EXCELLENT CASE STUDY OF 4 BODYBUILDERS USING STEROIDS FOR MANY YEARS

[maldorf]

Thank you! I agree 100% but people want there hand held and walked through life.

Everyone should be getting bloodwork twice a year even off AAS just for general health.Now reading bloodwork is not rocket science as it has a range right on the results and flags high readings with "high" written. If you are using and things arent right,MAKE THE CHANGES TO CORRECT IT,if you are not smart enough or motivated enough to become educated on the subject YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING!

Even the best doctors say you have to be your own doctor to a certain extent.Your health is in your hands.Your Doctor can guide you and point you in the right direction,but it is up to you day in and day out.I have really learned this being diabetic.

You make a strong point about people being lazy and not working hard enough to learn. the problem is many people are very busy in life and dont care to spend the time, but they choose to use AAS. I think for the average Joe it is important to be monitored by a licensed doctor. Even the most educated people though arent able to fully diagnose themselves. Even doctors are required to go to another doctor if they want a prescription. They cant legally right their own. I have 3 doctors in our family, so Imnot niave. One relative is retired now and works for Blue Cross Blue Shield in claims. I think there is a good reason that doctors arent allowed to self prescribe, and if they arent seen fit to do it then how the hell do you think an average guy on here is ?

 

[kid1dakota]

I think there is a good reason that doctors arent allowed to self prescribe, and if they arent seen fit to do it then how the hell do you think an average guy on here is ?

That is more to stop abuse of narcotics.unfortunately many have become addicted themselves.It is not so much they "arent seen fit"

Again Maldorf I am not suggesting anyone self diagnose as I already told you in the other thread.
I am more saying if you are doing a compound be monitoring yourself and if it is doing harm ,stop! you need a doctor to tell you that? If so you arent cut out for this.

 

[maldorf]

That is more to stop abuse of narcotics.unfortunately many have become addicted themselves.It is not so much they "arent seen fit"

Again Maldorf I am not suggesting anyone self diagnose as I already told you in the other thread.
I am more saying if you are doing a compound be monitoring yourself and if it is doing harm ,stop! you need a doctor to tell you that? If so you arent cut out for this.

The big problem is that a lot of guys get so into it that they are in denial. Those of us that had medical problems can speak to that. SOmetimes you need a professional helping you to make the right decision, even if you know its true. People are biased when looking at themselves. it is too hard to be totally objective about yourself without having some bias. I think that is the main reason docs arent supposed to treat themselves.

 

[Ivan]

Back to clotting

Ok I am a little confused here -- I was always under the impression that AAS actually hindered clotting, and this is why if an aas user was to have surgery or has an open, bleeding wound they would be more at risk to bleed out?

 

[maldorf]

Ok I am a little confused here -- I was always under the impression that AAS actually hindered clotting, and this is why if an aas user was to have surgery or has an open, bleeding wound they would be more at risk to bleed out?

I used to think that too, but its not the case. Im not sure why I was under that impression before. I think I read it on anabolic review once,lol. Do some googling and youll see that they increase the chances of clots. All of my doctors confirmed this. Cardiologists, hematologist, endo, family doc. I grilled them all for hours.

 

[maldorf]

Ok I am a little confused here -- I was always under the impression that AAS actually hindered clotting, and this is why if an aas user was to have surgery or has an open, bleeding wound they would be more at risk to bleed out?

I think too that it might be a bad idea to be on AAS during a surgery because getting a clot can happen anyways during the procedure and youd only be increasing the chances that much more.

 

[jalsmiley]

whether or not the study you posted has any merit who cares...this thread turned out to be very good either way good discussion guys

 

[Ivan]

a myth huh?

Just another one of those little myths huh? Damn I hate that! I remember vividly when I would get a cut or bloody nose while I was "on" and worrying like hell that it would not stop bleeding and so forth. Yeah this info actually used to be in all the old aas books, and perhaps even some medical books? I will have to check. So without a doubt, it causes the RBC to go up thus likening the chance of a clot yes? I suppose then; that boldenone and oxymethelone must be double that risk?

 

[jalsmiley]

Just another one of those little myths huh? Damn I hate that! I remember vividly when I would get a cut or bloody nose while I was "on" and worrying like hell that it would not stop bleeding and so forth. Yeah this info actually used to be in all the old aas books, and perhaps even some medical books? I will have to check. So without a doubt, it causes the RBC to go up thus likening the chance of a clot yes? I suppose then; that boldenone and oxymethelone must be double that risk?

drols def! their original use was for anemia right?

 

[maldorf]

drols def! their original use was for anemia right?

Yes, they increase your hematocrit. Other AAS do too, but I guess those have a stronger impact i duuno. this will make your blood thicker. AAS also affect the coltting cascade as I described above. That is very important.

 

[Ivan]

ok

So what is a normal % in an athlete (not using AAS) The hematocrit that is?

See I thought this was the whole point of "blood doping" using EPO to up this level which would = an increased # of rbc's = an increase in oxygen...?

 

[maldorf]

So what is a normal % in an athlete (not using AAS) The hematocrit that is?

See I thought this was the whole point of "blood doping" using EPO to up this level which would = an increased # of rbc's = an increase in oxygen...?

Average I believe is in the mid 40s or so, around there.

Yeah with blood doping you get more oxygen packed into a unit of blood because each hemoglobin molecule I think carries 4 Oxygen molecules, something like that. So your endurance should go up. Only problem is if it gets too high your blood gets too thick and your heart has to labor to pump it. This can lead to dilation of the ventricles if it goes on too long, The heart has to work hard. In this case, your endurance will actually go down. I know guys feel it when they are on tren or EQ/Deca. Those raise the HCT. I think at least part of that loss of endurance is due to that. Some runners and cyclists will die during the race because of dehydration. When you lose water in your plasma, the concentration of the rbcs, hematocrit, will go up quite a bit.

I think the biggest factor though in getting blood clots on AAS is how they affect the clotting cascade. See some posts I made above for that.

 

[Ivan]

yeah I saw that on the clotting cascade. Scared me.

Well for me personally, I LOVED the way I felt on EQ. I was vascular as I had ever been, and my endurance was top-knotch. Perhaps there is a falloff point where the risks simply outweigh the benefits. But you are a factor 5 right? What about you Pekkerwood?

 

[maldorf]

Well for me personally, I LOVED the way I felt on EQ. I was vascular as I had ever been, and my endurance was top-knotch. Perhaps there is a falloff point where the risks simply outweigh the benefits. But you are a factor 5 right? What about you Pekkerwood?

Im factor 2, Emeric is factor 5. Those are part of that clotting cascade and dont have much to do with hematocrit really.
I dont think Pekkerwood has a clotting disorder at all, he never got a clot. He had the cardiomyopathy though.
EQ will raise your HCT and you do feel good for awhile. I think its the point where your hct gets too high though that you feel sluggish.SO yeah, eventually the side effects outweigh the benefit. The high hct becomes a danger and hold you back in the gym actually because your heart has to work so damn hard.

 

[jalsmiley]

Im factor 2, Emeric is factor 5. Those are part of that clotting cascade and dont have much to do with hematocrit really.
I dont think Pekkerwood has a clotting disorder at all, he never got a clot. He had the cardiomyopathy though.
EQ will raise your HCT and you do feel good for awhile. I think its the point where your hct gets too high though that you feel sluggish.SO yeah, eventually the side effects outweigh the benefit. The high hct becomes a danger and hold you back in the gym actually because your heart has to work so damn hard.

my last blood test my rbc had just hit high range...i was on the top of the range exactly, time to drain some blood soon!

 

[maldorf]

Good article on hematocrit thats says things a lot better than me!

PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling

Quote from this article:

"Why is a high hematocrit dangerous? A greater fraction of solids in the blood means that the blood is thicker and more difficult to pump throughout the body. Think of putting super thick motor oil in your car and the strain that might put on your engine. Similarly, a high hematocrit puts a lot of strain on your heart and blood vessels, especially when it’s working hard in training or racing. This can lead to heart attacks or strokes. Remember all the young and elite cyclists dropping dead of heart attacks in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s?

Do blood volume and hematocrit change with training? They do, but it’s not a dramatic change and not the prime reason for increased endurance capacity with training. That’s why an overly high hematocrit is so unusual and an easy indirect marker of blood manipulation."

 

[Pekkerwood]

Ivan:

I do not have clotting issues. Also during the catheter procedure looking for "hidden" problems, he said my arteries were very good. I did tend to get my hematocrit out of range after more than a month on any amount of test over 100mg per week. At 100 I stay in range, but barely. It would be healthier if mine were lower because of my issues.

I don't know what other gear attibuted to this rise as I have never done a cycle without a test base. Even with HRT now, I have to really watch my hematocrit. I get tested each quarter.

I only used eq twice over the last 25 years. I really don't know why. I went through Winny stages when I was younger and used it a lot. For the last ten years I primarily used Tren and Test. I occasionly used Dbol and Deca but it was rare. I added GH only months before my problem.

I will having hip replacement surgery in a few months and I have to give quite a bit of blood from six weeks to a month b4 surgery, as most need a transfusion, so i am looking to drop down to 50mg a week HRT or even stop for a while. Clotting is a major issue, as is infection. Breaking the skin barrier needlessly increases the risk of bacteria entering the body. I think if I remain on TRT I will switch to creme.

 

[rhinofight]

Average I believe is in the mid 40s or so, around there.

Yeah with blood doping you get more oxygen packed into a unit of blood because each hemoglobin molecule I think carries 4 Oxygen molecules, something like that. So your endurance should go up. Only problem is if it gets too high your blood gets too thick and your heart has to labor to pump it. This can lead to dilation of the ventricles if it goes on too long, The heart has to work hard. In this case, your endurance will actually go down. I know guys feel it when they are on tren or EQ/Deca. Those raise the HCT. I think at least part of that loss of endurance is due to that. Some runners and cyclists will die during the race because of dehydration. When you lose water in your plasma, the concentration of the rbcs, hematocrit, will go up quite a bit.

I think the biggest factor though in getting blood clots on AAS is how they affect the clotting cascade. See some posts I made above for that.

For a steroid to raise your crit enough to be considered significant, i think the dosage has to be high enough that the water weight alone will negate any endurance benefit. Steroids above a certain low dose will decrease your VO2 max. When's the last time you saw a juiced out guy with good endurance? Only low dose test and maybe something else will help with sustainable power output, and this isn't crit related. This is why endurance athletes use EPO for endurance and low dose test/gh for recovery. Just my opinion formed from my own experience and from talking with elite cyclists.

 

[Ivan]

I have had a change of "heart" when it comes to

certain compounds now. You see, when I would see people posting about getting their blood drawn, I would tell them the dangers have been exaggerated and there is no need to. Well, I love EQ. And deca. Damn. I know that they cause the kidneys to excrete epo, but I always loved both of these compounds. However I do not want to put my self to more risk as Pekkerwood already mentioned his levels got raised on hrt doses of test alone!

I guess my last question on this would be: even if someone were to draw their blood, wouldn't that only affect the volume? In other words, the hematocrit % would still be the same right? Or is it because by taking out blood, it is still reducing the overall value?

 

[maldorf]

certain compounds now. You see, when I would see people posting about getting their blood drawn, I would tell them the dangers have been exaggerated and there is no need to. Well, I love EQ. And deca. Damn. I know that they cause the kidneys to excrete epo, but I always loved both of these compounds. However I do not want to put my self to more risk as Pekkerwood already mentioned his levels got raised on hrt doses of test alone!

I guess my last question on this would be: even if someone were to draw their blood, wouldn't that only affect the volume? In other words, the hematocrit % would still be the same right? Or is it because by taking out blood, it is still reducing the overall value?

Yeah, deca and eq are supposed to be the worst for raising hct. I too have trouble keeping my hct down now even on just HRT dose of 120 mg/wk. mine has been right at 53 now and thats the highest it should be to be considered "normal". I really think the being on something long term is what gets the HCT up. If you stay on something long enough, even a low dose will screw up your HCT. Thats why I cant understand why some guys are "cruising" on 500 mg/wk.

When you give blood, sure your HCT will stay the same even after the blood is taken. This changes though after some time passes because the body adds water or plasma back into your blood to regain the balance back to what your blood volume used to be before they took your blood. I think it is just 48 hrs or so that your blood volume gets back to what is used to be. At this point then the particles in your blood like rbcs are "diluted" or spread out since you have added just fluid and no more rbcs. So your hct will be down within 48 hrs or less.

One way you can reduce your hct the day that you give blood is by giving a double red donation. when they do that they take 2x the rbcs! the take the rbcs but pump back in your own plasma and I think they even add in fluid to take the place of the volume of rbcs that you gave. it works something like that.

Another thing nobody talks about is how the AAS increase chances of clotting by influencing the clotting cascade. This is what got me. Again, my HCT was low normal the day I had my clot/heart attack.