Anabolic Steroid Abuse and the cardiovascular system

maldorf · May 27, 2011

ssdark1 said:
IMO, 1250 mgs total a week isnt exactly playing the game with caution.

Yes, id have to agree. ONly if a cycle were 4 weeks max would it be half way cautious and even then its a stretch. Funny thing is though that for an experienced lifter and someone that has used AAS for several years that is a low dose and playing is cautious.

maldorf · May 27, 2011

get it in ya said:
i think its mostly genetics. of course there is risk, we all know that. if the risk scares you then dont do it. i have a friend who had a heart attack last summer. 29 years old, 6 stints in his heart. yes he was juicing but i think it was a bunch of shit that did him in and mostly genetics. he was one of those genetic freaks, he looked at a bottle and grew. he never did alot of aas, maybe 600 test 450 eq here and there. he smoked, took 8 pain killers a day, steroids, not eating right, not sleeping right. his dad had a stint in his heart and his grandfather died from a heart attack. it was a bunch of shit that did it but genetics played a huge role. i think most of us at least know a few people that have been on for over a decade. i once ran 1000 of test and 600 deca and other stuff mixed in for 6 years strait. i am a type 1 diabetic so i'm at alot more risk. my blood work was not perfect but nothing to bad. of course the meds helped. blood pressure and cholesterol meds. what i'm trying to say is its alot to do with genetics. if you have family history of heart problems or health problems and you add a lot of aas for many years no doubt there is alot bigger risk

True. Problem is that there are a lot of guys that suffer bad side effects but just try to treat the symptoms with other drugs and continue to use year after year. They inevitably end up using higher and higher doses too as the years progress. Sometimes a person knows deep down inside that they are putting themselves at risk but the drive to grow and be bigger overshadows this all.

aqrojase · May 27, 2011

get it in ya said:
i think its mostly genetics. of course there is risk, we all know that. if the risk scares you then dont do it. i have a friend who had a heart attack last summer. 29 years old, 6 stints in his heart. yes he was juicing but i think it was a bunch of shit that did him in and mostly genetics. he was one of those genetic freaks, he looked at a bottle and grew. he never did alot of aas, maybe 600 test 450 eq here and there. he smoked, took 8 pain killers a day, steroids, not eating right, not sleeping right. his dad had a stint in his heart and his grandfather died from a heart attack. it was a bunch of shit that did it but genetics played a huge role. i think most of us at least know a few people that have been on for over a decade. i once ran 1000 of test and 600 deca and other stuff mixed in for 6 years strait. i am a type 1 diabetic so i'm at alot more risk. my blood work was not perfect but nothing to bad. of course the meds helped. blood pressure and cholesterol meds. what i'm trying to say is its alot to do with genetics. if you have family history of heart problems or health problems and you add a lot of aas for many years no doubt there is alot bigger risk

What would be considered many years? How long was your friend cycling for?

get it in ya · May 27, 2011

maldorf said:
True. Problem is that there are a lot of guys that suffer bad side effects but just try to treat the symptoms with other drugs and continue to use year after year. They inevitably end up using higher and higher doses too as the years progress. Sometimes a person knows deep down inside that they are putting themselves at risk but the drive to grow and be bigger overshadows this all.

i 100 percent agree. i struggle with ecactly what your saying. none of us want to shrink and lose the pumps and strength and great feeling. we want to keep getting bigger. which makes this sport very dangerous

maldorf · May 27, 2011

get it in ya said:
i 100 percent agree. i struggle with ecactly what your saying. none of us want to shrink and lose the pumps and strength and great feeling. we want to keep getting bigger. which makes this sport very dangerous

Its tough to deal with emotionally. It is the reason that I finally ended up just cruising on test in between cycles and never got off 100%. I found that I was just able to maintain what I had by taking about 350 mg test/week. Anything less than that and I would slowly start losing muscle and get more flabby if I didnt cut calories.

get it in ya · May 27, 2011

aqrojase said:
What would be considered many years? How long was your friend cycling for?

my friend was probably on for a year strait maybe, which isnt alot in my eyes. he didnt run alot of gear either. he had a blood clot 3 years before and stopped. he had no buisness doing aas after getting a clot a few years before. plus smoking, drug use and family history. sad because my friend was a freak. the scouts were looking at him for baseball, played colledge football, great basketball player. in little league he was hitting 300 foot hr's. he would lift for a week and throw up 405 for 5. just a total freak. he was in a coma for 3 weeks and now has 6 stints. still cant get off the pain killers. very sad

get it in ya · May 27, 2011

maldorf said:
Its tough to deal with emotionally. It is the reason that I finally ended up just cruising on test in between cycles and never got off 100%. I found that I was just able to maintain what I had by taking about 350 mg test/week. Anything less than that and I would slowly start losing muscle and get more flabby if I didnt cut calories.

so true bro. i dont want anyone saying hey your losing size bro, we dont like hearing that. maintain is not a word we like either. very hard to deal with emotionally

Jugghead · May 27, 2011

maldorf said:
Those all help IMO, but I was on the fish oil and blood pressure meds when I had my clot. I was also taking baby aspirin too. There are so many things that can go wrong in your body that there is noway in hell you can stop them all. All you can do is do the most you can do and hope for the best. If youre going to play with high doses over a lenghty timespan you are going to experience a risk.
If youre playing this game though you gotta medicate or supplement to help take care of the sides you are aware of. If you have high blood pressure you sure as hell better see a doc and get on some meds. The problem is there are changes that are going on inside your body, many at the cellular level, that no test can detect and then you only find out about it after the fact, after you have your heart attack or emolisim etc.

Maldorf, were you in Atrial Fibrillation when you went to the hospital/MD office?

maldorf · May 27, 2011

Jugghead said:
Maldorf, were you in Atrial Fibrillation when you went to the hospital/MD office?

Well, when I went to the hospital the first time I was having the heart attack and Im not really sure what arrythmia I was experiencing. All I know is that I had the blockage and I could barely feel my pulse. My BP was like 65/45 or so. Barely any pulse pressure. I did not pass out though.
The 2nd time I was in a bad tachycardia and actually passed out. Not sure about the atria, but my ventricles they said were starting to go into fib after I passed out. THey then shocked me 2x to get me going right again and then I woke up.

BigDaddyBone · May 27, 2011

Maldorf, what do you feel about Nandrolone and its effects on the cardiovascular system?

A couple of studies I read showed considerable damage to cardiac cells in an in-vitro study--scarring in blood vessels, etc.

On the other hand, its been around and seems to be a tried-and-true drug, used and loved by many.

Any insight?

maldorf · May 27, 2011

BigDaddyBone said:
Maldorf, what do you feel about Nandrolone and its effects on the cardiovascular system?

A couple of studies I read showed considerable damage to cardiac cells in an in-vitro study--scarring in blood vessels, etc.

On the other hand, its been around and seems to be a tried-and-true drug, used and loved by many.

Any insight?

I do not know much about it other than my experience. I used it off and on but actually preferred EQ over it. I know both raise the hematocrit/hemoglobin significantly because I always had more trouble with that when on those hormones. There is research that shows AAS in general when used in supraphysiological amounts can cause damage to heart muscle, but I am not sure about specific drugs.

HELLA SWOLE · May 27, 2011

maldorf said:
Well, when I went to the hospital the first time I was having the heart attack and Im not really sure what arrythmia I was experiencing. All I know is that I had the blockage and I could barely feel my pulse. My BP was like 65/45 or so. Barely any pulse pressure. I did not pass out though.
The 2nd time I was in a bad tachycardia and actually passed out. Not sure about the atria, but my ventricles they said were starting to go into fib after I passed out. THey then shocked me 2x to get me going right again and then I woke up.

Were you having symptoms of Tachy before hand also? Or A fib? Reason I ask is the irregular beat increase chances of clot and thus blockage also. Reason being, the irregular heart beat induces irregular movement of blood, thus creating hemolysis (blood cell damage) due to turbulent flow (this is also how aneurysms are started in weak vessels). Hemolysis releases prothrombin (a clotting chemical) which produces thrombin, which converts into fibrinogen and then fibrin, forming a fibrin clot. This is kind of how the clotting cascade works.

Tachy, A fib, high BP, RBC / platelet count (which is increased on gear), all can contribute to inducing the clotting cascade which all starts with blood cell damage. Now...you add stenotic (narrowed) arteries into the equation from atherosclerosis (fat build up on vascular walls from bad cholesterol - also can be caused by gear- or genetics o r bad eating) then you have a perfect equation for a heart attack. The stenotic vessels mean that the clot doesn't have to be near as large as it would otherwise to create a blockage.

Only reason I know this stuff is I sell medical implants / prosthetics for open heart surgeries. I am in surgery watching CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) and valve reconstruction / replacement surgeries 3-4 times per week. Most patients that I see are obese, smokers, old, or steroid users or a mixture of the above. However, some just have bad genetics and are none of the above. I will say that the smokers have the worst anatomical integrity as far as the health of their arterial vessels that are being grafted to the heart to re-route a blocked artery. DON"T SMOKE...especially if you use gear!

maldorf · May 27, 2011

HELLA SWOLE said:
Were you having symptoms of Tachy before hand also? Or A fib? Reason I ask is the irregular beat increase chances of clot and thus blockage also. Reason being, the irregular heart beat induces irregular movement of blood, thus creating hemolysis (blood cell damage) due to turbulent flow (this is also how aneurysms are started in weak vessels). Hemolysis releases prothrombin (a clotting chemical) which produces thrombin, which converts into fibrinogen and then fibrin, forming a fibrin clot. This is kind of how the clotting cascade works.

Tachy, A fib, high BP, RBC / platelet count (which is increased on gear), all can contribute to inducing the clotting cascade which all starts with blood cell damage. Now...you add stenotic (narrowed) arteries into the equation from atherosclerosis (fat build up on vascular walls from bad cholesterol - also can be caused by gear- or genetics o r bad eating) then you have a perfect equation for a heart attack. The stenotic vessels mean that the clot doesn't have to be near as large as it would otherwise to create a blockage.

Only reason I know this stuff is I sell medical implants / prosthetics for open heart surgeries. I am in surgery watching CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) and valve reconstruction / replacement surgeries 3-4 times per week. Most patients that I see are obese, smokers, old, or steroid users or a mixture of the above. However, some just have bad genetics and are none of the above. I will say that the smokers have the worst anatomical integrity as far as the health of their arterial vessels that are being grafted to the heart to re-route a blocked artery. DON"T SMOKE...especially if you use gear!

All great points you make but I had none of those problems. What I did find out after the heart attack though was that I have a genetic clotting problem, prothrombin disorder. It is one of the clotting factors you mentioned in the cascade. THing about it is though that most people go their entire lives and never know that they had it. It turns out my mother has it, I made both of my parents get tested. She is 72 yrs old and never had an issue and so she didnt know she had it.
The doctors think it was the combination of the steroids, which increase some of the clotting factors, and my genetic condition.
I had no narrowing or atherosclerosis of my arteries, in fact they didnt have any stents big enough to fit my artery because it was so wide. So all they had to do on me was suction out the clot and then they put me on an IV blood thinner which the name escapes me right now. So I had not stenosis.
I never did suffer from any arrythmias until after the heart attack which damaged my heart so bad. I had quite a few ekgs, including a stress and halter monitor, years prior to my heart attack. You see, I developed cardiomyopathy after years of steroid use and was in bad shape. I had a 30% EF, much like what happend to Pekkerwood and Chris on here. As in their cases, once I got off the drugs my heart recovered to near normal. I got back up to about 55%. I was on benicar an ace inhibitor to control BP and had been on it a few years prior to the cardiomyopathy, so my bp was normal. After being clean for a year I couldnt resist the temptation any more and got back on steroids again. I blamed the heart trouble on a virus or some fluke, there was noway it could have been the steriods! After all,show me the bodies!!! Even when I had the cardiomyopathy my rhythm was normal in all tests, but I did have a high resting heart rate because my heart was functioning so low. once I got my function back the tachycardia went away.
Up to the day of my heart attack, which was about 3-4 yrs after I had the cardiomyopathy, my heart was beating just fine. We think that maybe it was the stress of doing the heavy squats that might have dislodged a small piece of plaque and then my blood just went ape shit on that and caused a clot, since I have the clotting disorder and was on the hormones. My hemoglobin at the time was only about 15 or so because I had just done a phlebotomy.

aqrojase · May 27, 2011

ssdark1 said:
IMO, 1250 mgs total a week isnt exactly playing the game with caution.

Well it's better then pumping 4000mgs a week. It's never going to be absoultly safe taking AAS at almost any dose. There's also risk with 250mg, but the question is what type of gains do you want. The reason I am doing AAS is to get that freaky above average look. So I am not going to mess with 500mg a week to just get a decent beach body look. I am also not going to mess with 3000mg a week to get the freaky look. So around 1250 total AAS a week is in my point of view a decent amount to get the freaky look, but at the same time not as bad as pumping 3000mg a week.

My philosphy is if I am going to play this game..then I am going play it well...and not just play it half ass...or balls to wall.

aphextwin · May 27, 2011

Maldorf,

After everything you have gone through, what advise would you give a person considering AAS for the first time?

ssdark1 · May 27, 2011

aqrojase said:
Well it's better then pumping 4000mgs a week. It's never going to be absoultly safe taking AAS at almost any dose. There's also risk with 250mg, but the question is what type of gains do you want. The reason I am doing AAS is to get that freaky above average look. So I am not going to mess with 500mg a week to just get a decent beach body look. I am also not going to mess with 3000mg a week to get the freaky look. So around 1250 total AAS a week is in my point of view a decent amount to get the freaky look, but at the same time not as bad as pumping 3000mg a week.

My philosphy is if I am going to play this game..then I am going play it well...and not just play it half ass...or balls to wall.

I can absolutely relate to this perspective, but with this line of thinking I could say that 4000mg a week is better than 7000mg a week. You are justifying. not trying to point the finger at you, I do the same damn thing...have to catch myself doing it. 1250 is not playing it safe in my book BUT, you may be just fine and I suffer some health issues from 3-500. who knows?

aqrojase · May 27, 2011

aphextwin said:
Maldorf,

After everything you have gone through, what advise would you give a person considering AAS for the first time?

Don't start at all, because once you do..you will never stop. If you're passionate about working out and you take AAS...you're hooked for life. Well until you get some serious side effect.

sure you will hear some people start and they are able to stop. But these are the same people that don't even really workout. They just join the gym for two months and buy a bottle of test or dbol from a friend.

I am just messing with you on the "Dont start part", but the reality is once you start...you will never stop.

aqrojase · May 27, 2011

ssdark1 said:
I can absolutely relate to this perspective, but with this line of thinking I could say that 4000mg a week is better than 7000mg a week. You are justifying. not trying to point the finger at you, I do the same damn thing...have to catch myself doing it. 1250 is not playing it safe in my book BUT, you may be just fine and I suffer some health issues from 3-500. who knows?

Yeah it's a lot, but I am also taking every health support supplement and med under the sun. my morning ritual will scare the novice person..when they see how many pills are being popped lol.