water balance on contest day!!!!

[lucian]

any body out there have advice on making sure that im as full as possible but not holding water on the contest day? seems like if i carb up too little no matter what im too flat which looks like crap, if i carb too much then im smooth which looks like crap. is there a formula for how many grams of carbs to take in w/out spilling over? and which type of carbs are more conducive for filling up the muscles instead of liver glycogen? im planning on using vitagrao at the advice of BIG JAY CUTLER but thats all he could give me. also how should i deplete my water, and which diuretics should i use and how. this show i wanna nail everything right as im tired of playing around. id appreciate any help from any of you.
thanks for your time guys
lucian

 

[Wolfpack]

It depends on what kind of shape you're already in. IMO if someone is already in great shape you don't need to change things too much besides the water and sodium manipulation. When I carb load to fill out I use the same carbs I use when dieting, mainly oatmeal & potatoes, and maybe some rice cakes on Friday. The client I have a pic of in the pics section still drank 3/4 of gallon of water Friday before the show and used Taraxatone for a diuretic. It would be hard to give specific advice without knowing how things went throughout the prep and seeing how depleted your are.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Carbs and H2O

When contest prepping my clients a good rule of thumb for loading is 400-600 g of carbs per day split between 6 meals Wed, Thurs, Fri ( Saturday show). This is assuming you have effectively depleted. It has been shown that the body cannot effectively absorb more than 50-75 g per hour (100g/2 Hours) without spilling glycogen over from the cell to the interstitial fluid(edema). Also very important with Carb depleting and loading is water intake. Glycogen will not load without water, so I taper something like this:
Friday-Wednesday 2-3 gallons 8-12 liters
Thursday 6 liters
Friday 3-4 liters
Water intake stops 10 hours prior to showtime. There is also the issue of sodium and potassium you need to address.

 

[lucian]

so how much potassium and mag do you need to take? ttoo much is not good right? ive always cut my water to early and didnt take in enough to load with. im gonna make sure im good and depleted this time to hopefully avoid the spill. what about diueretics? ive used taraxatone but it didnt do much before. whats the xact dosage to use? you cant get in trouble w say lasix w this right? and it cause a rebound bloat or cramping/dehydration?

 

[zephyr22]

Lasix...

It is not easy to use. First of all you have to time it perfectly as it will flatten you out like a pancake at first. Then goes the vascularity. Then upon rehydrating it goes to vessels first, then muscles, then you begin to spill over and look blurry. The trick is to time it so fluid is in the muscles and vessels and not spilling over. However lasix is very dangerous and is nothing to mess around with. I think you need to be a little more educated in the use of diuretics and how they work. You can really blow your electrolytes out of whack. You see it makes you excrete potassium while holding sodium. Just make sure and do your home work. Good luck at your show. Also show some show pics. Later.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Potassium and Diuretics

Be very careful with Lasix it is a Loop diuretic and will cause your body to excrete not only water but Potassium , Sodium and Chloride. If your potassium levels decrease too much you may experience serious and sometimes irreversible heart complications. It is very effective but be very careful and talk with someone who has experience with this drug and see if they would monitor you while taking it. Much safer diuretics include Aldactazide or Aldactone, these are potassium sparing drugs and therefore won't mess with your electrolyte balance as much.

As far as Potassium supplementation I use 99 mg per meal 5-6 meals/day. During this time sodium must be kept to absolute minimum-try for none!

 

[zephyr22]

Actually a nice diuretic...

Try 500mg of diamox about 12-15 hrs prior to the show. Then if your still holding any water injectable lasix10-20mg IV. Now I am not telling you how to do this but this is an example of what someone has done before. Like I said water depletion= dangerous situation.

 

[zephyr22]

Also chloride is not the main issue of loop diuretics. When evaluated on people clinically it is usually not a large concern for the chloride ion to be low. It is loss of potassium that is crucial. Yes sodium is excreted because water follows sodium. However the major concern is potassium. Yes it will definately widen a PR interval( the atrial contraction portion of the heart) in the contraction of the heart muscle. Thus could cause you to go in to ventricular fibrillation (Heart not pumping just quivering). Now you need the defibrillator pads with 360 jules of electricity shocked in to you. Now we are talking life and death. It is not always this cut and dry. Im just letting you know that this is the seriously dangerous part of BB competition. I wish you the best in your show.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Ions

I never said the chloride ion was the main issue of loop diuretics nor did I say that sodium was, hence the reason they are second and third to Potassium in my post. If you think that losing potassium and having heart complications is the only thing you need to worry about when taking diuretics you are sadly mistaken. Some of the many complications include: Severe dehydration, severe electrolyte imbalance causing many complications-the most important being kidney failure, dizziness and cramping, vomiting and circulatory disturbances.

The others that I mentioned are a much better choice and much safer. I would advise not using lasix unless you are experienced with it. JMO

 

[xcelbeyond]

DEMADEX (torsemide)

Is demadex a loop diuretic?

If you take aldactone for several days (potassium sparing) then demadex (loop diuretic) right before contest, how do you know where your potassium levels are?

 

[lucian]

dyazide???

is there any place to get dyazide or is it script only? i used it before and dave palumbo told me to use that but cant seem to find it, its not a common thing at this time i guess!!!! if not is there some thing else i can get w/out a script that would be compareable? i have 20mg lasix but dont wanna use it.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Is demadex a loop diuretic?

If you take aldactone for several days (potassium sparing) then demadex (loop diuretic) right before contest, how do you know where your potassium levels are?

Demadex is a loop diuretic. To answer your second question..you won't know what your P levels are unless you are being tested for them. This is where the potential risks enter the scenario.

 

[zephyr22]

I am only going from a medical standpoint....

I have never actually water depleted. I only can tell you that the main culprit with a healthy young person using diuretics is the potassium level being low. To answer your question Excel the test is known as a BMP (basic metabolic profile) it contains pretty much all you electrolytes except magnesium. Also shows BUN and creatinine which check kidney function. You are correct in the cramping and dehydration. However cramping is not fatal. Also dehydration to the point of severity is usually not the case either. Dyazide is in the thiazide diuretics which are loop diuretics. Like I said check in to diamox (much safer). Also like I said lasix is always better when used IV. It is easier to control and more predictable. Like I said Im going from a medical standpoint as I myself have never water depleted. I have talked with a few high lever competitors and they advised the diamox with inj IV or SQ lasix. I really think the main thing is though that a lot of competitors think that they are holding water when actually they may have needed to lose more bodyfat %. I personally watched a buddy of mine do a show with no water depletion but did 1hr cardio morn and 40min at night daily. He won his weight class in the heavys. He just decreased his water intake slightly over a 3 day period. Nothing drastic. It was a close one. The guy that took second said "man what kind of diuretic did you use??? My buddy said "none". So I think if your in the right shape for the show in BF level a mild diuretic would work nicely IE diamox or even aldactone as long as you can start the aldactone 10 days before the show. Good luck once again. Also Vulgar I was not disputing your facts at all. I was just stating what I have seen clinically and in no way is that the same as bodybuilding purposes of these medications.

 

[xcelbeyond]

I really think the main thing is though that a lot of competitors think that they are holding water when actually they may have needed to lose more bodyfat %.

There's A LOT to that statement! I talked about dropping water at the last contest I competed in with the guy that won my class. He was dry and ripped to hell. He said "it's not a matter of water, it's a matter of fat."

I believe there's still a lot of timing of different things - I still haven't figured it out.

Vulgar is a doc also.

 

[zephyr22]

Heck...

If you look at Lasix (furosemide) and DEMADEX (torsemide) they very close in actual comparison to one another. Im sure dosing is different also but both work in the same fashion. Also Bumex (bumetanide) is also in the loop family of diuretics. It is like takeing prevacid instead of Prilosec or even Nexium. All these PPI (proton pump inhibitors) work basicly the same way. It is mostly a marketing scam and most meds are pretty closely matched. I just want you to be safe. A contest for a 20 dollar trophy is not worth your health or your life. On the same note I hope you kick some ass for the Promuscle bros.

 

[zephyr22]

I know one of the sponsers of the board...

I know he can get you diamox pretty cheap as well. He is european. I think he still can get it.....I know he had it before. His add is in the upper right hand area.

 

[Godless]

If you look at Lasix (furosemide) and DEMADEX (torsemide) they very close in actual comparison to one another. Im sure dosing is different also but both work in the same fashion. Also Bumex (bumetanide) is also in the loop family of diuretics. It is like takeing prevacid instead of Prilosec or even Nexium. All these PPI (proton pump inhibitors) work basicly the same way. It is mostly a marketing scam and most meds are pretty closely matched. I just want you to be safe. A contest for a 20 dollar trophy is not worth your health or your life. On the same note I hope you kick some ass for the Promuscle bros.

Actually Demadex is a bit safer, heres why:

DEMADEX

The drug is absorbed with little first-pass metabolism, and the serum concentration reaches its peak (Cmax) within 1 hour after oral administration.

Simultaneous food intake delays the time to Cmax by about 30 minutes, but overall bioavailability (AUC) and diuretic activity are unchanged.

In normal subjects the elimination half-life of torsemide is approximately 3.5 hours.

With oral dosing, the onset of diuresis occurs within 1 hour and the peak effect occurs during the first or second hour. Independent of the route of administration, diuresis lasts about 6 to 8 hours.

In healthy subjects given single doses, the dose-response relationship for sodium excretion is linear over the dose range of 2.5 mg to 20 mg. The increase in potassium excretion is negligible after a single dose of up to 10 mg and only slight (5 mEq to 15 mEq) after a single dose of 20 mg.

When DEMADEX is first administered, daily urinary sodium excretion increases for at least a week.

 

[PATRAINER]

undefinedHAVE TO AGREE THAT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR CONDITIONING. PREVIOUS SHOWS THAT I HAVE DONE, NOTHING MAJOR HAVENT REALLY WATER OR CARB OR SODIUM DEPLETED. WAS READY TO COMPETE 2 WEEKS BEFORE SHOW AND JUST CONTINUED DOING WHAT I WAS DOING. TAN TWICE THE DAY BEFORE AND THAT WILL REMOVE ALOT OF UNDERSKIN WATER, AND JUST TAKE IN ENOUGH WATER TO KEEP MOUTH FROM DRYING OUT. BUT EVERYONE UNFORTUNATELY IS DIFFERENT. WHAT WORKS FOR ALL OF US MAY SINK YOU.

 

[zephyr22]

Godless....

The safety of lasix versus demidex is negligable. This is why I say use diamox because it is a carbonyc anhydrase inhibitor which does not mess with your electrolyte panel as much as a loop diuretic. Also notice im talking about using IV lasix not tablet. Oral absorption is the poorest choice due to everyones varying capacity to abosorb the drug in the stomach. Once again oral is not very predictive. IV is predictive as it acts immediately on the body giving true serum levels and half lives of the drug. Like I said aldactone 10 days before show and diamox 250mg the night before show. Then maybe another 250mg of diamox 3-4 hours prior to show. This is a safe route to use.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

The safety of lasix versus demidex is negligable. This is why I say use diamox because it is a carbonyc anhydrase inhibitor which does not mess with your electrolyte panel as much as a loop diuretic. Also notice im talking about using IV lasix not tablet. Oral absorption is the poorest choice due to everyones varying capacity to abosorb the drug in the stomach. Once again oral is not very predictive. IV is predictive as it acts immediately on the body giving true serum levels and half lives of the drug. Like I said aldactone 10 days before show and diamox 250mg the night before show. Then maybe another 250mg of diamox 3-4 hours prior to show. This is a safe route to use.

I would have to agree with zephyr on this one....these are very good points. Oral lasix or other oral loop diuretics are very unpredictable and dangerous.