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need help : progesterone gyno !

mike1107

Featured Member/ Kilo Klub
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I need help before I'll be thinking to surgery

I'm progesterone sensitive so i can't use tren anymore without having gyno problems

I used some winny aloong with my trenbolone and it didn't seem to work

I also used Bromocriptine 2.mg ed and it worked but gyno signs were still here

now stopped tren since a month or so and my nipples stay puffy and sore

Is there something I could take while on tren to avoid that progesterone side or is the surgery my only solution ?

I was thinking maybe increase the bromo to 5mg ed along with 25 mg of winny ?

I need help cause I want to avoid surgery as much possible ...
 
You are confusing prolactin control and progesterone control.

Bromocriptine controls hyperprolactinemia - in other words, it reduces prolactin levels, as does cabergoline (dostinex).

For progesterone control, the most effective drug is mifepristone (formerly known as RU486).

I wrote a brief post about this a while back because this confusion of prolactin and progesterone is pretty wide spread on the net.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12852&highlight=drgoodbody

hope this clears things a little. If you can get mifepristone that is your best bet in controlling progesterone levels.

DrG
 
drgoodbody said:
You are confusing prolactin control and progesterone control.

Bromocriptine controls hyperprolactinemia - in other words, it reduces prolactin levels, as does cabergoline (dostinex).

For progesterone control, the most effective drug is mifepristone (formerly known as RU486).

I wrote a brief post about this a while back because this confusion of prolactin and progesterone is pretty wide spread on the net.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12852&highlight=drgoodbody

hope this clears things a little. If you can get mifepristone that is your best bet in controlling progesterone levels.

DrG

thanks a lot mate
isn't winny supposed to have a similar effect to RU486 ?
 
From the profile "What has been a popular point of discussion with stanozolol is its suggested anti-progestagenic effects. The theory goes that Winny can bind and compete for a position at the progesterone receptor much like Clomid or Nolvadex would at the estrogen receptor, thereby inhibiting progestagenic effects. Now, progesterone can also aggravate estrogenic side-effects by agonizing estrogen and it does play a role in gyno." The full "profile" on winny is below and it gives a little more on this - and notes that clinical data is somewhat lacking to prove its efficacy as an antiprogestin.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=277

BTW, antiprogestogens act directly at the cellular level, by binding to the progesterone receptor and blocking the action of progesterone. Their influence is more immediate than that of progesterone synthesis inhibitors. While hundreds of compounds with antiprogestational activity have been identified, only a few have been sufficiently evaluated in biological screening models and only four - mifepristone, lilopristone, onapristone and CDB 2914 (known as HRP 2000) - have been given to humans. Most antiprogestogen research to date has been on mifepristone (RU 486). So if I had to pick one substance to control progesterone, mifepristone would be it.

DrG
 
Last edited:
drgoodbody said:
From the profile "What has been a popular point of discussion with stanozolol is its suggested anti-progestagenic effects. The theory goes that Winny can bind and compete for a position at the progesterone receptor much like Clomid or Nolvadex would at the estrogen receptor, thereby inhibiting progestagenic effects. Now, progesterone can also aggravate estrogenic side-effects by agonizing estrogen and it does play a role in gyno." The full "profile" on winny is below and it gives a little more on this - and notes that clinical data is somewhat lacking to prove its efficacy as an antiprogestin.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=277

BTW, antiprogestogens act directly at the cellular level, by binding to the progesterone receptor and blocking the action of progesterone. Their influence is more immediate than that of progesterone synthesis inhibitors. While hundreds of compounds with antiprogestational activity have been identified, only a few have been sufficiently evaluated in biological screening models and only four - mifepristone, lilopristone, onapristone and CDB 2914 (known as HRP 2000) - have been given to humans. Most antiprogestogen research to date has been on mifepristone (RU 486). So if I had to pick one substance to control progesterone, mifepristone would be it.

DrG


ok

do you have any idea of a correct dosage ?
 
Yah, im thinking about ordering this stuff as well, when im on tren to play it safe and take cabergoline as well with it. What would a good dose be if someone is on around 350mg Tren Ace per week? Also, this stuff doesnt have any sides does it? Its pretty new, so its not gonna cause some crazy shit like cancer years down the road right?
 
I used to get raging gyno from tren (like within 5 days of the first shot even when using nolva/arimidex & winny) but 1.25mg Bromo/day completely banishes it.

If you want to decrease the puffiness that's going on now post cycle use high dose nolva (ie. 60mg/day), it worked a treat for me, not only reducing puffiness but reducing the size of the lump significantly (I got gyno during puberty).
 
BUMP!!!

Fullybuilt said:
Yah, im thinking about ordering this stuff as well, when im on tren to play it safe and take cabergoline as well with it. What would a good dose be if someone is on around 350mg Tren Ace per week? Also, this stuff doesnt have any sides does it? Its pretty new, so its not gonna cause some crazy shit like cancer years down the road right?
 
Believe it or not, B6 helps me with this. I always take 200mg ed with deca or tren. If I get a flare up, 300-400mg.

BW
 
Fullybuilt said:
Yah, im thinking about ordering this stuff as well, when im on tren to play it safe and take cabergoline as well with it. What would a good dose be if someone is on around 350mg Tren Ace per week? Also, this stuff doesnt have any sides does it? Its pretty new, so its not gonna cause some crazy shit like cancer years down the road right?

It's not going to cause cancer as we all already have cancer. IT's just what we do during our lifetime that activates it basically. RU 486 isn't "new" it's been around for sometime. But mainly used as the "abortion pill." If your that worried about things causeing cancer and disease it might be a good idea to rethink supplementation as it "could" possibly cause a problem down the line if your prone to it. Sorry this might not be what you were looking for but its my take on things and I'm also the very cautious type when it comes to MY body.
 
mike1107 said:
I need help before I'll be thinking to surgery

I'm progesterone sensitive so i can't use tren anymore without having gyno problems
...

Estrogen causes the gyno, the progesterone has an amplifying effect on the gyno. We can look at various studies to confirm this...but...

The basic biology of breast cancer and breast tumors (which is what gyno is...a benign breast tumor) indicates that estrogen contributes to its development, and that it is essentially estrogen dependant. Nearly all existing mammary tumor models in most species confirm this. Human models, animal studies, in vitro, in vkivo...you name it...it's estrogen, not progesterone. Estrogen grows the gyno, not progesterone. Concerning progesterone, actually, In some studies it actually has an inhibiting effect on breast cancer growth and tumor development.

Reference:
Harris JR, Lippman ME, Morrow M, Osborne CK, editors. Diseases of the breast. 2nd ed. Philadelphia: Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins; 2000. p. 335-54.

Ergo, there is no real "progesterone" gyno, and AIs will basically work for gyno of any kind. Letro is preferred, as it has been shown in rodent models ot actually destroy gyno.

I can, if you wish, provide further studies and abstracts if you want.
 
You are confusing prolactin control and progesterone control
Bromocriptine controls hyperprolactinemia - in other words, it reduces prolactin levels, as does cabergoline (dostinex).

I have seen in studies progesterone levels lower in subjects who used bromocriptine. Dont know if it was because it lowedred prolaction or what?

THREE SUBSTANCES THAT I HAVE SEEN LOWER PROGESTERONE IN STUDIES

Two are drugs
- Mifepristone(ru486)
- Trilostane

One Supplement
- Aqueous Winter Cherry Extract

Reported To Work

-Winstrol
- B6
 
dragonfire101 said:
I have seen in studies progesterone levels lower in subjects who used bromocriptine. Dont know if it was because it lowedred prolaction or what?

THREE SUBSTANCES THAT I HAVE SEEN LOWER PROGESTERONE IN STUDIESTwo are drugs
- Mifepristone(ru486)
- Trilostane

One Supplement
- Aqueous Winter Cherry Extract

Reported To Work

-Winstrol
- B6

Actually, most DHT-derived steroids probably act to inhibit progesterone in some way or another. In women, Anadrol (oxymetholone) has even been studied as a possible female contraceptive as well as possible abortion pill, because of it's ability to inhibit progesterone biosynthesis.

Res Front Fertil Regul. 1981 Feb;1(3):1-14.


Inhibition of progestational activity for fertility regulation.

Chatterton RT.

PIP: This review examines a number of areas of postconceptive fertility regulation, focusing on promising new antiprogestational agents. Pregnancy is dependent upon the availability of progesterone for the uterus and its withdrawal results in the breakdown of the secretory endometrium. Its availability can be interferred with at several levels and the new methods which allow for progesterone inhibition must be tested for possible defeminizing properties or for serious side effects. In the evaluation of contragestational agents, several areas must be taken into consideration--assessment of biological activities, dose requirements and mode of action, duration of effects, route of administration, and drug tolerance and side effects. The failure to maintain progesterone in the blood at levels required for pregnancy maintenance may be due to a decrease in progesterone secretion by the ovary or to an increased rate of metabolism and excretion of circulating progesterone. The various substances discussed do either 1 or the other; however even when a compound is known to result in a decrease in the rate of progesterone secretion, the process by which it does this may not be known. Prostaglandins seem to affect myometrial contraction, luteinizing hormone releasing hormones can inhibit steroid production or interfere with LH binding to its receptor, and immunization against hCG is a successful immunological approach to conception. Lithospermic acid is another substance which interferes with gonadotropin support of the ovary and has good potential. Other compounds that interfere with progesterone secretion act to inhibit steroidogenesis in the ovary and placenta; such substances include aminoglutethimide, oxymetholone, trilostane, azastene, and danazol. Another progesterone-suppression method would remove a sufficient amount of progesterone from the body to cause endometrium involution and promote contractility of the myometrium. Progesterone antagonists include ORF 9361, R3434, Anordrin, ORF 3858, and other estrogens, triazole compounds, ORF 5513, trichosanthin, and zoapatanol.


In addition the following study gives ample evidence that Aromatase Inhibitors (Letrozole, Arimidex, etc...) will also combat progesterone:

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9. Related Articles, Links


Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

PMID: 16002280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):461-7.


Use of letrozole as a chemopreventive agent in aromatase overexpressing transgenic mice
.

Luthra R, Kirma N, Jones J, Tekmal RR.

Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Emory University School of Medicine, 4217 Woodruff Memorial Building, Atlanta, GA 30322-4710, USA.

Our recent studies have shown that overexpression of aromatase results in increased tissue estrogenic activity and induction of hyperplastic and dysplastic lesions in mammary glands, and gynecomastia and testicular cancer in male aromatase transgenic mice. Our studies also have shown that aromatase overexpression-induced changes in mammary glands can be abrogated with very low concentrations of letrozole, an aromatase inhibitor without any effect on normal physiology. In the present study, we have examined the effect of prior low dose letrozole treatment on pregnancy and lactation. We have also investigated the effect of low dose letrozole treatment on subsequent mammary growth and biochemical changes in these animals. There was no change in the litter size, birth weight and no visible birth defects in letrozole-treated animals. Although, there was an insignificant increase in mammary growth in aged animals after 6 weeks of letrozole treatment, the levels of expression of estrogen receptor, progesterone receptor and genes involved in cell cycle and cell proliferation remained low compared to control untreated animals. These observations indicate that aromatase inhibitors such as letrozole can be used as chemopreventive agents without effecting normal physiology in aromatase transgenic mice.


Cancer Invest. 2002;20 Suppl 2:15-21.


Anti-tumor effects of letrozole.


Miller WR, Anderson TJ, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit Research Group, University of Edinburgh, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, EH4 2XU, UK. [email protected]

The use of drugs, which inhibit estrogen biosynthesis, is an attractive treatment for postmenopausal women with hormone-dependent breast cancer. Estrogen deprivation is most specifically achieved using inhibitors which block the last stage in the biosynthetic sequence, i.e., the conversion of androgens to estrogens by the aromatase enzyme. Recently, a new generation of aromatase inhibitors has been developed. Among these, letrozole (Femara) appears to be the most potent. When given orally in milligram amounts per day to postmenopausal women, the drug almost totally inhibits peripheral aromatase and causes a marked reduction in circulating estrogens to levels that are often undetectable in conventional assays. Similarly, neoadjuvant studies demonstrate that letrozole substantially inhibits aromatase activity in both malignant and nonmalignant breast tissues, and markedly suppresses endogenous estrogens within the breast cancers. These studies also illustrate anti-estrogenic and anti-proliferative effects of letrozole in estrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumors. Thus, tumor expression of progesterone receptors and the cell-cycle marker Ki67 is significantly and consistently reduced with treatment. Additionally, clear pathological responses as evidenced by decreased cellularity and increased fibrosis are seen in the majority of cases. These results translated into clinical benefit in a series of 24 breast cancers treated neoadjuvantly with letrozole (either 2.5 or 10 mg): tumor volume reductions > 25% were observed in 23 women, and > 50% reductions in 18 patients. Pathological and clinical effects are seen much more consistently than with tamoxifen. Thus, in a multicenter randomized trial of letrozole vs. tamoxifen (PE 024), clinical study outcomes were superior for letrozole in comparison with tamoxifen with regard to overall tumor response and an increase in the proportion of patients treated by breast conserving surgery. Letrozole has also been used in advanced breast cancer, both as second-line hormone treatment following tamoxifen failure, and more recently as first-line therapy. Trials of second-line treatment in which letrozole has been compared with either older aromatase inhibitors or progestins have shown equivalent or superior clinical activity and improved tolerability favoring letrozole. In first-line comparison with tamoxifen in metastatic disease, a phase III trial of over 900 postmenopausal women showed letrozole to be significantly better than tamoxifen in terms of overall tumor response rates, clinical benefit, and time to treatment failure. In summary, letrozole is an exceptionally potent and specific endocrine agent. In patients with ER-rich tumors, high rates of pathological and clinical response have been documented, and large phase III trials against established treatments such as tamoxifen and progestin suggest superior (or at least equivalent) clinical efficacy. Letrozole is a drug of immense potential and in the future is likely to occupy a central role in the management of postmenopausal women with hormone-dependent breast cancer.
 
I have the excact same problem.
Tren and deca give me gyno within a week.It seems i'm very sensitive to both bad and good effects because they are also very effective in terms of muscle building to me ,much more than testosterone .

In my own experience,aromasin got me the best protection so far.During cycle the already existing gyno got only slightly bigger and after cycle it got markedly smaller.It seems the -stanes like exemestane,formestane and trilostane also block progesterone to a slight degree.
Femara didn't even give me half the positive effects and arimidex even fewer.I'll just go back to aromasin or will try formestane.

Idon't know about progesterone just amplifying estrogen's effects because i get gyno from tren only or deca only even when using an antiaromatase and a ssri that actually reduce circulating and active estrogen to about zero if no aromatizing steroids are used.

I'm open to anything that might work,even vet drugs of the ru 486 family that do exist and are used in horses.
Winstrol will be next ,although last time i saw no difference.
 
Fastandfurious said:
I have the excact same problem.
Tren and deca give me gyno within a week.It seems i'm very sensitive to both bad and good effects because they are also very effective in terms of muscle building to me ,much more than testosterone .

In my own experience,aromasin got me the best protection so far.During cycle the already existing gyno got only slightly bigger and after cycle it got markedly smaller.It seems the -stanes like exemestane,formestane and trilostane also block progesterone to a slight degree.
Femara didn't even give me half the positive effects and arimidex even fewer.I'll just go back to aromasin or will try formestane.

Idon't know about progesterone just amplifying estrogen's effects because i get gyno from tren only or deca only even when using an antiaromatase and a ssri that actually reduce circulating and active estrogen to about zero if no aromatizing steroids are used.

I'm open to anything that might work,even vet drugs of the ru 486 family that do exist and are used in horses.
Winstrol will be next ,although last time i saw no difference.

Have you tried running Letro at 2.5mgs/day until the gyno goes away????
 
No,i haven't.
I'll probably do it though with aromasin@12,5mg/ed which is more effective for me (withing 3 days gyno starts subsiding).I was expecting the same thing to happen with femara but didn't (i tried femara after romasin).
I'll see what happens and will even try ru486 if i can.

Generally i seem to be quite sensitive to progesteronic sides,including prostate swelling from tren.A pitty not many things can help there too.
 
I only get to read this board about once a week, so I don't have time to get into as much detail as I'd like to on this subject.

I wouldn't recommend high doses of aromatase inhibitors, because you will likely feel very crappy with estrogen levels suppressed far below normal circulating values (and yes, men do have estrogen normally).

As for the dose of mifepristone, which is the only antiprogestin that I would recommend, my recommendation would be 200mg daily (1 tab). BTW, medical abortions (non-surgical) typically use a dose of 600mg at once. I would use this level and see if the symptoms subside in a couple of days. Good luck, and sorry I don't have time for a detailed write up on why crushing estrogen levels alone won't necessarily solve your problem.

DrG

(A. Roberts - you sound like Bill Roberts, who refused to believe that there was any link between tren and gyno, except via estrogen pathways - please don't quote me a bunch of abstracts - just making an observation).
 

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