New study: Free-Weight and Machine-Based Training Are Equally Effective on Strength and Hypertrophy

[aHarness]

many people load hammer chest press machines with 4-5 plates and have small chests but you don't see people bench pressing 4+ plates for reps with good form with small chests.

Surely you are aware it doesn’t take as much strength to, say, incline 4 on the hammer strength machine as it does to incline press 4 plates on a barbell… kind of a silly comparison.

But either way, anyone can move weight with any given movement but if they aren’t executing it properly they won’t get the response in growth they are looking for.

 

[KillerStack]

Are there even any people who don't use plenty of machines? I mean people who are at least partially interested in some hypertrophy/looks. Many bodybuilders talk about the importance of free weights but in reality it's mostly machines lol. Reminds me of what someone wrote about Cutler before, how he says he basically never went to failure in his entire career. In reality much of the training is to some kind of failure point.

 

[qbkilla]

Are there even any people who don't use plenty of machines? I mean people who are at least partially interested in some hypertrophy/looks. Many bodybuilders talk about the importance of free weights but in reality it's mostly machines lol. Reminds me of what someone wrote about Cutler before, how he says he basically never went to failure in his entire career. In reality much of the training is to some kind of failure point.

I'd say from what I see in gyms most people use both. The mentality "machines are for pussys" isn't really held anymore. Only machines I see collecting dust are calf machines, triceps horizontal push, and bicep curl machine where it's down by your side. For the calf machines, I rarley see people train calves period. Reverse pec deck is always taken and seem like preacher curl machine are hit or miss. Shitty ones you don't feel w squeeze get ignored but if the gym has a good one it gets traffic. Pullover machine collects dust too yet I see people doing lat preyers.

 

[juggy38]

I’d say, if barbells didn’t exist, all I’d miss are a heavy hip hinge.

I’m not sure howd to replace it. I guess MORE leg curls and glute bridges?

 

[275bills]

I’d say, if barbells didn’t exist, all I’d miss are a heavy hip hinge.

I’m not sure howd to replace it. I guess MORE leg curls and glute bridges?

Are you talking a stiff style deadlift?

You can use cable or machines for that to

 

[CorgisOnTren]

Are you talking a stiff style deadlift?

You can use cable or machines for that to

I’ve never had a chance to try it, but I’ve heard SLDL on the pitshark is pretty awesome.

 

[275bills]

sam sulek does them in between 2 cable stacks, standing on a bench

 

[danieltx]

I’d say, if barbells didn’t exist, all I’d miss are a heavy hip hinge.

I’m not sure howd to replace it. I guess MORE leg curls and glute bridges?

Smith SLDL, Smith RDL, Smith good morning, Smith glute bridge, cable SLDL, cable RDL, those same things on a belt squat. There are tons of possibilities.

Open your mind and stop thinking in terms of exercises - think of stressing the muscle through a given plane and find a way to make that happen.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Surely you are aware it doesn’t take as much strength to, say, incline 4 on the hammer strength machine as it does to incline press 4 plates on a barbell… kind of a silly comparison.

But either way, anyone can move weight with any given movement but if they aren’t executing it properly they won’t get the response in growth they are looking for.

I get your point. But there are literally tons of PLers with shitty chests and legs compared to their BBing counterparts. I’m saying this as a former PLer.

 

[Mufasa123]

One thing I'd caution people on is reading only the abstract. While this isn't my field I've read an Uber shit ton of research that looked good in brief (as this one does) but once the full paper and methodology were examined was a steaming pile of dog shit and effectively worthless.

Case in point some of the top academics in a field got a paper published in the major journal concluding their long held theory was correct (Call it B) and that the alternative theory was false as they proved it (Call it A). Sounds awesome and very reputable...yeah well a cursory skim of the study showed that they proved NOT A but unfortunately A and B aren't mutually exclusive so in no way shape or form did they prove B nor had they ever as it remains a theory. In NOT A I could suggest any number of other drivers off the top of my head. Suffice to say if I had submitted that paper it would have NEVER been published in that or any other journal and I'd be openly laughed at like a dumb ass - deservedly so.

A lot of academics like their pet theories and set up studies with the specific goal of proving them as opposed to being unbiased and finding truth (though they manage to write their short form abstracts and conclusions resembling that). Hard to get completely out of this with the human mind but you try and that's why we peer review as well though all that fell to garbage in my example.

Anyway it helps to read the full study. I believe zero of what I read in those short descriptions. I've seen far too much BS in all fields and I hate to say it but exercise science is renown for that bullshit, lacking controls (super hard admittedly), and tiny samples of often flawed individuals (looking for increased incidence of spinal injury in a population using a sample of humans who all presented initially with homogenous long term back pain, no shit right) - availability of humans is another issue here.

The best stuff in the field was Soviet and Eastern Block as they had tight controls and population but all was geared to sport and performance or strength. They didn't care about bodybuilding or aesthetics. They were trying to make athletes better and win on the world platform.

Not espousing a view one way or the other on this but hopefully helpful as this is the equivalent to judging a "book by its cover".

 

[alfresco]

Over 50 years ago anybody who trained on machines was called a fool . . . or worse. Companies producing free weights and associated equipment spent millions of dollars trying to discredit the results, the results being worth than worthless, impossible to achieve as barbells and dumbbells being far superior to anything past, present or future.

Now the so called value of ‘machines’ is said to exceed anything on the planet earth, and impossible to enter any gym on the planet earth without their value being judged solely by the number and variety of exercise machines.

Could go on and on but don’t want to bore everybody.

My Oh My how far we have come.

 

[aHarness]

I get your point. But there are literally tons of PLers with shitty chests and legs compared to their BBing counterparts. I’m saying this as a former PLer.

Oh totally. I agree completely, and that goes along with my point. Goes to show that stating “people are moving X weight with Y machine and have small chests” means nothing, because it’s all about the intent behind the movement. Are they just forcing the weight from A to B at all cost, or truly engaging the target muscles and focusing on execution? Good tempo, controlling the weight, squeezing, proper mind muscle connection etc

 

[KillerStack]

Oh totally. I agree completely, and that goes along with my point. Goes to show that stating “people are moving X weight with Y machine and have small chests” means nothing, because it’s all about the intent behind the movement. Are they just forcing the weight from A to B at all cost, or truly engaging the target muscles and focusing on execution? Good tempo, controlling the weight, squeezing, proper mind muscle connection etc

How much does intent change execution, and therefore muscle engagement on a machine? Like if you are pretty well locked in, can't really use "the wrong muscle" right? Well you can to an extent if you manage to contort the body in various small ways, but "A to B" can work perfectly. I'm thinking of Jordan Peters. I'm not in his brain but the way he does his movements he isn't really "squeezing" anything, it's just A to B with 100% effort while keeping everything attached at the end. I think you have to actually think a bit like a PLer when training like this, think "go with everything at once," everything in your body must be tight at the same time to make it. The exact moment I start squeezing an individual muscle to find the connection I lose 50% of my strength and what happens to muscle engagement then? Do a Hammer press, think that you're squeezing the weight up with the pectorals and slightly disassociating mentally from the elbows and hands and see. I see your point too, but I've thought about this a lot so I have some nuance lol. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what we are feeling in the muscle is maybe overrated.

I'm thinking of Charles Glass, now here's a guy who will use a machine the wrong way if at all possible lol. Just use it as it's designed, you don't have to sit on your side on leg presses lol.

Look at any of JP's lifts, is it totally different from a PLer because he's bodybuilder? Well if there's a difference maybe it's that the bodybuilder trains heavier and harder lol.

 

[qbkilla]

I'd be interested if there are any studies on machines vs non machine cardio. Walking/running vs elliptical/treadmill. I've found walking regularly has helped me feel better than doing indoor gym cardio, gives me more energy throughout the day. Maybe the mental effect of being outdoors or placebo dunno.

 

[aHarness]

How much does intent change execution, and therefore muscle engagement on a machine? Like if you are pretty well locked in, can't really use "the wrong muscle" right?

I’m my experience, quite a lot. There’s a difference between just using the right muscle, and maximizing the movement to stimulate it as much as possible.

it's just A to B with 100% effort while keeping everything attached at the end.

I would say it’s very unlikely JP is just “moving the weight A to B”, but like you I’m not in his head

The exact moment I start squeezing an individual muscle to find the connection I lose 50% of my strength and what happens to muscle engagement then?

then I would say you’re getting more out of less weight by focusing on the target muscle more, personally.

Everyone’s different though. I have personally made my best progress by focusing less on the weight used and more on the feel of the muscle, and making sure I take the MUSCLE to failure and not just the movement to failure.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

Like if a small tree fell on you, you would have to press it off
or if your friend was falling over a cliff and you had to grab his hand to save him and bicep curl him back up

you know, just random everyday type stuff

I don't worry about that stuff. My wife's boyfriend is a Fireman and will save us.