Do you use protein powder? Yes? No? Why?

[Elvia1023]

I went many months without any protein shakes (not counting EAA's intra training) but I have started having 1 synthepure shake daily recently. I might add in a 2nd shake because it's so easy and I fill them full of good ingredients I digest easily. I usually give my dog Flex a little bit as well and he loves them A local shop sells frozen fruit and they have some really good mixes. I have been using a pineapple, apple, kale and spinach mix and with that I usually add frozen blueberries, oats and almond milk. I haven't been drinking loads of fluids so these shakes help with that too as they are all 1.5 litres and usually contain atleast 60g protein from synthepure.

 

[Hyperemia]

Being lactose fucking blows! I still take 50grams a day of isolate. I have been doing overnight oats for my first meal or pre workout and the stuff is pretty tasty. I definitely recommend finding a recipe of your own

Take one or two of these with your whey and you’ll be fine.

https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-fast-acting-lactase%2C-180-caplets.product.100096414.html

 

[qbkilla]

So, if you're thinking about ditching whey protein after your workouts and going for chicken instead, here are some things to consider:

Both whey protein and chicken are great sources of protein, but they work a bit differently. Whey protein is like lightning fast in getting into your system and helping with recovery right after your workout. On the other hand, chicken takes a bit longer to digest since it's a whole food.

Chicken's not just about protein, though. It's got some extra goodies like vitamins (B and D) and minerals (iron and zinc) that can give you more than just protein benefits.

When it comes to ease, whey protein wins the convenience game. Just mix it with water or milk, and you're good to go. Chicken requires some cooking, so it might not be as quick and easy, especially when you're on the move.

Now, think about what you like and what your body can handle. Some people love the taste of chicken more than shakes, while others prefer the other way around. Also, if you're lactose intolerant or have allergies, whey might not be your best friend.
Make sure you're getting enough protein and other essential stuff to keep your fitness game strong.

Good post and true info. But from what I understand the need to get aminos to the muscle asap after training is a bit overrated, assuming someone hasn't been fasting and has a high protein meal pre-work. As long as someone isn't waiting 6 hours to eat after training I don't think eating chicken vs whey will matter. Now if they use slin pre or post the benefit of immediate fast digestion pro carbs is more important.

 

[IronFist]

i still use synthepure in my cooking , its a good whey to add more protein to each meal

its lactose-gluten free and flavorless , so perfect to add to recipes!

 

[Mike Arnold]

I think I'd rather have a diverse amount of aminos as opposed to BCAA's with a sprinkle of other aminos.

I think I'd rather have a diverse amount of aminos as opposed to BCAA's with a sprinkle of other aminos.

IMPORTANT info about EAAs (if you buy EAA products, read this)​

Since I saw you guys debating, this response is addressed to both you and Hyperemia:

The question at hand is "Is it better for an EAA product to contain a high percentage of BCAAs (leucine is the most important of the three) relative to the other EAAs...or should the product contain a more balanced ratio of EAAs?" The answer is "it depends". I explain below.

When consuming low doses of EAAs (10 grams or under) it is better for the product to contain a higher percentage of leucine relative to the other EAAs. In these low dose formulations, 5 grams is fine, but 6 grams would be a bit better due to competition for absorption. Still, 5 grams is pretty good. After that, the rest of the formula should be as balanced possible. Why is this important? Because leucine is the primary EAA responsible for stimulating protein synthesis. However, all 9 EAAs must be present in order to actually build muscle tissue. Leucine provides the signal to build muscle, but that growth will only occur if the remaining 8 EAAs (building bocks) are available for growth. So, a properly formulated low-dose EAA product should contain a large dose of leucine, followed by a balanced dose of the other 8 EAAs. When taking low dose products, it is not necessary...and even counterproductive, to take more isoleucine and valine than is needed to balance the ratio, as taking more than needed leaves the body with less available substrate (building blocks) to work with. Remember, an EAA product can only build as much muscle as the limiting amino acid allows for. The "limiting amino acid" is the amino acid that runs out first. As soon as the body runs out of even one of the 9 EAAs, muscle growth stops. So, if we add more isoleucine and valine than is needed to balance the ratio, the body is going to encounter a "limiting amino acid" situation more quickly, thereby rendering the remaining EAAs useless.

Once larger dose EAA products are being consumed (such as proSynthesis-17, which is massively more effective by every metric), it is still important to take an optimal dose of leucine (ProSynthesis-17 contains 6.5 grams), but once your EAA dose reaches a certain point, the large leucine dose actually becomes balanced with the remainder of the formula. That point is reached at 25 grams. Once you reach the 25 grams threshold, 5 grams of leucine is required in order to "balance" the ratio, but as stated previously, competition for absorption requires the dose to be pushed a bit higher (hence, the 6.5 gram found in ProSynthesis-17). The point here is that a properly balanced 25 gram dose of EAAs will already contain the maximum dose of leucine required in order to optimally stimulate protein synthesis, but will provide the body with MUCH more substrate. How much more?

Let's look at the typical 8 gram EAA product. If 5 grams of that product is comprised of leucine, that leaves a MAXIMUM of 3 grams of the other 8 EAAs for growth, but in reality it's usually lower than that because most companies add too much isoleucine and valine. So, that 3 grams usually becomes 1-2 grams of available building blocks. Think about that. Your only supplying the body with 1-2 grams of balanced substrate to work with.

Now...here is the real mindblower...and it it the MOST IMPORTANT piece of information you will probably ever learn about EAA products. BALANCE! Yes, I addressed balance above as it pertains to isoleucine and valine, but the situation is MUCH more dire than that. I'm telling you. If there is one piece of information you need to know about today's EAA products, it is the following....

As mentioned above, the body uses the 9 EAAs in a SET RATIO. If you want to incorporate your EAAs into muscle tissue, they MUST be present in that ratio. As soon as the body runs out of even one of those EAAs, growth stops...completely. This is why EAA efficiency is so important. EAA efficiency is defined as the percentage of amino acids, within a given dose, that can be incorporated into muscle tissue. Therefore, the more efficient a product is, the better it is. There is no disputing this. It is simplistic fact. The more efficient an EAA product is, the better it is. Does anyone want a product with only 50% efficiency? No way. No one wants that. Therefore, amino acid efficiency, which is directly determined by the amino acid ratio, is of VITAL importance.

So, what if I told you that 99% of all the the EAA products on the market today have a muscle building efficiency of about 5%? Not 50%. 5%. What if I told you that in the best cases it is only about 10%...and in the worst cases, it is about 1-2%. Hard to believe? Well, it's the truth...and the proof is right on the label. Look at the methionine dose of whatever EAA product you have right now. Read it. In all likelihood, your product either contains barely any methionine...or it doesn't even tell you how much is in there. If your EAA product is a prop blend, that is a bad, BAD sign. Prop bends in an EAA product is like a cardinal sin because the amino acid ratio is the SOLE factor responsible for determining how effective the product is. By failing to disclose the dose of each EAA, the company is essentially refusing to tell you how effective their product is. For all you know, it could contain the worst EAA ratio on earth....and that probably isn't too far away from the truth...because even the companies that do disclose their doses are almost always horribly deficient in methionine.

Let's look at a typical product. If you wanted to balance a 10 gram serving if EAAs, it would need to include about 600-700 mg of methionine. 600-700 mg. What does your product say? 50 mg? 20 mg? 10 mg? 5 mg? I can nearly guarantee that it is no more than 50 mg....and it's probably closer to 10-20 mg, but let's use 50 mg as an example. If your product contains only 50 mg f methionine, it means your product contains only 1/12th to 1/14 of the proper dose. That means your product has an EAA efficiency of only 7.1% to 8.3%...and that is in the best case scenario. This means that only 7.1%-8.3% of your product can be use for muscle growth. Once your body uses up that small amount of methionine, you will run into the "limiting amino acid" issue and the rest of your EAAs will sit there doing NOTHING! They're useless.

At that point, the only way to be able to use the remaining EAAs for growth is to consume additional amino acids in the form of protein shakes or whole food...and by the time those amino acids hit the bloodstream, the EAAs from your EAA product will be long gone--metabolized. Why even buy an EAA product if you can only use a teeny-tiny percentage of it? Why buy a product that requires you to consume additional proteins first? Doesn't that defeat the entire point of an EAA product? EAA products were designed to supply a quick burst of amino acids into the bloodstream in order to stimulate and SUSTAIN growth? Well, your product probably isn't doing that. If your product contains even less methionine...like 20 mg or 10 mg, the situation is even worse, but does it really even matter at that point? Even at 50 mg, the situation is already laughable. At 10-20 mg, it is like the company is purposely trying to screw you. This is why I said earlier that most EAA products today have an average efficiency of 5%, at best. What a waste.

This begs the question "why do companies formulate EAA product like this". Simple. MONEY!!! You see, methionine tastes bad...and they think your dumb enough to buy a horrible, ineffective product simply because it tastes good. They think that if their product tastes better than the competition, people will just buy their stuff, despite the fact it sucks dick. And you know what? They're mostly right. That's exactly what most people do. They don't bother to do any research into the importance of amino acid ratios. Rather, they just trust the company to make a good product.

The take home message is three-fold. One, your current EAA product probably sucks. Two, most supplement companies don't give a rat's ass about making effective products. They just want your money. three, many formulators have no idea what they're doing. They just copy off other companies.

This one alone is more than enough reason to look into ProSynthesis-17. You will be able to use 100% of the 35 gram dose to build muscle. Its near 100% efficiency combined with a much larger serving size makes ProSynthesis infinitely more effective. In terms of cost-effectiveness, other products aren't even close. I have ZERO problem using this conversation as a platform to recommend my product because I know (and can definitively prove, with ease) that ProSynthesis-17 is way more effective than any other EAA product out there, but even if someone decides to never buy it for whatever reason...and they still continue using other EAA products, they most definitely need to supplement with additional methionine (encapsulated or powder) every time they use another EAA product. Tryptophan shortage is also usually an issue with most EAA products, but normally not as bad. Honestly, the entire ratio of most products is a mess (for many reasons, all of which I could elaborate on in detail), but additional methionine supplementation is mandatory.

 

[Hyperemia]

If your EAA product is a prop blend, that is a bad, BAD sign. Prop bends in an EAA product is like a cardinal sin because the amino acid ratio is the SOLE factor responsible for determining how effective the product is. By failing to disclose the dose of each EAA, the company is essentially refusing to tell you how effective their product is. For all you know, it could contain the worst EAA ratio on earth....and that probably isn't too far away from the truth...

Thanks for coming in and clarifying things Mike.

The above is really the point I was trying to make but couldn’t articulate it as well as you did. The other thing that worries me about a Prop Blend is that even with a certificate of analysis from today, the amount of EAAs in the formula could change at any moment and they wouldn’t have to change the label or inform the consumer. To me, when I see a Prop Blend for a product like EAAs, it shows that they are not being transparent and more likely than not it’s because their product is inferior.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Actually BCAAs are more expensive from Bulk Supplements than their "proprietary blend" EAAs. Let’s look at the 1kg bag on both, since that’s the only size they share via Bulk Supplements Amazon store. The BCAA product is about 10% more expensive.
You're correct about this. The BCAAs are more costly to manufacturer than EAAs in general.

Although Leucine is the most potent mTORC1 activator, it is actually potentiated by the other two BCAAs Isoluceine and Valine. 2:1:1 is the agreed upon optimal dosing.
Yes, leucine is the primary activator of mTOR, but truth be told, other EAAs are better at this than valine and isoleucine, such as methionine and arginine. Even some CEAAs are better, such as glutamine, which works through the Rag-mTOR pathway. Even asparagine activates mTOR, but NOT in the presence of leucine. This is why asparagine should never be included in an EAA product. Valine and isoleucine have other benefits, no doubt, but we've now learned that taking more valine and isoleucine than is necessary (to balance the ratio) is actually counterproductive. We even have research which shows that taking extra valine and isoleucine, in the presence of leucine, DIMINISHES leucine's ability to activate mTOR.

We did NOT know this even a few years back, so you would be forgiven for thinking this. We used to think that taking extra valine and isoleucine was beneficial, which is why so many companies still do it.

See bold-red above.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Thanks for coming in and clarifying things Mike.

The above is really the point I was trying to make but couldn’t articulate it as well as you did. The other thing that worries me about a Prop Blend is that even with a certificate of analysis from today, the amount of EAAs in the formula could change at any moment and they wouldn’t have to change the label or inform the consumer. To me, when I see a Prop Blend for a product like EAAs, it shows that they are not being transparent and more likely than not it’s because their product is inferior.

Exactly.

When it comes to certain categories of supplementation, such as neuromodulators/stimulants, prop blends are less worrisome because we can judge the product based by how we feel and perform, but when it comes to a category like EAAs, we NEED to know the ratio because it is the sole determining factors of their effectiveness. Being able to adjust the "prop blend" at any time based on availability issues, cost, etc., is not good.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yeah I guess even the most skewed ratio should get you covered with 40 grams

That's a damn large dose. It's pretty awesome.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I like EAAs and BCAAs, we’ll I love them but above all imo when I daily mega dose leucine the results are awesome better than when I take a balanced approach as well.

The best way to go is a massive overall dose of EAAs, which includes a whopping dose of leucine. This way, you optimize leucine's protein synthesis stimulating signal AND you get a bunch of building blocks (the other 8 EAAs).

In short, ratio becomes more important as the EAA dose rises. When taking small doses the leucine does should be prioritized, but once you get past 10 grams, ratio starts to make a big difference. If you want to gain a better perspective on this subject, read my long post above.

 

[Hyperemia]

We even have research which shows that taking extra valine and isoleucine, in the presence of leucine, DIMINISHES leucine's ability to activate mTOR.

We did NOT know this even a few years back, so you would be forgiven for thinking this. We used to think that taking extra valine and isoleucine was beneficial, which is why so many companies still do it.

I just went and checked the paper I was using for reference and you're right, it's from 7 years ago, 2016. Alright, learned something new today.

What I also neglected to notice was that the study used separate ingestions over the course of 170 min. The Papers making your point, were taking the EAAs in a large bolus, the same as we would as bodybuilders, so it's obviously more relevant to this discussion.

Activation of mTORC1 by leucine is potentiated by branched-chain amino acids and even more so by essential amino acids following resistance exercise

 

[Mike Arnold]

Humapro? Pretty sure that was their marketing line

Yeah, but that product actually sucked. LOL. And, their ratio was shit. I don't know how they came up with that one.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I think I agree with Hyperemia, besides complete animal protein sources, a casein/whey blend, and if you want to go nuts (and can stand the horrific taste, Leucine) is really going to maximize muscle protein synthesis... My view, too, is that AAS reduce the need for higher protein intakes.

There is some general misunderstanding regarding the importance of ratios vs. leucine. Both are super important and intertwined, but the relative degree of importance begins to change as the overall EAA dose rises. I elaborate on this in my post above (the long one).

 

[Mike Arnold]

I just went and checked the paper I was using for reference and you're right, it's from 7 years ago, 2016. Alright, learned something new today.

What I also neglected to notice was that the study used separate ingestions over the course of 170 min. The Papers making your point, were taking the EAAs in a large bolus, the same as we would as bodybuilders, so it's obviously more relevant to this discussion.

Activation of mTORC1 by leucine is potentiated by branched-chain amino acids and even more so by essential amino acids following resistance exercise

It's a complex subject...and there are so many interconnected factors that can change things, that possessing even a moderate understanding of this subject takes about 3 months of research and learning. It's a pain in the ass. For example, we know that 5 grams of leucine, when taken alone on an empty stomach, optimizes the protein synthesis signal. However, when that same dose of leucine is combined with other EAAs, including valine or isoleucine, leucine's ability to signal protein synthesis is diminished. Why? Competition for absorption. This is why some companies got away from the 2:1:1 ratio and started using a 4:11 or even a 10:1:1 ratio.

However, this diminishing effect only applies when using 5 grams of leucine. If we raise the dose of leucine enough to offset competition for absorption, it becomes a non-issue. But...if you ask most people about this subject, they won't know this. They possess a black and white understanding, but in reality, it is NOT black and white situation.

It's just like the leucine vs. balance debate. It's not black of white. The situation changes as the overall EAA dose rises.

Furthermore, mTOR activation is not limited only to what leucine can accomplish. Other amino acids, as the study link you posted indicates, can and do contribute...depending on the circumstances. On top of that, direct mTOR is hardly the only growth pathway influenced by EAAs. There's a bunch of different ways in which various amino acids can further stimulate growth.

With all that said, I wouldn't really say you were "wrong" about your previous statement. Rather, you were only wrong within the context of a typical low-dose EAA product. It's easy to fool most people when it comes to this subject...because most people don't have to time to sit at the computer reading PubMed all day. This is why supplement companies have been screwing people for ears. I see so much crap that it's sickening. Many companies truly only care about the money. They only care about product effectiveness in as much as it influences sales.

 

[Hyperemia]

It's a complex subject...and there are so many interconnected factors that can change things, that possessing even a moderate understanding of this subject takes about 3 months of research and learning. It's a pain in the ass. For example, we know that 5 grams of leucine, when taken alone on an empty stomach, optimizes the protein synthesis signal. However, when that same dose of leucine is combined with other EAAs, including valine or isoleucine, leucine's ability to signal protein synthesis is diminished. Why? Competition for absorption. This is why some companies got away from the 2:1:1 ratio and started using a 4:11 or even a 10:1:1 ratio.

However, this diminishing effect only applies when using 5 grams of leucine. If we raise the dose of leucine enough to offset competition for absorption, it becomes a non-issue. But...if you ask most people about this subject, they won't know this. They possess a black and white understanding, but in reality, it is NOT black and white situation.

It's just like the leucine vs. balance debate. It's not black of white. The situation changes as the overall EAA dose rises.

Furthermore, mTOR activation is not limited only to what leucine can accomplish. Other amino acids, as the study link you posted indicates, can and do contribute...depending on the circumstances. On top of that, direct mTOR is hardly the only growth pathway influenced by EAAs. There's a bunch of different ways in which various amino acids can further stimulate growth.

With all that said, I wouldn't really say you were "wrong" about your previous statement. Rather, you were only wrong within the context of a typical low-dose EAA product. It's easy to fool most people when it comes tot his subject...which is why supplement companies have been doing it for ears. I see so much crap that it's sickening. Many companies truly only care about the money. They only care about product effectiveness in as much as it influences sales.

Thanks Mike, your ability to articulate complex subjects in simpler terms is really appreciated.

 

[weedle]

After reading this thread I’m surprised anyone was ever able to grow muscle before the advent of eaa supplementation.

 

[Mike Arnold]

After reading this thread I’m surprised anyone was ever able to grow muscle before the advent of eaa supplementation.

EAA supplementation has always been part of every bodybuilder's program. The only difference is that, in prior years, bodybuilders got them from whole food or protein powders. Now we can consume them in pure form. EAA powders certainly have benefit...and they most certainly have their rightful place in a bodybuilder's program. After all, they are the foundational components of bodybuilding nutrition itself.

Remember when people use to say that "protein powders" were unnecessary and to just eat whole food? Well, we now know that protein powders have a lot of advantages for a lot of people and as a result, they have become a staple nutritional component for the MAJORITY of the bodybuilding community. EAAs are no different. They are just at an earlier part of their journey, but just like protein powders, EAA powders will eventually becomes a permanent staple of the bodybuilding community. Anything with real benefit eventually does (protein powders, creatine, and now EAA powders).

This is coming from someone who avoided EAA powders for years; mostly because I thought they were a rip-off...and they often were a rip-off (charging $49 for a product with thirty 3-5 gram servings is freaking atrocious), but we've now entered the era were much more cost-effective formulations have entered the game. That is what needed to happen in order for them to become staple items.

 

[Sully1234]

​

Let's look at the typical 8 gram EAA product. If 5 grams of that product is comprised of leucine, that leaves a MAXIMUM of 3 grams of the other 8 EAAs for growth, but in reality it's usually lower than that because most companies add too much isoleucine and valine. So, that 3 grams usually becomes 1-2 grams of available building blocks. Think about that. Your only supplying the body with 1-2 grams of balanced substrate to work with.

@Hyperemia This is kinda what I was trying to get at just couldn't really articulate well lol. Thanks Mike.

 

[Sully1234]

I think I agree with Hyperemia, besides complete animal protein sources, a casein/whey blend, and if you want to go nuts (and can stand the horrific taste, Leucine) is really going to maximize muscle protein synthesis... My view, too, is that AAS reduce the need for higher protein intakes.

Got it, appreciate the input.

 

[Hyperemia]

@Hyperemia This is kinda what I was trying to get at just couldn't really articulate well lol. Thanks Mike.

I get what you're saying but I still stand by my initial response on Proprietary Blend EAAs. More often than not, you get what you pay for. You have to ask yourself, why did they choose not to be transparent on their labels? My guess is that so they can change the Proprietary Blend at anytime due to availability or cost. You don't know exactly what you're getting every time. Not worth the cost saving.

If your EAA product is a prop blend, that is a bad, BAD sign. Prop bends in an EAA product is like a cardinal sin because the amino acid ratio is the SOLE factor responsible for determining how effective the product is. By failing to disclose the dose of each EAA, the company is essentially refusing to tell you how effective their product is. For all you know, it could contain the worst EAA ratio on earth....and that probably isn't too far away from the truth...

When it comes to certain categories of supplementation, such as neuromodulators/stimulants, prop blends are less worrisome because we can judge the product based by how we feel and perform, but when it comes to a category like EAAs, we NEED to know the ratio because it is the sole determining factors of their effectiveness. Being able to adjust the "prop blend" at any time based on availability issues, cost, etc., is not good.