O/T: Learning a second language

biffnbash · Mar 27, 2015

I learnt Japanese in dojos and bars.... but much more from the later, I would just start talking to anyone sitting beside me

Mike28 · Mar 27, 2015

Fast Dick said:
Mike, is there any one language amongst the chinese that is more common than others? What would an asian in america be most likely to speak (besides english).

Also after reading more about Mandarin, Im beginning to think maybe I should try learning Japanese instead. Their culture seems more fitting for me anyway.

Mandarin is the official language in China and Taiwan. So you could say that it is the most common form of Chinese. That being said, People from Hong Kong speak Cantonese and there are thousands of other dialects throughout China that are completely different than Mandarin. They are like totally different languages. I have noticed many times in China towns different dialects are spoken.

Japanese would be hard as well bc it also uses Chinese characters. You really have to immerse yourself, study hours a day, and practice everyday. I don't think Japanese has tones like Chinese, but I think the grammar is pretty difficult.

Basically you need a lot of time. Not saying you can't do it, just know that it is very time intensive.

Fast Dick · Mar 27, 2015

Thanks Mike. I realize both languages would be hard and very time consuming for me to learn. Thats not an issue.

I found this chart on Wikipedia, which claims there are far fewer people in the us that speak japanese than chinese. However, the chart doesnt specify what percentage of those chinese speakers use specifically Mandarin. Either way, I thought it was interesting so I thought Id share it.

English – 229 million
Spanish – 35 million
Chinese – 2.6 million + (mainly Mandarin speakers, and speakers of Yue dialects such as Cantonese and Taishanese, and other Chinese dialects)
Tagalog – 1.5 million + (Most Filipinos may also know other Philippine languages, e.g. Ilokano, Pangasinan, Bikol languages, and Visayan languages.)
French – 1.3 million
Vietnamese – 1.3 million
German – 1.1 million (High German) + German dialects like Pennsylvania German, Hutterite German, Plautdietsch, Texas German
Korean – 1.0 million
Russian – 881,000
Arabic – 845,000
Italian – 754,000
Portuguese – 731,000
French Creole – 659,000
Polish – 594,000
Hindi – 561,000
Japanese – 445,000
Persian – 397,000
Urdu – 356,000
Gujarati – 341,000
Greek – 326,000
Serbo-Croatian – 269,000
Armenian – 243,000
Hebrew – 222,000
Cambodian – 202,000
Hmong - 193,179
Navajo – 169,009
Thai - 152,679
Yiddish - 148,155
Laotian - 146,297

ThinkTank · Mar 27, 2015

I don't know what it is about kids that allow them to learn languages easier.

My young daughter has self taught some Japanese, and sounds quite convincing. She has mentioned that French will likely be the language she pursues in school. School only offers Spanish, French, and Mandarin.

My son has been taking Mandarin for 2.5 years. He will graduate HS with almost 6 years of Mandarin. Luckily for him he is visiting China during the Easter break. I am envious as we did not have these opportunities when we were kids.

m dub · Mar 27, 2015

Fast Dick said:
Im beginning to think maybe I should try learning Japanese instead. Their culture seems more fitting for me anyway.

It took me three years of formal schooling and a full year in Japan to become fluent (speaking, reading and writing). Immersion is definitely the way to go.

Good Luck!

Fast Dick · Mar 29, 2015

Think Im going to begin learning japanese instead. Their culture is more appealing to me. Plus the women love big guys. Atleast thats what I hear.

EURO FREAK · Mar 30, 2015

You should research Stephen Krashen's work on 2nd language acquisition. Basically you can only learn a 2nd language with comprehensible input. I speak excellent Chinese and French. So good, people assume I've lived there or grew up there. How? Many many years ago I failed at learning languages. I then researched the "method to learning" and found that Krashen guy.

Then I came across a guy called Steven Kaufmann who is a polyglot that spoke 15 languages or something. He has videos on youtube. Then he made a website called lingq.com and allows you to learn through listening and reading.

You can only learn to speak if you know how to understand, and you can only understand if you learn vocab. and lots of it. I didn't even speak for the first year of learning. Just pure reading and listening. And within a week I was pretty fluent because I had all the words in my head and they were automatic without translations. Just repeat and repeat.

If you look up all the polyglots on youtube, Luca, Richard, Steve etc... all the ones that speak 10+ languages... they have a consistent approach amongst themselves and they all do it through reading / listening first and then when they speak... they all sound good because they know all the vocab and have internalized all the words (absorbed it).

if you simply do it the hacking way of talking to natives... firstly, they will simply just speak back in english or speak baby level versions of their language. You'll never get it because you don't have an association for the meaning of the word and even in context, you haven't heard the word frequently enough to have it internalized.

I'm also an active member on howtolearnanylanguage.com and many people talk of the methods that work and don't work.

lastly... classes DO NOT WORK. waste of time. shit like alliance francaise... such a joke. Never saw one person come out of there fluent and then they always say to go to that country... I can tell you I was already fluent and spoke at an excellent level without even having access to the country or a native speaker in real life. I would only practice now and then via skype but did daily 4 hours of listening!

Mike28 · Mar 30, 2015

EURO FREAK said:
You should research Stephen Krashen's work on 2nd language acquisition. Basically you can only learn a 2nd language with comprehensible input. I speak excellent Chinese and French. So good, people assume I've lived there or grew up there. How? Many many years ago I failed at learning languages. I then researched the "method to learning" and found that Krashen guy.

Then I came across a guy called Steven Kaufmann who is a polyglot that spoke 15 languages or something. He has videos on youtube. Then he made a website called lingq.com and allows you to learn through listening and reading.

You can only learn to speak if you know how to understand, and you can only understand if you learn vocab. and lots of it. I didn't even speak for the first year of learning. Just pure reading and listening. And within a week I was pretty fluent because I had all the words in my head and they were automatic without translations. Just repeat and repeat.

If you look up all the polyglots on youtube, Luca, Richard, Steve etc... all the ones that speak 10+ languages... they have a consistent approach amongst themselves and they all do it through reading / listening first and then when they speak... they all sound good because they know all the vocab and have internalized all the words (absorbed it).

if you simply do it the hacking way of talking to natives... firstly, they will simply just speak back in english or speak baby level versions of their language. You'll never get it because you don't have an association for the meaning of the word and even in context, you haven't heard the word frequently enough to have it internalized.

I'm also an active member on howtolearnanylanguage.com and many people talk of the methods that work and don't work.

lastly... classes DO NOT WORK. waste of time. shit like alliance francaise... such a joke. Never saw one person come out of there fluent and then they always say to go to that country... I can tell you I was already fluent and spoke at an excellent level without even having access to the country or a native speaker in real life. I would only practice now and then via skype but did daily 4 hours of listening!

Doesn't sound right to me. I highly doubt your claims that you were fluent in Chinese in a week and you are fluent in Chinese without going to a Chinese speaking country. Sounds like an advertisement. I don't believe it.

EURO FREAK · Mar 30, 2015

Mike28 said:
Doesn't sound right to me. I highly doubt your claims that you were fluent in Chinese in a week and you are fluent in Chinese without going to a Chinese speaking country. Sounds like an advertisement. I don't believe it.

Advertising what? A lecturer called Stephen krashen ? I don't even learnt a language in 5 years. Seriously be more open minded. Your failure doesn't mean others fail.

Especially I never said a week... From nothing. I spent a year of nonstop input learning many hours per day! Don't be a hater for your inability to learn languages... In European countries everyone speaks 2 or 3! Then I wonder why Americans go about wondering why they are monolingual speakers.. Because you think learning comes from class room time and tests.

Do your research.... To think you think I'm advertising a language learning lecturer and a method that I used which works... Please....

You can see on YouTube guys like laushu, Benny the Irish polyglot and countless others like luca who have mastered languages? Why can they and others fail? It's the Damn method! Not the talent of someone!

Again... Advertising a language method... Lol

Many people and I'm assuming yourself can never figure out why some learn and some don't. Always think it's talent or just needing to go to that country. I know many people in my country who lived here for 50 years and don't even know a single word of the local language

EURO FREAK · Mar 30, 2015

Mike28 said:
Doesn't sound right to me. I highly doubt your claims that you were fluent in Chinese in a week and you are fluent in Chinese without going to a Chinese speaking country. Sounds like an advertisement. I don't believe it.

Now look at these guys:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAtWuQmdexs"]Hyperpolyglot - Polyglot and Multilingual Ambassador speaks in 16 languages - YouTube[/ame]

He speaks 16 languages... you think he lived in 16 countries? He has native accent in ALL 16 languages! NATIVE

Here is that Steven Kaufmann guy and Luca guy speaking Chinese.... they both speak 10+ languages each! you can see they all have excellent fluency and accent ....

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_k2MyaTRaI"]通晓多国语言会话: #8 汉语 & Luca and Steve close in English - YouTube[/ame]

Here is Luca speaking Japanese, Polish, Swedish, French, Portuguese ... what in under a year for Japanese... sounds damn good to me:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t4Td_AZOMM"]How languages have changed my life (in Japanese, Polish, Swedish, French, Portuguese) - YouTube[/ame]

Mike28 · Mar 30, 2015

EURO FREAK said:
Now look at these guys:

Hyperpolyglot - Polyglot and Multilingual Ambassador speaks in 16 languages - YouTube

He speaks 16 languages... you think he lived in 16 countries? He has native accent in ALL 16 languages! NATIVE

Here is that Steven Kaufmann guy and Luca guy speaking Chinese.... they both speak 10+ languages each! you can see they all have excellent fluency and accent ....

通晓多国语言会话: #8 汉语 & Luca and Steve close in English - YouTube

Here is Luca speaking Japanese, Polish, Swedish, French, Portuguese ... what in under a year for Japanese... sounds damn good to me:

How languages have changed my life (in Japanese, Polish, Swedish, French, Portuguese) - YouTube

You claimed to be pretty fluent in a week. Go back and read your post. Not sure what this has to do with America and Europe by I can tell by your name you probably are overly proud of Europe and hold a grudge against the US. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

There might be a person that can learn Chinese in a year without living there, but that would be extremely rare. He would be gifted in the same way professional bbs have great genetics.

You are definitely not fluent in Chinese within a year of learning it in your home country.

GymDudeVA · Mar 30, 2015

I became quite fluent in French as an adolescent/adult (in traditional classroom settings with brief stays with French families and in France), I've taught French, and tried to teach my ex French. Here are some random observations:

1. My ex was using Rosetta Stone (in addition to a little instruction from me). I don't like it. I don't see how anybody can gain real fluency with it. It may be OK for stumbling through, but it's not real language a acquisition.

2. As discussed above, it takes years to become proficient, and many more to become fluent. That is if you have exposure/practice/class at least several times a week. You need small steps over time. Cramming it all in in a few months won't do it.

3. Sorry, but you HAVE to learn grammar and verb conjugation. That's the glue holding it all together. Yeah, it's fun to learn vocabulary words but that is not what leads to real proficiency.

4. You're going to get it wrong. Again and again and again. You learn from your mistakes. You have to stumble through, then fail better next time. It's a long painful process that few have the patience for.

5. Practice practice practrice. This is not like learning history or math. It's more like music; an ART that takes lots of experience to master. I can teach you how to make all the notes on a trombone, exactly how the music should sound, everything. Will you be able pick it up and play Ravel? Or anything even?

6. As also touched on above, I have met so many people who claim to "speak" a language when in reality they can count to 10 and know 5 verbs.

Mike28 · Mar 30, 2015

GymDudeVA said:
I became quite fluent in French as an adolescent/adult (in traditional classroom settings with brief stays with French families and in France), I've taught French, and tried to teach my ex French. Here are some random observations:

1. My ex was using Rosetta Stone (in addition to a little instruction from me). I don't like it. I don't see how anybody can gain real fluency with it. It may be OK for stumbling through, but it's not real language a acquisition.

2. As discussed above, it takes years to become proficient, and many more to become fluent. That is if you have exposure/practice/class at least several times a week. You need small steps over time. Cramming it all in in a few months won't do it.

3. Sorry, but you HAVE to learn grammar and verb conjugation. That's the glue holding it all together. Yeah, it's fun to learn vocabulary words but that is not what leads to real proficiency.

4. You're going to get it wrong. Again and again and again. You learn from your mistakes. You have to stumble through, then fail better next time. It's a long painful process that few have the patience for.

5. Practice practice practrice. This is not like learning history or math. It's more like music; an ART that takes lots of experience to master. I can teach you how to make all the notes on a trombone, exactly how the music should sound, everything. Will you be able pick it up and play Ravel? Or anything even?

6. As also touched on above, I have met so many people who claim to "speak" a language when in reality they can count to 10 and know 5 verbs.

Great post. Completely agree. Luckily Chinese originally didn't have grammar and there is no verb conjugation. That being said, it is still just as hard.

EURO FREAK · Mar 30, 2015

Mike28 said:
You claimed to be pretty fluent in a week. Go back and read your post. Not sure what this has to do with America and Europe by I can tell by your name you probably are overly proud of Europe and hold a grudge against the US. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

There might be a person that can learn Chinese in a year without living there, but that would be extremely rare. He would be gifted in the same way professional bbs have great genetics.

You are definitely not fluent in Chinese within a year of learning it in your home country.

I said "I didn't even speak for the first year of learning. Just pure reading and listening. And within a week I was pretty fluent because I had all the words in my head and they were automatic without translations. Just repeat and repeat."

Pretty fluent... I said... I didn't say ADVANCED native, proficient and able to conduct business meetings. Anyway.. I'll put up a video at the end which Steven Kaufmann explains fluency and how to get there....

Day zero to day 365... ONLY LISTENING< READING and UNDERSTANDING
day 365 + 1 week... could already speak fluently.

This is NORMAL. I know guys who can speak fluent languages in under 6 months.

Look up benny the polyglot and he can speak in 3 months.

You can contact me in PM and we'll have a Skype chat if you want to hear my FLUENCY in Chinese and French. Yes, I'll throw in English too!

The reason why americans fail to learn languages

1) trying to speak without learning words
2) trying to speak without knowing what the intonations and tones are
3) trying to pass tests without actually trying to learn the language outside the test
4) not enough vocab
5) etc....

If you failed to learn a language, then you look at your method! Don't need to go out discrediting my language speaking abilities because you don't believe it's possible... Now for Chinese... I never said I can READ the characters.. I read the pinyin and I can read French fluently of course. I can speak it fluently. very different.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krK8Bj7zxcI"]Fluent Mandarin in 6 months? - YouTube[/ame]

Mike28 · Mar 31, 2015

EURO FREAK said:
I said "I didn't even speak for the first year of learning. Just pure reading and listening. And within a week I was pretty fluent because I had all the words in my head and they were automatic without translations. Just repeat and repeat."

Pretty fluent... I said... I didn't say ADVANCED native, proficient and able to conduct business meetings. Anyway.. I'll put up a video at the end which Steven Kaufmann explains fluency and how to get there....

Day zero to day 365... ONLY LISTENING< READING and UNDERSTANDING
day 365 + 1 week... could already speak fluently.

This is NORMAL. I know guys who can speak fluent languages in under 6 months.

Look up benny the polyglot and he can speak in 3 months.

You can contact me in PM and we'll have a Skype chat if you want to hear my FLUENCY in Chinese and French. Yes, I'll throw in English too!

The reason why americans fail to learn languages

1) trying to speak without learning words
2) trying to speak without knowing what the intonations and tones are
3) trying to pass tests without actually trying to learn the language outside the test
4) not enough vocab
5) etc....

If you failed to learn a language, then you look at your method! Don't need to go out discrediting my language speaking abilities because you don't believe it's possible... Now for Chinese... I never said I can READ the characters.. I read the pinyin and I can read French fluently of course. I can speak it fluently. very different.

Fluent Mandarin in 6 months? - YouTube

The reason Americans don't speak as many languages is simple. It's not practical. The US is huge and you can go in many directions without having to learn another language.

European countries are closer together and one must learn other languages to function and get by.

Do you really think it has to do with the teaching method. You need immersion to learn a language. It's that simple.