Training to Failure Vs. Not Training to Failure

[K.H. Schneider]

B-Trotter how does your training split and so on look like?

 

[B-Trotter]

B-Trotter how does your training split and so on look like?

Hi,

Chest/delts/tris
Back/biceps
Chest/delts/tris
Back/biceps
Legs
Repeat everyday and take a day off when I feel that I need it.

Chest/delt/tri workout:

Plate loaded dip machine 4 x 8-15
Seated overhead press 4 x 5-10
French press 4 x 5-10

Back/biceps workout:

T-bar rows 5 x 5-12
EZ bar curls 4 x 5-10
DB shrugs 4 x 8-20

Legs workout:

Leg extensions 5 x 8-20
Leg press 5 x 15-30
Donkey calf raises (not counted but completed EVERYDAY)

NOTHING to failure, 1-2 reps shy of it. Focussing on progressive overload.

People here are adament that it's not the best way to go about building muscle. Unfortunately, they fail to comprehend that we are not all born physiologically equal.

Training to failure left me battered, frustrated, and gainless. That's trying it once a week per bodypart, twice a week, and three times a week (even every 10 days at one point), very low volume, balls to wall.

The fact is, I am finally gaining muscle and strength by increasing volume and not training to failure. It was very hard to attune to, but it's the single best training change that I've made to date.

 

[viper072379]

I go to failure on one major exercise a day and that's it gains seem to be coming on strong strength is improving also

 

[jlm25]

Failure has nothing to do w the amount weight... as tri said failure usually means taking the set to the point you can no longer perform a strict form rep... it doesn't mean you have to bail out in the hole of a squat and use the safety bars or press until the bar won't move an inch off your chest....

Young cubs, with a reference to Haney LOL.... so who here has Haney genetics for building muscle????? Please, Show me a non black guy on the pro stage or on this forum who is top level who doesn't goto positive failure and I'll show you three that do... DC TRAINING, Meadows Training, emerics training, stupid Phil's training, Phil Viz, Matt porters, Justin Harris, BBOY, etc etc etc .... all these training styles...watch the videos, they goto failure and beyond... I never see these type of guys pull up reps short before their form breaks. ...

That standard 3-4 exercises w 4 pumping sets of 10-12 stopping short and not trying to really progress doesn't transform the average 200lb lifter to a fucking superheavyweight monster in my observations after a decade plus in the gym and 6-7 years on here watching and listening to thousands of guys...

For injury prevention? Sure, that's 100% a safe way... and i get that, i have a fucked back and cant squat, is what it is....but extremes aren't built usually in the safest way... things go to extremes if u want extreme results....now, guys may switch to all this high volume shit after they've built a huge base, but they got their slinging heavy ass iron for reps.... again, i don't mean to make this a race thing but show me an impressive top ranked white guy that trains short of extreme...

Why do people mention Phil Viz? 1. he squats on a smith. 2. he never gets below 90, or even close to 90. 3. He is everything wrong with bodybuilding-most egocentric individual I have seen on facebook.

Anyway, check out Layne Norton's videos on dup, rpe, etc. There is a lot of new training information out there. I will leave 2 reps in the tank on a lot of my lifts, and in doing so I can move more total volume. When you hit failure, you are going to reduce the total volume you can move for that lift. So essentially, you are shorting yourself a good chunk..

 

[OutToLunch]

Something I enjoyed that worked for me was doing Charles poliquins 5% program on the compound lifts in the 4-8 rep range. I liked 6-8 myself. And then going till failure on the following one or two ancillary movements for that body part. Usually done for two sets in the 6-15 rep range.

 

[PitbullTank]

Why do people mention Phil Viz? 1. he squats on a smith. 2. he never gets below 90, or even close to 90. 3. He is everything wrong with bodybuilding-most egocentric individual I have seen on facebook. .

Well, bc he has one of the best amateur physiques on the planet regardless of whether i like him or not.... its hard for me to talk down about someones exercise on legs that dominates mine and 99% of this board..

, check out Layne Norton's videos on dup, rpe, etc. There is a lot of new training information out there. I will leave 2 reps in the tank on a lot of my lifts, and in doing so I can move more total volume. When you hit failure, you are going to reduce the total volume you can move for that lift. So essentially, you are shorting yourself a good chunk..

What phase of failure are you stopping 1-2 reps short of?


to me i look at it like this- who is Layne Norton and why would i follow him over the likes of Ronnie Coleman, Yates, Mountaindog, and just about EVERY other top pro guy that i mentioned that is more advanced than he has ever been or ever will be? I watch Rambod make his guys get to failure... I watch Dennis James get his guys to failure... I watch JM and Bpak train guys to failure...

Like i said, show me the list of pro BBers (bc we are talking about being the most advanced level here).... that NEVER get into strict form failure, or positive failure.... Ill throw a few videos up as well of my fav guys...

Shortening yourself? So Yates and Coleman shortened theirselves? Mountain dog shortens himself ?

on the other side of my argument Ive heard now-
Haney (which i SPECIFICALLY just watched videos of him getting ready for multiple Olympias and using partners for assisted reps past failure)......And Layne Norton...

Compared to my list up of-
RC, Yates, Gaspari, Mentzer, Arnold, Mountaindog, Cetropani, Branch, Jackson, Ramy, Hernon, BigA, Bpak, Cormier, Montgomery, Compton, wolf etc etc etc..... i mean i could literally list off every other competitor I've seen videos of...

I usually learn by examples.... if 100 guys have done it doing program X.... and 5 guys have done it doing program Y.... Im going with program X 99 times out of 100... and program X has been balls to the walls training going to failure and beyond whether its low volume or high volume, 3 days a week or 7, they all still goto the well and back from what I've watched....... if you guys find other ways, that is awesome... I'm just going by pure witnessed statistics i see on the pro level at the top...

 

[PitbullTank]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6P2iGguD-g"]Reps until failure - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzrmcrYnvUc"]Fouad 'Hoss' Abiad, Dorian 'Heavy D' Hamilton & The Mountaindog Train! - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_c25MxxNPE"]Welcome To Hell Leg Training with Cody Montgomery, Ben Pakulski, & Coach Chris Cormier - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMsqZS7iqCQ"]Justin Compton Trains Biceps 8 Weeks Out - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcFHZ_7lf-E"]Mamdouh "Big Ramy" Elssbiay Trains Chest After 2015 Arnold Classic! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[richiec]

Failure has nothing to do w the amount weight... as tri said failure usually means taking the set to the point you can no longer perform a strict form rep... it doesn't mean you have to bail out in the hole of a squat and use the safety bars or press until the bar won't move an inch off your chest....

Young cubs, with a reference to Haney LOL.... so who here has Haney genetics for building muscle????? Please, Show me a non black guy on the pro stage or on this forum who is top level who doesn't goto positive failure and I'll show you three that do... DC TRAINING, Meadows Training, emerics training, stupid Phil's training, Phil Viz, Matt porters, Justin Harris, BBOY, etc etc etc .... all these training styles...watch the videos, they goto failure and beyond... I never see these type of guys pull up reps short before their form breaks. ...

That standard 3-4 exercises w 4 pumping sets of 10-12 stopping short and not trying to really progress doesn't transform the average 200lb lifter to a fucking superheavyweight monster in my observations after a decade plus in the gym and 6-7 years on here watching and listening to thousands of guys...

For injury prevention? Sure, that's 100% a safe way... and i get that, i have a fucked back and cant squat, is what it is....but extremes aren't built usually in the safest way... things go to extremes if u want extreme results....now, guys may switch to all this high volume shit after they've built a huge base, but they got their slinging heavy ass iron for reps.... again, i don't mean to make this a race thing but show me an impressive top ranked white guy that trains short of extreme...

Something Dante has said for yeeears, these guys having been slinging heavy iron! They may not be doing it now, but that's how they got to their current size.

yes... and people need to realize there are many types of failure....

im not a scientist so excuse my terms if they are off...

1) mental failure- this varies greatly w peoples pain threshold... ur mind tells you you can't but your muscles still have energy in them... very common in beginners, you watch them rack it up wayyyy before you know they are done bc the pain starts...

2) "good form" failure- Where you can't complete another strict form rep isolating your target muscle and having to use body english , "forced reps" , recruiting secondary muscles, etc

3)positive failure- where you cannot compete another FULL rom concentric

4)negative failure- where you cannot hold or control the weight thru the whole rom eccentric

5)total failure- i guess where the weight can't be moved

Most people don't understand what physical failure is because mentally, they never allow themselves to reach it physically

 

[PitbullTank]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkqP8fbRrcE"]Mr. Olympia Lee Haney training 1989 Bodybuilding - YouTube[/ame]

LISTEN TO 7:30!!! lol :headbang:

 

[jlm25]

@pitbulltank- give me a few hours to get home and watch some of those videos and discuss some stuff with you. I love new and different perspectives from my own! Thanks for being chill and having a civil response / discussion

 

[brutus69]

B-Trotter,
what i dont get is, how u can use progressive overload while not going to failure? so if u add 5-10 pounds u can still hit the same reps? then add another 10 and still hit the same reps, without intense struggle?
id say there must be days when u go to positive failure at least once. either that or yr reps go down when the weights go up, which to me isnt progressive overload.

 

[B-Trotter]

B-Trotter,
what i dont get is, how u can use progressive overload while not going to failure? so if u add 5-10 pounds u can still hit the same reps? then add another 10 and still hit the same reps, without intense struggle?
id say there must be days when u go to positive failure at least once. either that or yr reps go down when the weights go up, which to me isnt progressive overload.

Hi,

In quite a similar way to powerlifters I'd imagine. I cannot speak for the majority of powerlifters, but I'd say that it is generally acceptable to suggest that a majority of powerlifters do not train to failure - they train to peak. That said, they gets heaps and heaps stronger.

Referring back to my example of EZ curls.

Point A: 110lbs x 10 reps x 1 set (last rep is a cheat rep)

Point B: 135 x 8 reps x 4 sets (absolutely no reps were taken to concentric failure)

I'd say that this is a very successful case of progressive overload. If it's not then the end desire was still achieved at any rate: quality muscle gain. I let my body dictate progression and did not try to force it too much.

I fully appreciate what Pitbull and others are saying. Looking at Pitbull's avatar, clearly, going to failure is definately working for him.

However, for a lot of lifters, in my experience, going to failure is detrimental. That's not an excuse for someone to cruise through a workout though; you've got to be true to yourself and get to a point where you know that you're 1-2 reps shy of true concentric failure.

For me, going to true concentric failure led to nothing but disappointment, frustration, pain, and in a state of constant lethargy. Not going to failure has led to increased emergy, increased motivation and, above all, constant gains.

I don't think that this is a one size fit all game.

All I'm saying is if you're smashing your tits off in the gym, and everything else is in order, and you're still not gaining, try backing off the failure training and let your body dictate progression rather than forcing it.

 

[rainstony]

JLM turned me onto DUP. I gained plenty of size from it and plan to go back to it at the start of May.

You train short of failure on all lifts, in the 60-85% range using different sets/reps on different days.

How do ypu progressively overload short of failure? By increasing weight each week on each lift. You dont have to go to failure. If your lifting 300 for 8 on squats your first week at 70% 1RM. And 12 weeks later you are doing 360 for 8 (+5lbs a week) you are progressively overloading. All while doing this your max ia alao increasing. It put 40 poinds on my bench in 8 or 10 weeks. Cant remember how long.

Eventually your gonna be lifting a 1RM PR eight times if you stick with it long enough. Overload. Training to failure, in my mind, trains your muscles to fail. I train just short of technical failure 90% of the time. When my form craps out. Im growing like crazy.

For me training to failure rocks my body and wears me out. Especially my CNS. Im alao not on GH, or IGF or anything to recover better. I follow the "stimulate dont annihilate" and am bigger than ive been in 26 years.

Different strokes for diffferent folks.

 

[herculeus]

BUMP

Good thread!

 

[tokon]

Yes, I agree that is high volume, that is new info not in your original post. Thanks for clarifying.

The condescension and false assumptions is why I hardly ever post btw.

Don't take it to heart please Doug!

Different languages and/or ways of expressing views verbally leads to a lot of misunderstanding.

 

[tokon]

Hi,

Chest/delts/tris
Back/biceps
Chest/delts/tris
Back/biceps
Legs
Repeat everyday and take a day off when I feel that I need it.

Chest/delt/tri workout:

Plate loaded dip machine 4 x 8-15
Seated overhead press 4 x 5-10
French press 4 x 5-10

Back/biceps workout:

T-bar rows 5 x 5-12
EZ bar curls 4 x 5-10
DB shrugs 4 x 8-20

Legs workout:

Leg extensions 5 x 8-20
Leg press 5 x 15-30
Donkey calf raises (not counted but completed EVERYDAY)

NOTHING to failure, 1-2 reps shy of it. Focussing on progressive overload.

People here are adament that it's not the best way to go about building muscle. Unfortunately, they fail to comprehend that we are not all born physiologically equal.

Training to failure left me battered, frustrated, and gainless. That's trying it once a week per bodypart, twice a week, and three times a week (even every 10 days at one point), very low volume, balls to wall.

The fact is, I am finally gaining muscle and strength by increasing volume and not training to failure. It was very hard to attune to, but it's the single best training change that I've made to date.

IMHO, if it works for you, more power to you and keep doing it until it doesn't!

 

[tokon]

BUMP

Good thread!

Yes, excellent exchange of opinions/viewpoints/ideas.

Thanks.

 

[herculeus]

Care to share yours?

 

[musclemd]

Hi,

for the last 3 years of training, I've trained every muscle and set (usually 2 per muscle) to failure. I've experimented with doing this 1, 2 & 3 times per week.

For the first three weeks, I'd gain strength rapidly, but thereafter I'd stagnate and even regress in strength - very disheartening.

Nevertheless, I kept this up for 3 years because I read on the internet that anything less and than failure means that you're not training hard enough.

However, after watching some of Lee Priests videos I decided to not train to failure, and to increase volume. I have maintained an abbreviated training routine with the same exercises but now with increased but moderate volume (6 sets over two exercises), and not to failure.

Strength gains and bodyweight gain have been linear for about 11 weeks now.

I have no doubt that by switching to a lower volume higher intensity approach I'd make rapid gains again but only for a few workouts, and then I'd definitely regress. Sure, periodisation could be an idea, but for me, a few workouts of strength before regresing isn't worth messing with the linear gains I'm getting on the lower intensity.

I suppose I'm putting this out there for those who, like me, kept hitting brick walls and stagnating by training to failure.

Anyone else feel the same?

keep mixing things up. periodization!!

 

[musclemd]

Constantly training to failure = burn out. Do it enough and you won't even want to step foot in the gym. Mental as well as physical burnout.

Have to know your body and train smart.

could not agree more!!