 9, and 6 nmol/L (7-50 nmol/L). No other hormonal abnormalities were detected. Following discontinuation of oxandrolone, levels of total testosterone rose, consistent with increase in SHBG. One patient received repeat SHBG assay documenting rise in SHBG level. Patient 2 reported return of libido and early morning erections several weeks after discontinuation of oxandrolone. CONCLUSIONS: Patients had erectile dysfunction in association with low testosterone and SHBG, in spite of exogenous testosterone replacement. Discontinuation of oxandrolone led to the normalization or improvement of testosterone levels in all three patients with symptomatic improvement in one patient. First pass metabolism of orally administered oxandrolone may decrease hepatic synthesis of SHBG, allowing exogenously supplied testosterone to be excreted. Further work is necessary to elucidate the relationship.


so suppressing SHBG to much is not really a good thing..... at least in this paradigm

 

[bigoso]

yes. but dont want to say with certainty that your issue is central/glandular (though it may very well be). eg. letrozole is indicated in variocele, and it is definitely more potent.

but there may be other factors at work, other than tissue of aromatase production. though more likely than not, regardless of the source of aromatase, letrozole should make an impact (particularly at that dose).


do wish that you had gotten test and SHBG test, that might be very telling... high level SHBG suppression could also cause your issues (EVEN WITH HIGH DOSE TEST, you could have low plasma test and elevated E... when its not so late will explain the underpinnings of that scenario)-- though will post up a study that kind of "discovered" this issue...

1: J Sex Med. 2008 Jan;5(1):241-7. Epub 2007 Oct 24. Links
Low sex hormone-binding globulin and testosterone levels in association with erectile dysfunction among human immunodeficiency virus-infected men receiving testosterone and oxandrolone.Wasserman P, Segal-Maurer S, Rubin D.
Infectious Disease Division, Department of Medicine--New York Hospital Queens, Flushing, NY, USA. [email protected]

INTRODUCTION: Men with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) wasting and hypogonadism are frequently treated with testosterone and oxandrolone, an orally administered anabolic-androgenic steroid hormone. We observed reductions in testosterone and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels, in association with complaints of erectile dysfunction, after prolonged exposure to this therapeutic regimen. AIM: First description of an association between long-term receipt of oxandrolone with erectile dysfunction, low SHBG and testosterone. METHODS: Case report of three human immunodeficiency virus-infected hypogonadal male patients receiving treatment for wasting syndrome and hypogonadism, and highly active antiretroviral therapy. All three patients received long-term oxandrolone in addition to testosterone replacement therapy. RESULTS: Testosterone and SHBG levels for patients 1, 2, and 3, respectively: total testosterone 183, 71, and 151 ng/dL (260-1,000 ng/dL); free testosterone (not done for patient 3) 58.3 and 26.9 pg/mL (50-210 pg/mL); SHBG 6, 9, and 6 nmol/L (7-50 nmol/L). No other hormonal abnormalities were detected. Following discontinuation of oxandrolone, levels of total testosterone rose, consistent with increase in SHBG. One patient received repeat SHBG assay documenting rise in SHBG level. Patient 2 reported return of libido and early morning erections several weeks after discontinuation of oxandrolone. CONCLUSIONS: Patients had erectile dysfunction in association with low testosterone and SHBG, in spite of exogenous testosterone replacement. Discontinuation of oxandrolone led to the normalization or improvement of testosterone levels in all three patients with symptomatic improvement in one patient. First pass metabolism of orally administered oxandrolone may decrease hepatic synthesis of SHBG, allowing exogenously supplied testosterone to be excreted. Further work is necessary to elucidate the relationship.


so suppressing SHBG to much is not really a good thing..... at least in this paradigm

interesting...like I said thanks for all your help...don't know if you missed it from before but on the original test from weeks ago my serum T was 3742..never tested the SHBG.....haven't had any ED issues

 

[bigoso]

OK...I feel obligated to update you guys after all the help I got from Macro here. First I wanna say RS is the real deal....ordered some femara after I figured for whatever reason aromasin doesn't work for me...I didn't have the money to spend on yet more bloodwork but I can say with relative certainty it did it's job. Within weeks the edema/bloat was pretty much gone and the weight began falling off....in the 2-3 weeks I had left on femara with no dietary changes I dropped damn near 30lbs. Downside was I ended up losing some size because I had to drop my cals so low battling the original super high estro levels. I know for next time it's only adex or femara for me....here's a pic for you guys

 

[machola]

i was puffy on exemestane at 25mg/day. but 0.25mg/day (1/10th of a tab)letro keeps me dry

 

[Macro]

i was puffy on exemestane at 25mg/day. but 0.25mg/day (1/10th of a tab)letro keeps me dry

it is this way for some, usually those who produce high central/glandular aromatase.


note- were you taking exemestane with a high fat meal (makes up to a 40% difference in plasma uptake)?

 

[machola]

it is this way for some, usually those who produce high central/glandular aromatase.


note- were you taking exemestane with a high fat meal (makes up to a 40% difference in plasma uptake)?

yea i figured i'm just one of the unlucky ones... i was taking it with breakfast which was 8 eggs or so.

 

[Macro]

you might want to check to make sure that you dont have a variocele, like bigoso

not likely, but more likely because of response to exemestane