Estro at 476

[Steve708]

My bad. Will do now. Good looking out mike036

 

[p-lethal]

It could just as easily be the tren causing the sexual dysfunction, rather than the estrogen. Actually, it is the most likely scenario.

just out of curiosity do you think for that amount of test + hcg is enough? I have only experience with adex and i have to run it at 1mg ed (pharma grade from doc) when on 750-1000mg of test to keep estro at bay.

 

[Steve708]

Yeah that's what I would like to know too. I was gonna go up to half mg arimidex either daily or eod, but definitely want other opinions first. Thanks again guys

 

[Mike Arnold]

10 mg of Aromasin is FAR too little when running that dose of test. 25 mg/day would be the MINIMUM dosage...and in cases where one's test dosage is a gram or more, many guys need to go to 37.5-50 mg/day in order to keep estrogen levels in an optimal range (low to mid-normal).

Aromasin was made to be used at between 25-50 mg/day. All the studies which have been done on men used 25-50 mg/day. Aromasin is not like A-dex or letro--you cannot use only a few mg's and expect it to be effective. It needs to be used at higher dosages. 10 mg daily won't cut it unless you're using like 300-400 mg of test/week.

Lastly, do NOT switch to another AI, as the other AI''s screw with lipids. Aromasin is the only AI which wont damage the lipid profile. With BB'rs already being at risk for cardiovascular health problems, and with poor cholesterol readings being at the forefront of the problem, adding another substance which will make the problem even worse is a moronic idea.

Aromasin should be the ONLY AI used, aside from very limited circumstances, such as a few weeks before a show or when trying to deal with problematic gyno. In those cases, letro is more effective, but when simply trying to control estrogen levels, Aromasin should be you mainstay.

 

[p-lethal]

Yeah that's what I would like to know too. I was gonna go up to half mg arimidex either daily or eod, but definitely want other opinions first. Thanks again guys

honestly only labs will tell but if the tren is causing a false positive on your readings its gonna be hard.

 

[Mike Arnold]

just out of curiosity do you think for that amount of test + hcg is enough? I have only experience with adex and i have to run it at 1mg ed (pharma grade from doc) when on 750-1000mg of test to keep estro at bay.

Not sure if I am understanding the question properly. Are you asking if 10 mg of Aromasin is a high enough dose for a gram of test? If so, then absolutely not!

 

[Steve708]

Huh very informative brother. Question for you, I freaked out and took a half mg arimidex yesterday and another half today from a couple pills I had sitting around from my last cycle. Is that really bad that I did that? And also, you're saying if I take 50mg a day of aromasin, I should be good to go instead of adex right?

 

[heavyhitter]

Shit. This is my first time taking tren at this high of a dosage. Is tren also known to hurt sex drive and appetite, because that's what I was having problems with in first place which made me get tested

Tren definitely doesnt hurt my sex drive. It makes me horny as hell. But it does mess with my appetite and cause some acid reflux

 

[p-lethal]

Not sure if I am understanding the question properly. Are you asking if 10 mg of Aromasin is a high enough dose for a gram of test? If so, then absolutely not!

my bad when i edited my post i took out AI from the first sentence. that is exactly what i meant. i'm going to talk to my doc and try to get switched over to aromasin.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Huh very informative brother. Question for you, I freaked out and took a half mg arimidex yesterday and another half today from a couple pills I had sitting around from my last cycle. Is that really bad that I did that? And also, you're saying if I take 50mg a day of aromasin, I should be good to go instead of adex right?

You're fine.

I would try 25 mg of Aromasin daily for now, with 12.5 mg in the AM and 12.5 mg in the PM. Aromasin has a short half-life, so if you take your entire dose at once, it will be out of the system by the second half of the day, which will allow estrogen levels to begin climbing. Splitting your dose will provide near all day protection, while giving you better results per mg.

Of course, this is assuming that your Aromasin is not only real, but properly dosed. Tons of research chems out there are shit. Unless a source does lab testing to ensure that the product in question is legitimate in terms of both purity and potency, then you will never have the assurance you deserve.

These chems, when sold as "research" chemicals by peptide/research companies, are not illegal, so there is no reason a company should not be able to send off each batch for lab testing. Most just don't want to spend the money...and personally, I would stay away from buying AI's from UGL's, as almost none of them do mass spec testing on their AI's. Knowing this, why on Earth would someone buy a drug from a source which cannot provide any verification of legitimacy, when there are peptide/research companies out there which DO provide this type of assurance?

The bottom line is that you should know what you're getting...and when ordering products which are not illegal, there is ZERO reason to buy from a source which does not offer this assurance.

 

[Steve708]

Not sure if this is allowed to be asked here, if not I'll delete it. But does anyone know if Olympus aromasin is g2g? After being advised to stay on aromasin and just increase dose, I wanna make sure my stuff isn't bunk before I keep taking it

 

[Swifto]

It doesn't really raise your e2, it just gives a false high reading

Why?

What data backs this up?

Trenbolone isn't Estrogen and thats what the test is for.

 

[mike036]

Why?

What data backs this up?

Trenbolone isn't Estrogen and thats what the test is for.

Just do a search and you will see that it causes a false high reading .

 

[Stewie]

You do realize the data is mixed and inconclusive on the adverse effects on lipid profiles between different AI's. See below.

Some say Aromasin has negative impact on lipids, some say Anastrozle has no impact on lipids. Even letrozole stating both sides of the coin.

Incidentally several things have a detrimental effect on lipids. One being the individuals genetic metabolism and expression of HMG-CoA reductase, which is an enzyme in the liver involved in the production of cholesterol. As well the efficacy of metabolizing enzymes of many hormonal reactants. Not to mention uncontrolled OSA's effects on lipid parameters.

It's the individual.

Lastly, being on a cycle has it's own adverse effects on lipids. Why people get hung up on any one particular AI being tauted as the demon on lipids, is beyond me.

British Journal of Cancer - The effects of aromatase inhibitors on lipids and thrombosis

Available data are mixed, but suggest that the different aromatase inhibitors have different effects on lipid profiles. Some studies show anastrozole as generally having little effect on lipids, while others have indicated adverse effects on lipid profiles/increased hypercholesterolaemia.

**broken link removed**
Anastrozole treatment has no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane have an unfavorable effect. From indirect comparisons, anastrozole shows the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane, in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis

**broken link removed**
Conclusion: Anastrozole did not have a detrimental effect on lipid profiles following 3 months of therapy. There was a significant increase in CTx with anastrozole in contrast to tamoxifen.

Effect of Letrozole on Plasma Lipids, Triglycerides, and Estradiol in Postmenopausal Women with Metastatic Breast Cancer
Letrozole has a safe effect on the lipid and TGL profiles of postmenopausal women with MBC. Estradiol levels were maximally suppressed within 6 months of treatment. The increased levels of TC during treatment were reversible and returned to normal levels after 3 months.

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipid... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSIONS: While short-term administration of anastrozole is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

The effect of exemestane, anastrozole, ... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSION: Changes of lipid profiles in Japanese postmenopausal women treated with tamoxifen were relatively favorable, while exemestane and anastrozole had no clinically significant effect on the serum lipids.

10 mg of Aromasin is FAR too little when running that dose of test. 25 mg/day would be the MINIMUM dosage...and in cases where one's test dosage is a gram or more, many guys need to go to 37.5-50 mg/day in order to keep estrogen levels in an optimal range (low to mid-normal).

Aromasin was made to be used at between 25-50 mg/day. All the studies which have been done on men used 25-50 mg/day. Aromasin is not like A-dex or letro--you cannot use only a few mg's and expect it to be effective. It needs to be used at higher dosages. 10 mg daily won't cut it unless you're using like 300-400 mg of test/week.

Lastly, do NOT switch to another AI, as the other AI''s screw with lipids. Aromasin is the only AI which wont damage the lipid profile. With BB'rs already being at risk for cardiovascular health problems, and with poor cholesterol readings being at the forefront of the problem, adding another substance which will make the problem even worse is a moronic idea.

Aromasin should be the ONLY AI used, aside from very limited circumstances, such as a few weeks before a show or when trying to deal with problematic gyno. In those cases, letro is more effective, but when simply trying to control estrogen levels, Aromasin should be you mainstay.

 

[Steve708]

Thanks again brothers. I just ordered adex because I used that every other cycle and never had problems with it, and this is my first time using aromasin and my levels are nuts. Last question I have for you guys. Being on a gram of test and tren 600, you think I should run half mg eod like I did my other cycles, or should I do that amount daily. I know it's hard to say for sure and blood work after doing it is the only for sure way to find out, but can anyone give me an estimated guess what amount I should use, so I can wait a month or two before getting more blood work, and yet not screw my levels up in the meantime

 

[Ehren]

This isn't my info, but KALADRYN'S...explains how Tren is read as E2, pretty well.

From Kal,

"I have seen at least a dozen examples of this happening, E2 levels higher than should be possible on the amount of test given, person reporting no side effects from E2.

The answer is pretty simple, first Tren can actually activate the Estrogen Receptor, this means that it is shaped and polarized like E2 enough to actually fit correctly into the ER and activate it. Second, E2 is measured using ELISA methodology. You can read about it here:

ELISA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not the traditional Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer way to identifying a substance (which could easily tell the difference between estradiol and tren). It is basically an enzyme that reacts with the substance. If tren can fool the ER, then tren can fool ELISA methodology.

ELISA methodology is fooled by other things also, for example, it is used for DHT levels, and Anavar will fool it and show up on bloodwork as DHT. I don't know about other things, but I wouldn't be surprised if many exogenous substances can fool ELISA"

 

[Cerberus777]

AI is an AI. Like Stewie pointed out just as much good and bad for each one....10mg isnt enough, for a gram of test. I think its best to use an AI that the least amount is needed with the least sides. Aromastin gives me GI issues and I metabolize it to quickly.

The tren can cause off readings and HGC can increase E2 than an AI cant stop.

I would stop hgc up the aromastin to 25mg a day and retest.

 

[Reno911]

Stewie- why don't more use Nolvadex for on cycle estrogen control due to it's benefits on cholesterol levels ? Most will see a negative shift in lipids at the 600mg/week Test and above so it would make sense to use Nolvadex. I know that there will be some IGF suppression but that can be circumvented with the use of exogenous GH.

Personally, I have a much harder time dialing in my AI dosages than I do with just 20mg/day of Nolva when on a blast.

You do realize the data is mixed and inconclusive on the adverse effects on lipid profiles between different AI's. See below.

Some say Aromasin has negative impact on lipids, some say Anastrozle has no impact on lipids. Even letrozole stating both sides of the coin.

Incidentally several things have a detrimental effect on lipids. One being the individuals genetic metabolism and expression of HMG-CoA reductase, which is an enzyme in the liver involved in the production of cholesterol. As well the efficacy of metabolizing enzymes of many hormonal reactants. Not to mention uncontrolled OSA's effects on lipid parameters.

It's the individual.

Lastly, being on a cycle has it's own adverse effects on lipids. Why people get hung up on any one particular AI being tauted as the demon on lipids, is beyond me.

 

[Mike Arnold]

You do realize the data is mixed and inconclusive on the adverse effects on lipid profiles between different AI's. See below.

Some say Aromasin has negative impact on lipids, some say Anastrozle has no impact on lipids. Even letrozole stating both sides of the coin.

Incidentally several things have a detrimental effect on lipids. One being the individuals genetic metabolism and expression of HMG-CoA reductase, which is an enzyme in the liver involved in the production of cholesterol. As well the efficacy of metabolizing enzymes of many hormonal reactants. Not to mention uncontrolled OSA's effects on lipid parameters.

It's the individual.

Lastly, being on a cycle has it's own adverse effects on lipids. Why people get hung up on any one particular AI being tauted as the demon on lipids, is beyond me.

British Journal of Cancer - The effects of aromatase inhibitors on lipids and thrombosis

Available data are mixed, but suggest that the different aromatase inhibitors have different effects on lipid profiles. Some studies show anastrozole as generally having little effect on lipids, while others have indicated adverse effects on lipid profiles/increased hypercholesterolaemia.

**broken link removed**
Anastrozole treatment has no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane have an unfavorable effect. From indirect comparisons, anastrozole shows the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane, in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis

**broken link removed**
Conclusion: Anastrozole did not have a detrimental effect on lipid profiles following 3 months of therapy. There was a significant increase in CTx with anastrozole in contrast to tamoxifen.

Effect of Letrozole on Plasma Lipids, Triglycerides, and Estradiol in Postmenopausal Women with Metastatic Breast Cancer
Letrozole has a safe effect on the lipid and TGL profiles of postmenopausal women with MBC. Estradiol levels were maximally suppressed within 6 months of treatment. The increased levels of TC during treatment were reversible and returned to normal levels after 3 months.

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipid... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSIONS: While short-term administration of anastrozole is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

The effect of exemestane, anastrozole, ... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSION: Changes of lipid profiles in Japanese postmenopausal women treated with tamoxifen were relatively favorable, while exemestane and anastrozole had no clinically significant effect on the serum lipids.

Yes, I am aware, as I have read dozens of studies on the subject...and probably everyone you posted here. However, after seeing literally dozens of labs from various individuals over the years, I have drawn my conclusions, as have many others in my position.

Aside from real-world experience, there is also more clinical evidence in favor of Aromasin being lipid friendly in men than the other AI's." So, with both clinical and anecdotal evidence favoring Aromasin in male BB'rs, that will continue to be my recommendation and I suggest others follow suit.

Oh, and I am very much aware that many things we as BB'rs do can negatively impact lipids, which is why we should take every opportunity to minimize potential harm in this area when possible. For that reason, I recommend Aromasin over Letro or A-dex and you should to.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Stewie- why don't more use Nolvadex for on cycle estrogen control due to it's benefits on cholesterol levels ? Most will see a negative shift in lipids at the 600mg/week Test and above so it would make sense to use Nolvadex. I know that there will be some IGF suppression but that can be circumvented with the use of exogenous GH.

Personally, I have a much harder time dialing in my AI dosages than I do with just 20mg/day of Nolva when on a blast.

First of all, Stewie just likes to argue with me whenever he sees the slightest opening, but he is wrong...Aromasin generally DOES have a more favorable impact on lipids in men than Letro or A-dex. Go and ask any number of coaches on this site--guys who have not only read the studies as I have, but have seen plenty of labs from their own clients and others which testify to this fact.

Two, Nolvadex does not lower estrogen levels--at all, which is why people don't use it for estrogen control. It simply prevents estrogen from binding to the receptor, which will prevent certain side effects, such as gyno, but systemic estrogen levels will remain elevated. This means you will still be vulnerable to most of the typical estrogen-mediated side effects, such as water retention, elevated blood pressure, female fat pattern distribution, emotional disturbance, and many others.

So, when you use Nolvadex on-cycle, as you said above, you are not really "dialing" in anything--you are only stopping certain receptor-mediated side effects from occurring, such as gyno, but your estrogen level remains as high as ever, putting you at risk for systemic side effects.

The best advice you are going to get is to use Aromasin for your AI, as it has the most compelling evidence backing its its status as the safest AI in male BB'rs. Now, you can take the next several months confirming this for yourself, or you can just do what myself and any other respectable coach already knows, which is why we all recommend the same. Regardless, I suggest you continue to educate yourself on everything you can in this sport, if you plan on competing and/or using drugs for years to come.