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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2009, 09:58 AM
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Ending a 12 year relationship, very confused.

Got a tough decision to make, we’ve been together for 12 years (married for the last 6) and things were pretty good up until about 2 years ago, now I’m looking at a divorce. There’s so much shit that’s built up over time I hardly know where to begin telling this so you guys get an idea where I’m coming from here…2 years ago we moved to be closer to my wife’s family and really started to try and have a child. All the testing came back that there was nothing wrong with us physically, but we couldn’t conceive. At the time my wife was in a nearly perpetual state of tension from her work, she could never relax, and every month when she got her period it would be two solid weeks of crying, usually followed by yelling as she vented all her accumulated frustrations at me. She would accuse me of things, verbally attack me, and just treat me like shit and if I stood up for myself and tried to work things out she would deny everything and tell me I wasn’t being supportive and that I had no right to feel the way I did.

As time passed she began to be very disrespectful towards me and treat me with a lack of common courtesy and consideration that basically bordered on outright contempt. She changed jobs and got raise so that we now had the same salaries and that’s when things really seemed to escalate. Her control issues and passive aggressive behaviour became more severe. There were all kinds of weird petty things that I won’t go into, but it got extreme and there were huge fights with her first making excuses for her actions, then making denials, and finally rationalizing her behaviour away by accusing me of not loving her. It was nuts, and 10 times worse when she was PMSing.

Things have continued to spiral downwards, massive fights, insane accusations, all sorts of stupidity, culminating with me kicking her out of the house last month….but she wouldn’t leave, just sat in the driveway crying…and fuck me, I felt bad and let her come back. Her behaviour improved for a couple of weeks with only minor meltdowns (par for the course with her) but now its gone completely sideways again…its just like when you slow down for a while after getting a speeding ticket, right now the scare has worn off and she’s back up and running.

Now, I know anybody reading this would be like “uhhh, you actually have to ask us if you should get out of this toxic relationship???” but the difficult thing is that it really seems like she’s doing this because she’s got it into her head that I don’t want to be with her so she’s trying to push me away and make me leave her….maybe I’m just in denial, I don’t know, I’m too close to this to be objective. Want to throw in here too that I've never cheated on her and I don't believe she's cheated on me, with our work schedules it would seem almost impossible and she doesn't go out and party, ever. I’ve asked her straight out what she wants and she says she wants to be with me, that she doesn’t want to leave me or lose me but the one truth is that I’m not happy, she’s not happy, and when I try to talk to her about it and work things out she either walks away or tells me that I don’t love her.

Lol, don’t know if that makes any sense, there's just so much that has happened I can't put it all in one post but I know you guys have been through lots of shit too so any insights you can share will help out. I feel like I may be giving up on her and us at a time when she needs me...I don't want to be selfish, but at this point its becoming so damaging I don't know how much more I can take.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:15 AM
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This is difficult wrought. 12 years is a long long time to be with someone, especially these days. One thing I will not tolerate from the ladies I've been with is disrespect. I've always shown the respect to them that they deserve, but I will not be talked down to. That's BS and you don't deserve that. You've stayed loyal to her. Provided for her. Held her when she needed it.

I wouldn't say boot her bro, as you have a lot wrapped up in this. Have you gone to counselling yet??? Also, have you and her sat and had a serious heart to heart talk with her???

My girl was getting pretty stupid when she moved in with me and I set the record straight with her. I have never raised my voice to her, hit her, called her names. Im firm, but Im fair with her and she knows it. When her monthly friend is visiting, if she starts getting the wench way, I give it right back to her. I'll tell her, unless you want to talk like a human instead of acting like an ass for no reason, don't bother talking to me, until you've mellowed.

I would sit her down bro and have a SERIOUS talk with her and let her know she's skating on thin ice. You don't deserve to be treated with disrespect. Especially from your significant other. Just my thoughts bro.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:16 AM
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Wrought, I am a firm believer in marriage, but sometimes it just doesn't work. There is some good news, you didn't have a child together. You would have never been able to make a clean break if you had one. By the way, Divorces sometimes get dowwnright ugly, you better arm yourself with a good lawyer. I wish you the best, it is not a great situation to be in. Keep a level head on your shoulders and don't do anything foolish.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:47 AM
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This might be worth a shot

Sometimes things just aren't meant to be and other times they are but with a little twist here and there. I think you love this women but you are just at the end of your rope. I think you will miss this women deeply if you remove each other from your lives in many ways you will lose a part of yourself. Sometimes people are out there drowning and you throw them a life preserver time and time again and though it is there they just won't grab it. The rescuer can sometimes give up and go to safety and let the other person drown, other times they can keep trying and eventually fall overboard themselves and both parties drown, or sometimes the person in need won't grab the lifeline 99 straight times and on the 100th, right when the rescuer was ready to give up, they take the life line. I think maybe you are on about your 95th throw.

Why don't you show her or make a copy and give it to her of what you wrote to us. Be honest speak from the heart. If you love her and want to spend the rest of your life with her tell her. Tell her it's killing you to live like this and as bad as you want a life with her it won't be this one. Not with out changes on her part. Then you have done all that you can do and though it will cut like a knife for your own health you can walk away.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by pumpt73 View Post
I wouldn't say boot her bro, as you have a lot wrapped up in this. Have you gone to counselling yet??? Also, have you and her sat and had a serious heart to heart talk with her???
Been having serious heart to hearts since we got together. She's not quick to share her feelings and has had some major emotional trauma in her life so I've sat with her during every single emotional event and helped her work through things. But when it comes to the way we treat each other its always the same, eventually she will acknowledge the way she acts and what she's done/said to me and then things will improve for a short time, but it always spirals back down again.

We have not tried counselling, it's always an option that I would consider but at this point there seems to be no willingness to even acknowledge there are two sides to this. When she feels hurt the things she does to me are completely irrelevant, it's beyond selfish and it negates me as an equal in the marriage...fuck, it negates me as a person, my opinion/emotion literally doesn't count. If she refuses to listen to me when I tell her these things and she can't admit it to herself I don't hold out a lot of hope that she would respect the words of a stranger who told her something she doesn't want to hear, more likely she would feel persecuted and push back harder.

I don't want to give up on her because she says she doesn't want to give up on me, but her actions say something completely different.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by aeliop View Post
Sometimes things just aren't meant to be and other times they are but with a little twist here and there. I think you love this women but you are just at the end of your rope. I think you will miss this women deeply if you remove each other from your lives in many ways you will lose a part of yourself. Sometimes people are out there drowning and you throw them a life preserver time and time again and though it is there they just won't grab it. The rescuer can sometimes give up and go to safety and let the other person drown, other times they can keep trying and eventually fall overboard themselves and both parties drown, or sometimes the person in need won't grab the lifeline 99 straight times and on the 100th, right when the rescuer was ready to give up, they take the life line. I think maybe you are on about your 95th throw.

Why don't you show her or make a copy and give it to her of what you wrote to us. Be honest speak from the heart. If you love her and want to spend the rest of your life with her tell her. Tell her it's killing you to live like this and as bad as you want a life with her it won't be this one. Not with out changes on her part. Then you have done all that you can do and though it will cut like a knife for your own health you can walk away.
Lol, its the 98th throw buddy. Believe me, the crap I've absorbed continually turning the other cheek and trying to keep an open, hopeful heart has almost killed me. I told her when I kicked her out a month ago that I wouldn't take this sort of treatment anymore but then I once again gave her another chance...this weekend she started up again and when I told her I couldn't take the shit she was dumping on me her reply was "Yeah, that's what you said last time."....hearing that was like getting slapped.

Usually she calms down after a day, so I tried to talk to her about it last night and she was lovey-dovey until I said that the weekend had been painful for me at which point she walked away, went to bed, started crying and accused me of not loving her. She's a beautiful, intelligent woman, and I do love her with all my heart..my vows were for life and I've told her so more times than I can remember but she's very insecure and has low self-esteem and refuses to believe me..even after 12 years, a miscarriage, and standing by her side through the kinds of insane stress that school, work, and bodybuilding (she competed too) can add to a relationship....I know I'm strong and should be able to take this, to be there for her, and I don't want to turn my back on her and leave, but fuck, I don't know if I can fight this fight any more.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:43 AM
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Aeliop is right

I would write her a letter telling her how unhappy you are and how you can work together to make it as good as it should be.

But you have a tough road if she won't even acknowledge there are 2 sides (3?) of every problem. Make sure you are the one she wants, her actions aren't in alignment with her words.

Best wishes.
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Old 09-09-2009, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wrought View Post
Been having serious heart to hearts since we got together. She's not quick to share her feelings and has had some major emotional trauma in her life so I've sat with her during every single emotional event and helped her work through things. But when it comes to the way we treat each other its always the same, eventually she will acknowledge the way she acts and what she's done/said to me and then things will improve for a short time, but it always spirals back down again.

We have not tried counselling, it's always an option that I would consider but at this point there seems to be no willingness to even acknowledge there are two sides to this. When she feels hurt the things she does to me are completely irrelevant, it's beyond selfish and it negates me as an equal in the marriage...fuck, it negates me as a person, my opinion/emotion literally doesn't count. If she refuses to listen to me when I tell her these things and she can't admit it to herself I don't hold out a lot of hope that she would respect the words of a stranger who told her something she doesn't want to hear, more likely she would feel persecuted and push back harder.

I don't want to give up on her because she says she doesn't want to give up on me, but her actions say something completely different.

Bro, this post was hard to read. Nobody should be treated like that. I'll be honest bro, from what I've read, it sounds like emotionally, you've let go and once that happens, it's pretty much over. If you're not going to be happy, then there really is no reason to stay. I know you care about her, but your marriage sounds a lot like one of my friends. His wife would berade him all the time in front of his family and friends, then act like it was fine. No way I could do that.

I do like tricoach's idea of writing her a letter. And don't hold nothing back. Let her know this is your true feelings. Bro all I can say is this. If you're not happy and the emotion isn't there anymore, I can't see any reason to keep trying. There are tons of women out there that would appreciate you, for you, and not talk down to you. Godspeed bro. I wish you well. Keep us posted on how you're doing.
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Old 09-09-2009, 01:12 PM
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Thanks guys. Like tricoach said, there are always 3 sides to every story but the only way to find that 3rd story, that middle ground, is if we're both honest about where we stand.

I'm going to give it another go tonight and try work through this with her....I've got no problem admitting to my negative contributions to this mess and taking responsibility for the things I've said/done (it takes two people to fight and I've stood my ground too many times to claim innocence here) but I often find that as soon as I do that she uses it as justification for her actions....even if her actions proceeded mine (she uses the effect to justify the cause)....lol, talk about a discussion that will make your head hurt, but at least it will make for a funny story one day. Thanks again guys.
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:01 PM
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You're right, we're gonna tell you to get outta there as fast as you can. Seriously, if you say you'll give it another cpl months, yer gonna be there for a year. Don't waste another day of your life being miserable. There are so many women you have yet to meet that will end up making you happy and complete.
12yrs is a long relationship, a strong tie that is hard to cut. A cpl bad yrs of your life you're not getting back, why ask for more - GET OUT!
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:49 PM
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Odd as this may sound I would start trying to focus on other things that don't necessarily include her....Seems like you've done all you can do and until she puts forth some effort then nothing will change....this may piss her off but what more can you do...If she starts complaining, yelling, etc then just tell her that you love her but you've felt like you've been on the backburner these past couple years and your no longer gonna put up with it....If she's not willing to recognize and accept her issues then yall will never be able to move forward...

Does she have abandonement issues..?
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:23 PM
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Sounds like her behavior has a lot of similarities to my wife - and we have split after 15 years together.

I went through the same cries of 'not loving her', which was beyond absurd. She would always tell people how great our marriage was and everyone commented on it. But after she started to change, nothing made sense. One night I went to bed tired at 10PM, she wanted to stay up and watch TV. OK. She comes up stairs over an hour later and is literally bouncing on the bed like a child wanting to talk. I am 1/2 asleep and have to be up in less than 6 hours for work. I groggily tell her, "I'm sorry hun, but I need to sleep..."
She likes to use this as evidence as I didn't love her - never mind that I ran home from work everyday to see her and my daughter as early as possible - almost always the first guy to leave to office. No one goes home at 5PM in Tokyo. Then she started blaming me for being tired at night. Then she blamed me for showing I was tired. This after working a full day and standing on a crowded Japanese train for 1.5 hours. Well, with the money she 'required' every month I had to have a good job, and I got home damn early to boot.

I think in both our cases the foundations are based in insecurities. Some self-worth and self-esteem issues, which our wives will no doubt deny exist, even though they told us about them in earlier days when they sought comfort. Somehow later in life these issues re-emerge as women (and perhaps men too) feel the clock of time ticking louder in their ears. They become afraid, and consequently go on the attack as a self defense. Unfortunately they attack those who care about them most.

If you can, see a marriage counselor, let her do most of the talking in the first session. It will give the doc a chance to gather data to help you both.

In my case nothing could be done, but perhaps in yours it will help.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkmoon View Post
Sounds like her behavior has a lot of similarities to my wife - and we have split after 15 years together.

I went through the same cries of 'not loving her', which was beyond absurd. She would always tell people how great our marriage was and everyone commented on it. But after she started to change, nothing made sense. One night I went to bed tired at 10PM, she wanted to stay up and watch TV. OK. She comes up stairs over an hour later and is literally bouncing on the bed like a child wanting to talk. I am 1/2 asleep and have to be up in less than 6 hours for work. I groggily tell her, "I'm sorry hun, but I need to sleep..."
She likes to use this as evidence as I didn't love her - never mind that I ran home from work everyday to see her and my daughter as early as possible - almost always the first guy to leave to office. No one goes home at 5PM in Tokyo. Then she started blaming me for being tired at night. Then she blamed me for showing I was tired. This after working a full day and standing on a crowded Japanese train for 1.5 hours. Well, with the money she 'required' every month I had to have a good job, and I got home damn early to boot.

I think in both our cases the foundations are based in insecurities. Some self-worth and self-esteem issues, which our wives will no doubt deny exist, even though they told us about them in earlier days when they sought comfort. Somehow later in life these issues re-emerge as women (and perhaps men too) feel the clock of time ticking louder in their ears. They become afraid, and consequently go on the attack as a self defense. Unfortunately they attack those who care about them most.

If you can, see a marriage counselor, let her do most of the talking in the first session. It will give the doc a chance to gather data to help you both.

In my case nothing could be done, but perhaps in yours it will help.
Thanks Hawk, I'd been reading your threads on here and appreciate the insight, seeing how you've been able to move on has given me some hope for what my future may be like if we do separate. It does sound very similar, everybody thinks we're the perfect couple and its nothing but smiles and rainbows, I've bent over backwards for this marriage and to get called out as being uncommitted when she gets her back up is just insane to me. She is turning 37 next month, I'm 32, so I do think the age thing is contributing also. The whole thing is a little curious to watch, she's very intelligent (two degrees, professional career), makes decent money (as much as I do, we're in the same field), and is very attractive...but the level of insecurity is totally irrational and at some level she realizes this but is incapable of stopping herself.

She does have abandonment issues, she married her highschool sweetheart when she was in her late teens just after he had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. She stayed by his side until the end, gave him his morphine every day, watched him waste away and held him when he passed...it's more than most people would be capable of doing and it took a massive toll on her. I met her a couple of years after that had happened and it took years to work through all of the emotional baggage she had from that. She's broken down many times thinking I was going to die and leave her too and she's tried multiple times to push me away because she thought that me leaving would be less painful than her having to face a loss like that again.

When things came to a head last month I started to take back the parts of my life that I'd given up for her, I bought a bike (she'd insisted I sell mine years ago because it was too dangerous), and started being more social and going out with coworkers for lunch (that started a shit storm of accusations because there are *women* in my office who come out with us and her sister's husband left her for a coworker). These are just little things that most people would take for granted but it is refreshing to give myself some time and start putting back those pieces I felt were missing.

We spent a couple hours talking last night and she has agreed to go to marriage counselling. I don't know if it will help but I want to exhaust the options before I give up on this.
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:13 AM
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Just wanted to post an update. We've been through two counselling sessions so far and have two more scheduled for next week. The counsellor is a decent guy, but he's just basically going through his standard script and this hasn't been particularly helpful to me yet...mainly because the issues I've brought up (and will bring up) have all been raised and discussed/fought over between us many many times in the past and there is nothing new here for me yet.

I know that it is early in the process for me to be drawing any conculsions about the effectiveness of this counselling but I will say now that if you and your SO are having problems it is going to be best to bring in a counsellor early so that you can truly address the issues. What I am learning from this is just how little my wife has taken in from our discussions and disagreements over the years, how little she has listened when I spoke to her, and how little she has believed of the things that she did hear. All of the work I put in, all of the time, all of the honesty, all of those heart to heart discussions and late nights filled with tears amounted to nothing for her..it changed nothing, it meant nothing, she doesn't even remember it, let alone value it.

Guys, I guess the lesson I'm learning here is that in some situations you can work as hard as you possibly can, give all that you are, and be all that is asked of you and it still won't matter because the problem doesn't lie in your ability to give, it lies in their ability to acknowledge and appreciate what you do. You've got to learn to see this in a partner and not beat yourself up about what you perceive to be your failure as a man. I had this forced on me last night when my wife had a meltdown after the counselling session. I was holding her and trying to talk her down while she lay there crying/yelling at me about how I wanted to leave her....the contradiction between what I was doing and what she was saying was so clear it was almost funny (but for the love of fuck, if you ever find yourself in that position, DO NOT LAUGH!). And for the record this goes both ways too, some men do not appreciate their wives and that is equally destructive.

At this point I am still marginally hopeful for a positive resolution, I am not giving up, but she has now seized on the counsellor's mention of clinical depression as a potential cause for my unhappiness (as opposed to the emotionally abusive collapse of a 12 year relationship, lol) and is pushing for me to get medication to "take the edge off" so I am easier for her to deal with.

The saga continues, cheers.
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:53 PM
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Ever think your wife is bi-polar (rapid cycling type) ?
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Old 10-01-2009, 07:30 AM
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Ever think your wife is bi-polar (rapid cycling type) ?
No, even the ultrafast cycling doesn't come close to this. This is more like a domestic violence situation except when she gets triggered she doesn't act out physically she acts out emotionally.....and believe me this is worse because when this sort of shit happens you don't wind up with a bruise or a scar to show to somebody as proof, you just wind up feeling worthless and destroyed. lol, now ain't that a happy way to end a post!
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:07 PM
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Sorry to hear about your situation wrought. I hope things work out for the best, whatever that may be for the two of you.
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I had this forced on me last night when my wife had a meltdown after the counselling session. I was holding her and trying to talk her down while she lay there crying/yelling at me about how I wanted to leave her....the contradiction between what I was doing and what she was saying was so clear it was almost funny (but for the love of fuck, if you ever find yourself in that position, DO NOT LAUGH!).
Sorry, but I laughed at this. You must have done some giggling and that didn't go over very well?
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Old 10-06-2009, 04:32 PM
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They say all good things shall come to an end..well the bad things come to an end too. Wife moved out to her sisters today after an absolutely insane fight last night.

I'd been asking for a separation for a while now because I knew she couldn't break her negative patterns of behaviour if I was around to serve as both trigger and target for her anger, but as things got worse I pushed back more and last night neither of us stopped.... it didn't get violent but it came so damn close that i thought one of the neighbours was going to call the cops. This scared the shit out of me guys, I do not want to ever come close to that line of domestic violence again and will do whatever it takes to protect both her and myself from ourselves. So the ultimatum was given, she could go to her family or I would leave her the house and walk, she chose to go to her family.

There may be some hope in the future if we can each deal with our issues and come back together as functional adults, but at this stage a separation is the best (and safest) course of action.

You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:27 PM
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I hear you wrought.

I moved out in April, and it broke my heart to leave my daughter during the week, but my wife simply cannot control her raging temper. More than once she came very close to being physical with me, though I never did with her.

This was too much for me to allow it to continue in front of my little girl. She would often yell as us (mostly my wife actually) to "Stop fighting!". Not something a three year old should deal with.

I am still at a loss as to why my wife is so irrational, but that is because I am trying to view it in a reasonable manner, and there is nothing reasonable about the processes in her head. Seems you are in the same place.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:52 PM
wrought's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkmoon View Post
I am still at a loss as to why my wife is so irrational, but that is because I am trying to view it in a reasonable manner, and there is nothing reasonable about the processes in her head. Seems you are in the same place.
Very much so hawk, her anger and the way she twists her memories of events is something I am simply not capable of dealing with, god knows I've tried. When she left yesterday I asked her why she had pushed me away the way she did and her response was that it was me who had pushed her away....lol, I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that is.

For anybody reading this who is in a similar situation, I know it sounds stupid but you should keep a diary of events so that you have a record of what events happened and how they happened. Don't do this for any legal reason, or to use as ammunition in another pointless fight, but do it simply for your own sanity. As things got worse for us my wife would twist things more and more to the point where she would dispute the words that came out of her mouth 30 seconds ago. Any rational person understands that they are fallible and can make mistakes or forget little details, and when you have a person who you trust implicitly telling you that you are the one who is wrong it is very easy to doubt yourself, keeping a diary will remove this doubt. I didn't do this and it was very hard on me when she began to accuse me of being clinically depressed, escalating to being bipolar as things got worse, and peaking with declarations of borderline schizophrenia when I would disagree with her claims....this thread helped a bit, and I shared everything with my parents so they could corroborate that I wasn't actually crazy, lol, to the moment she walked out the door she maintained that it was me who needed to get help while she remained completely oblivious to her own discontinuities. So much fun.
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