Now that I have time to reply to this in a little more detail.
This whole circumlocutions of babbling makes absolutely no sense, what so ever. I had to edit over half of it out. No relationship to the discussion what so ever
The focal reason it makes no logical sense to you is due to the fact you have zero understanding (that's ok, tho
) of how drugs are catalyze, oxidized, or the hydroxylation through intestinal and
hepatic isoforms of cytochrome P450. More specifically how exmestane is metabolized through the mediated steps of the isoforms: CYP3A4, CYP4A11 and CYP1A1/2. You know what happens if someone has either a unknown genetic defect of either of these isoforms, or take an Rx, supplement or OTC drug that induces or inhibits the intended action?
If it's an inhibitor of CYP3A4 this prolongs the drugs life (exmestane for ex), therefore potentially causing hepatic injury. Thus, resulting in alterations in idiosyncratic reactions to the metabolites of exmestane; potentially causing cholestatic or hepatocellular pattern of enzyme elevations. Therefore negatively effecting one's lipid profile.
Like to the many inhibitors; there are many inducers (speed up metabolism) of isoform CYP3A4, such as acetaminophen or
St. Johns wort. Which theoretically would have minimal impact on lipids if rapidly metabolized. Anastrozle and letrozole holds the same biological reaction as aforementioned, aside from different metabolizing isoforms. The cross-talk between all the aforementioned is intertwined with HMG-CoA reductase. Either be genetic or drug/hormonal induced alterations.
Sorry if you do not understand this, as it is very relevant to all of this discussion. Accept it or not.
At least my babbling relates to the topic of discussion
So you know Mike. Either be you or anyone else that does not understand this. I would not belittle you or anyone else, for the sake to make myself look superior. I would do my best to explain it in layman's terms, as much as possible. With that said, if I stand corrected on any of my findings by someone, I would gracefully accept their new or corrective information. Arrogance is not a trait of mine. Can you say the same? Ever been humbled Mike?
First of all, I was already very well aware that contradictory studies exist regarding the ability if AI's to adversely affect the lipids. But you see, you are one of those people who thinks that if something hasn't been "proven", or remains "inconclusive" from a clinical standpoint, then we can't know the truth about the matter.
I honestly believe you were not aware, as;
1). You would not of stated other AI's are harsh on your lipids.
2). You would not of gone off on these long winded tangents.
Read others accounts, Mike, on their anecdotal evidence. I have, which lead me to look into it a little more in depth. Don't be afraid to learn something new
This is why I currently have 2 doctors, both of whom are actively involved in the BB'ing community (one from this website), hire me to help them achieve their goals--because they understand we are not dealing with a subject that demands, or can even rely on clinical validation alone.
Your physician(s) should know very well on the genetic differences on hepatic clearance. If not they have peers that would.
So, when I tell you that Aromasin is less injurious to the lipids in male BB'rs, I say so not just because of the studies which do exist, but because real-world experience appears to confirm it, as well. At this point, many other respected coaches feel likewise and recommend the same...because they have witnessed the same. Those of us who are involved in this industry, not just post on a board, we make the best decisions we can based on the information that is available to us, and with lots of real-world experience showing Aromasin to have a less injurious to the lipids than A-dex or letro, it only makes sense to go along with the evidence.
Did I say one time it wasn't? You seriously lack reading comprehension skills. I pointed out very well known causes that can change the biological reactions.
So, based on the evidence I have seen, I believe that Aromasin is more mild on lipids in male BB'rs. Does it have the same impact on post-menopausal women (which many of the studies you posted up were done on)? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't, as there are several clinical studies which do show that AI's affect men differently than women in several respects.
So, while you may think that no evidence exists which shows Aromasin to be more mild in male BB'rs, you only think so because you have zero, or next to zero real-world experience in this sport...
I have plenty of experience in this area
More than you'll ever know
Are you really that short-minded that you cannot remember what you've stated on several occasions. Hell it's a few pages back. Reread it again
I look at everything I can before making a decision--clinical evidence (I am nearly certain I have read FAR more studies than you on this subject, as what you posted is only tiny percentage of what exists)
Pretty bold assertion. Bout like the intelligent comment, further down you made.
Over the last 50 years of my life I don't recall you standing over my shoulder looking at what I have researched. By making such assertions by either party is rather hard to validate. Don't ya think?
The difference between you and I is I can interpret a vast majority of the clinical literature I read very well and recognize the different types of study designs. And determine if there's significance or a null point. You look at hypothesis study designs as empirical evidence, claiming it as "compelling evidence"...
Ask your physician(s) or any physician what they think of a hypothesis study with no follow-up studies... Be prepared for a laugh
You can say all you like on how many C.l you've read. There's a huge difference in reading and understanding such things.
At this point, the evidence is compelling enough, at least to me and many others, that I have decided to recommend the use Aromasin during the off-season, although I believe letro is superior for combating letro and drying out before a show, but let me guess, you're going to argue with me about that to, right? Let me spare you the time--there are no studies which showletroworks better for'dryingout".
And this was related to the original discussion, how?
PED use in Bodybuilding is constantly evolving...and sometimes, we find out that something we previously believed is wrong, but much of the conclusions we come to end up being right. In some cases, it is actually science that screws things up and leads people astray. Remember a few years ago when some doctors in the industry were teaching that fasted cardio was actually less beneficial for fat loss than eating before cardio...and they posted a study to prove it, along with a nice explanation to boot? As a result, lots ofBB'rsstopped doing fasted cardio.
And related, how?
The problem with studies is that the conclusions which are drawn are quite often wrong. Poor study design and interpretation is most often to blame, but even though science has contradicted itself more times than we can count, we still see some guys holding up clinical studies as thebe-all,end-allofBB'ingknowledge.
How ironic
Lol... I know of one poorly designed weak study that's considered the holy grail... Funny, huh.
I never said that A-dex always negatively affects the lipids because it doesn't, but it often does. Don't make assumptions. However, I did say that I believe Aromasin is the LEAST injurious, in general, of the 3 most commonly usedAI's.
Reread your post on page 2 post #24
Hum
Lastly, do NOT switch to another AI, as the other AI''s screw with lipids. Aromasin is the only AI which wont damage the lipid profile."
You didn't say what again? Pretty sure that's you, no?
You have a grand tendency to back peddle and state the opposite. I thought Ross was the king of this trait. Boy I was wrong.
Assumption... Bout like the "Can't bust a nut thread." Remember how the op claimed to have used caber in the past. Oh that's right, due to your lack of reading comprehension, I was making assumptions... Slow down and read what people type, Mike. I believe it'll help your credibility, as well not look like an ass
You remind me of a doctor who argued with me once that it took 28,000 extra cals, above and beyond what was normally use for maintenance, to build one single pound of muscle tissue. He posted all sorts of shit I had never even heard of which supposedly supported his statement. While I couldn't refute his argument because I lacked knowledge of the subject matter he was posting about, it was pretty obvious to everyone there that the guy was horribly wrong. When 10,000's of bodybuilders over several decades experience something that completely contradicts a particular claim, it kind of speaks for itself. It's kind of like telling someone that it is impossible to add 100 lbs on their bench in 4 weeks, but then they go and do it, finding out the truth for themselves with a reality that is impossible to deny.
And this is related to AI's and lipids, how?
However, you weren't nearly as intelligent as that man.
That's a cordial comment. That deeply touched my heart. Thank you
Seriously. Again you use a word that means what?
Intelligent?
On what level? Define your idea of intelligent... Please share...
That's a pretty broad use of a word, ya think? You know exclusively about my skill sets or of my academics or my merit achievements? Lol...
I would only hope this fictitious purported doctor is much more intelligent than I in different concentrations of whatever... Heck, I'm only a second year undergraduate student, in anticipation of attaining my M.S in molecular biology.
My 20 year old son that is in med school is much more intelligent than I am in Chem and Finite mathematics. I'm sure in many other areas also.
Like his father, he doesn't have to belittle one due to their lack of understanding or skill sets.
So I don't see your point of that comment, other than you feel possibly intimidated by what I bring forth and you need to try and compare me to a fictitious physician... Good call, Mike...
Apparently not. At least I get paid to be on theboards--whatis your excuse?
Us bottom feeders are not worthy... Shows class, Mike
Here's an internet pat on the back
Oh, and by the way I was invited to this board from Jello, a mod here. Is that a good enough excuse for ya there pal?
Look, if you want respect in this community, there is a right and a wrong way to try an get it. I suggest you do it by making a name for yourself the good ole' fashioned way--by proving yourself in thereal-world.
I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I need all the help I can get to redeem and prove myself. Thanks for the tip
Class act you are
You could get as many degrees as you want, brush up on all the available medical terminology, but without actually being involved in this industry, without putting things to the test in the real-world and seeing what actually works and what doesn't, by working with 100's of people...AND reviewing as much clinical evidence as possible, you will never, ever learn much, nor will you achieve the notoriety you seem to be looking for.
Ok ole Jedi Master
You've got it all figured out...
Knowledge is power
Never hurts to learn something new, sometimes ya have to swallow your pride there Mike
I am sure you will learn quite a bit in your current area of schooling, but it will never make you a good coach, or teach you how to optimally and safely use PED's to achieve the goals of BB'rs/strength athletes/sportsmen. That is what I do. I figure out how to best get the job done. You might be able to write a paper on HMG-CoA reductase, but can you get someone peeled without dropping a pound of muscle? I could go on and on. We both have different skill sets and specialize in different things. You specialize in educating yourself in your non-BB'ing field of study, while I specialize in BB'ing related matters. You will go on to get a job outside of BB'ing, while I will remain here...and that's OK. If you decide you want a career in this community, then pursue it. It is up to you and you will rise or fall based on what you know, just as I have.
At 50 years old I have no desire to become a bodybuilder. My passion is my pursuit on a long endeavor towards being a P.A.
I'll achieve this gracefully aged. Thanks tho.
I'm going to go against my prior comment on involving other members. Kind of.... Certainly not in the same context as you, tho.
I encourage you to read the two links I posted. You'll see Kaladryn pretty much says the same as I on all of this.
Even on Tren and Prolactin
PS: We totally train wreaked the op's thread, sorry. Next time we should take it to a PM, whatca think, Mike
Truthful and hopefully, this'll be our last debate
.gif "IP Gear")
