Fertility after a decade

[bensif]

Hi,

Long term lurker.

My wife and I have been trying to conceive for several years. Last year we had a failed ivf cycle.

At the time my semen analysis was poor; 1m total. Motility was good and morphology was ok at 4%.

I came off fully end of last year. I have been using hcg and hmg at 1500iu / 75iu 3x per week since. More recently I added clomid at 25mg Ed.

Bloods in October and then last week were the same;

T - 2.7 nmol
E - 46 pmol
Fsh 0.2 uh
Lh 1 uh

Clearly I am not recovering.

I've been using at home sperm tests and have gone from 1m to 30m, but dipped to 4m in January for some reason.

The urologist wants me to stay off, but I've had ED now for 2 months, which amongst everything else is killing my marriage (as well as feeling shit).

I'd like people's opinion and experience who have been through this. Am I better off going back to trt?

In Dec 22 justin harris, who was my coach at the time suggested 2g t weekly. But I never committed to it as I've never gone even close to that high. Now I am considering it as we really want a family, buy I fear if it doesn't work it will set us back 3-6 months.

Input greatly appreciated.

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

.

 

[Wintermaul]

Hi,
i would start with upping the clomid dose up to a 100mg ED. This can maybe take care of youre ED-problemes as well.
You dont state how much vitamins and minerals youre using.
Sperm requires c-vitamin and zinc at least. So i would look into how much you should take extra.

 

[bensif]

Hi,
i would start with upping the clomid dose up to a 100mg ED. This can maybe take care of youre ED-problemes as well.
You dont state how much vitamins and minerals youre using.
Sperm requires c-vitamin and zinc at least. So i would look into how much you should take extra.

Hi mate,

My diet is Well balanced and varied, but on top of this I am taking;

Selenium 200mcg ed
Vit d 10,000iu pw
Zinc 30mg Ed
Vitamin e 200iu ed
Taurine 5g daily

I've been doing this for 6-7 months.

How quickly do you expect clomid to rectify the ed?

 

[Dumbbell2008]

Were you on continuously the last 10 years? Any hcg usage during these years?

 

[bensif]

Were you on continuously the last 10 years? Any hcg usage during these years?

More or less; alot of trt in there. A few breaks of 4-8 weeks sprinkled in-between

No hcg use at all

 

[dsteelo455]

any exogenous test will almost guarantee not help. for fertility, eclomiphene supposedly helps a lot also. amount of time totally off all exogenous test / aas anything that suppresses, is the only thing that really matters once you are totally suppressed. 3 months isn't long. lots of guys long term suppressed need 6+ months or closer to even a year off 100% to show any slight improvement. of course some exceptions but realistically no other way. and cialis for the ed.

 

[grammo13]

Man I feel for you. I wish I had advice.

My wife and I went through this for 3 or 4 years. My poor numbers and she had endometriosis. Multiple failed IVF attempts. She wanted to have sex every day to keep trying between IVF attempts but I couldn't and didn't want to have sex at all while on clomid. Maybe every 3 days I was able to get hard enough. And sex felt like such a chore that we couldn't even enjoy it. All her friends were popping out babies left and right. Building up tons of debt because at the time none of IVF was covered by insurance. This all put such a strain on our marriage

She had surgery, I just kept on clomid wanting to kill myself every day. We gave up having sex and just put or trust in the IVF doctors. I don't remember all the details but I know finally we ended up with 8 decent embryos. Our son just turned 4 and daughter just turned 2 months. Both IVF

I guess my point is, don't give up. We were both on the verge of quitting and now here we are with two kids wondering wtf were we thinking Iol!

Seriously though, I just know what you guys are going through right now, and it was the hardest years of my life that I'd wish on no one. So I'm just hoping the best for you guys and that you get as lucky as we did in the end.

 

[Flex500]

Hi,

Long term lurker.

My wife and I have been trying to conceive for several years. Last year we had a failed ivf cycle.

At the time my semen analysis was poor; 1m total. Motility was good and morphology was ok at 4%.

I came off fully end of last year. I have been using hcg and hmg at 1500iu / 75iu 3x per week since. More recently I added clomid at 25mg Ed.

Bloods in October and then last week were the same;

T - 2.7 nmol
E - 46 pmol
Fsh 0.2 uh
Lh 1 uh

Clearly I am not recovering.

I've been using at home sperm tests and have gone from 1m to 30m, but dipped to 4m in January for some reason.

The urologist wants me to stay off, but I've had ED now for 2 months, which amongst everything else is killing my marriage (as well as feeling shit).

I'd like people's opinion and experience who have been through this. Am I better off going back to trt?

In Dec 22 justin harris, who was my coach at the time suggested 2g t weekly. But I never committed to it as I've never gone even close to that high. Now I am considering it as we really want a family, buy I fear if it doesn't work it will set us back 3-6 months.

Input greatly appreciated.

Our situations are not exactly the same but this may help https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...-fertility-protocol-and-few-questions.169678/ . My wife ended up getting pregnant about three months later which was after about 9 months of trying or so. I'm glad I fought the mental battle of going back on trt...it was so tempting and trying to have sex all the time without hardly being able to hold an erection was insane...I 100% know what you are going through there.

My main question is do you know if you were fertile before? We had a kid when I was 29 and my count was well over 200m. I looked at my wife and she got pregant. 10 years of cycles and trt and when we started to try at 39 I had no sperm at all....zero. Was pretty low after a few months but then with a lot of hmg it really kicked off and went through the roof. If you are <20m it can be pretty tough (not impossible, but tough). I assume maybe you don't have any previous history? That is the only part that may be tough because you are not sure your situation before drugs. It's encouraging though that you were up >30m, even if for a while.

I'd steer clear of the jumping back on or doing the 2 gram route. If that doesn't work you are basically starting all over and I've seen literally 100% success when guys stay the course with the hcg and hmg who don't have underlying issues.

 

[bensif]

Man I feel for you. I wish I had advice.

My wife and I went through this for 3 or 4 years. My poor numbers and she had endometriosis. Multiple failed IVF attempts. She wanted to have sex every day to keep trying between IVF attempts but I couldn't and didn't want to have sex at all while on clomid. Maybe every 3 days I was able to get hard enough. And sex felt like such a chore that we couldn't even enjoy it. All her friends were popping out babies left and right. Building up tons of debt because at the time none of IVF was covered by insurance. This all put such a strain on our marriage

She had surgery, I just kept on clomid wanting to kill myself every day. We gave up having sex and just put or trust in the IVF doctors. I don't remember all the details but I know finally we ended up with 8 decent embryos. Our son just turned 4 and daughter just turned 2 months. Both IVF

I guess my point is, don't give up. We were both on the verge of quitting and now here we are with two kids wondering wtf were we thinking Iol!

Seriously though, I just know what you guys are going through right now, and it was the hardest years of my life that I'd wish on no one. So I'm just hoping the best for you guys and that you get as lucky as we did in the end.

What you describe is exactly what I am going through. Sex is literally impossible right now, and I have no interest in it, which creates an entirely new set of marital problems.

Of course feeling terrible due to low T is also not great.

We are starting a new IVF process again, but I am also hopeful we can conceive natrually too.

I really appreciate your post man.

Our situations are not exactly the same but this may help https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...-fertility-protocol-and-few-questions.169678/ . My wife ended up getting pregnant about three months later which was after about 9 months of trying or so. I'm glad I fought the mental battle of going back on trt...it was so tempting and trying to have sex all the time without hardly being able to hold an erection was insane...I 100% know what you are going through there.

My main question is do you know if you were fertile before? We had a kid when I was 29 and my count was well over 200m. I looked at my wife and she got pregant. 10 years of cycles and trt and when we started to try at 39 I had no sperm at all....zero. Was pretty low after a few months but then with a lot of hmg it really kicked off and went through the roof. If you are <20m it can be pretty tough (not impossible, but tough). I assume maybe you don't have any previous history? That is the only part that may be tough because you are not sure your situation before drugs. It's encouraging though that you were up >30m, even if for a while.

I'd steer clear of the jumping back on or doing the 2 gram route. If that doesn't work you are basically starting all over and I've seen literally 100% success when guys stay the course with the hcg and hmg who don't have underlying issues.

I do not know if I was fertile before, I am going say no. My entire life, I have had unprotected sex, mostly with 2 long term relationships, one of which is my wife. This is from the age of 14. I am not 36.

I had a varicocele that I thought it was just twisted up shit in my nuts since I was 17/18, until last year (had no idea what it was). That was removed in October 2023. It is entirely possible I have not been fertile my entire life.

I some how managed to do a sperm test earlier, with a semi solid penis. That has come back at 10.95m per ml, 53% motility, 2ml sample (little low this time), so 12m tmsc and 22m total sperm.

Previous sample was 3.5ml, but lower count per million. This was 1m in Jan 23. So I have improved my sperm.

But I should note, a large period of that was still with gear in my system I guess.

For now, given the result today, I will be staying the course at least in the short term. However, the ED is a massive problem. I can force sperm into tub, but into my wife is a different story. That is the only reason I was considering adding test back in.

I have spoken to quite a few people have used the Justin Harris approach all with 100% success. It is the only thing I haven't tried yet (given 6-7 months of HCG / HMG).

 

[Prada]

For ED issues couldn’t you just use viagra/cialis? Won’t do anything for libido but at least make it easier to get hard.

 

[bensif]

For ED issues couldn’t you just use viagra/cialis? Won’t do anything for libido but at least make it easier to get hard.

Yes I am waiting for my prescription to be ready, as the urologist has given me this.

Never used it so no idea if it will work or aid libido which is non existent

 

[btails]

Yes I am waiting for my prescription to be ready, as the urologist has given me this.

Never used it so no idea if it will work or aid libido which is non existent

Cialis has always given me a libido boost. Viagra is just a headache in a bottle for me. You'll have to try both and see which you respond better too.

I'm curious why did you not use the justin harris method of 2g+ testosterone first, then employ the old withdrawing trt completely if that didn't work?

 

[stackdizzy]

Avanafil is an erection med and I actually feel like I want to have sex on it. I could be totally off and take that stuff and boom straight to pervert.

 

[Stickball]

PT-141 for the boners and libido boost. I don't really get any noticeable libido from it, but it seriously gives spontaneous rock hard ragers like a teenager even during periods when the normal ED meds aren't doing the trick. Biggest downside is that it requires a few days in between doses to remain effective, but other than that it is quite good and stacks with any other treatment you're using.

 

[Flex500]

For ED issues couldn’t you just use viagra/cialis? Won’t do anything for libido but at least make it easier to get hard.

It helps, but I can tell you from personal experience (well at least for me) it still didn't help since I had zero desire. I mean I'd almost say it was a negative desire/drive. For many, even if you have cialis or viagra helping, it just doesn't do it. You end up with sort of a semi-erection that really isn't much of anything.

 

[Flex500]

What you describe is exactly what I am going through. Sex is literally impossible right now, and I have no interest in it, which creates an entirely new set of marital problems.

Of course feeling terrible due to low T is also not great.

We are starting a new IVF process again, but I am also hopeful we can conceive natrually too.

I really appreciate your post man.

I do not know if I was fertile before, I am going say no. My entire life, I have had unprotected sex, mostly with 2 long term relationships, one of which is my wife. This is from the age of 14. I am not 36.

I had a varicocele that I thought it was just twisted up shit in my nuts since I was 17/18, until last year (had no idea what it was). That was removed in October 2023. It is entirely possible I have not been fertile my entire life.

I some how managed to do a sperm test earlier, with a semi solid penis. That has come back at 10.95m per ml, 53% motility, 2ml sample (little low this time), so 12m tmsc and 22m total sperm.

Previous sample was 3.5ml, but lower count per million. This was 1m in Jan 23. So I have improved my sperm.

But I should note, a large period of that was still with gear in my system I guess.

For now, given the result today, I will be staying the course at least in the short term. However, the ED is a massive problem. I can force sperm into tub, but into my wife is a different story. That is the only reason I was considering adding test back in.

I have spoken to quite a few people have used the Justin Harris approach all with 100% success. It is the only thing I haven't tried yet (given 6-7 months of HCG / HMG).

Totally get it, and I 100% feel your pain. I mean I can't tell you at the lever to which I get the erection issue. I would have nonstop stress thinking about how I can possibly get an erection to have sex. It was such a mental drain.

There are a lot of success stories on Justin Harris protocol (and I love him btw) but I personally know of many horror stories. The amount of test was so high their sperm dropped even on the hcg. I actually don't know any people "in real life" where that worked, just on the internet.

I do know it has worked for many people to blast HCG and HMG and take "normal" trt. Looking back, I wish I would have blasted HCG and HMG and just did the 10mgs a day of test.


If you do the justin harris method (and honestly I'm not crapping on it), I'd encourage you to test often and keep the HMG VERY high. Palumbo also is semi-for that method.

Good luck to you man, please keep us posted!

 

[bensif]

Cialis has always given me a libido boost. Viagra is just a headache in a bottle for me. You'll have to try both and see which you respond better too.

I'm curious why did you not use the justin harris method of 2g+ testosterone first, then employ the old withdrawing trt completely if that didn't work?

You know, looking back, I wish I had, but we were already beginning IVF and in my naivety I assumed that would be the silver bullet. I had never used huge doses of anything either, so I just didn't commit to it. I wish I had. Hindsight I guess.

Totally get it, and I 100% feel your pain. I mean I can't tell you at the lever to which I get the erection issue. I would have nonstop stress thinking about how I can possibly get an erection to have sex. It was such a mental drain.

There are a lot of success stories on Justin Harris protocol (and I love him btw) but I personally know of many horror stories. The amount of test was so high their sperm dropped even on the hcg. I actually don't know any people "in real life" where that worked, just on the internet.

I do know it has worked for many people to blast HCG and HMG and take "normal" trt. Looking back, I wish I would have blasted HCG and HMG and just did the 10mgs a day of test.


If you do the justin harris method (and honestly I'm not crapping on it), I'd encourage you to test often and keep the HMG VERY high. Palumbo also is semi-for that method.

Good luck to you man, please keep us posted!

Ive literally just come back from an ultrasound on the testes. It seems the varicocelectomy I had last year was not done properly, so that is another issue to add to the mix.

For at least the next week, I am changing nothing. I want to talk to my urologist again, armed with all the information.

How long I will give this current method, I am really unsure. Quality of life is horrendous as I am sure you know, but Ive had other health complications in the last 3 months since all this happened which I am honestly thinking is because i have no hormones. So I am weighing up that as well. My body is a mess lol.

Would you mind elaborating on the horror stories you have heard? I'd like to understand as much as I can really.

Will also try to keep this thread updated throughout until we find what works for us.

 

[Flex500]

You know, looking back, I wish I had, but we were already beginning IVF and in my naivety I assumed that would be the silver bullet. I had never used huge doses of anything either, so I just didn't commit to it. I wish I had. Hindsight I guess.


Ive literally just come back from an ultrasound on the testes. It seems the varicocelectomy I had last year was not done properly, so that is another issue to add to the mix.

For at least the next week, I am changing nothing. I want to talk to my urologist again, armed with all the information.

How long I will give this current method, I am really unsure. Quality of life is horrendous as I am sure you know, but Ive had other health complications in the last 3 months since all this happened which I am honestly thinking is because i have no hormones. So I am weighing up that as well. My body is a mess lol.

Would you mind elaborating on the horror stories you have heard? I'd like to understand as much as I can really.

Will also try to keep this thread updated throughout until we find what works for us.

"horror stories" may be strong terminology...well maybe it's not this is all very stressful. I have seen several people (personally, not online) only taking very modest to moderate amounts of HCG/HMG and their sperm count starts to come back but they don't feel good at all so do the super high doses and get on 2-3 grams if test and it wipes out all their improvements and their count drops. At that point they panic and then come off everything and start completely over. If I had to guess, is it that they didn't want to spend the money on HMG and 25-50 iu 2-4 times a week isn't going to be enough when you are on 2 grams of test. I get the theory Palumbo and Harris believe in...I'm just not sure it plays out in real life that way all the time or when it does it's often people taking a metric assload of HMG.

If it were me, I'd start on a much lower dose of test just to get yourself functional and keep pumping the HCG/HMG.

That said, your issue is a bit different because you are not seeing the step ups in improvement you'd like so I can see thinking outside of the box.

 

[bensif]

"horror stories" may be strong terminology...well maybe it's not this is all very stressful. I have seen several people (personally, not online) only taking very modest to moderate amounts of HCG/HMG and their sperm count starts to come back but they don't feel good at all so do the super high doses and get on 2-3 grams if test and it wipes out all their improvements and their count drops. At that point they panic and then come off everything and start completely over. If I had to guess, is it that they didn't want to spend the money on HMG and 25-50 iu 2-4 times a week isn't going to be enough when you are on 2 grams of test. I get the theory Palumbo and Harris believe in...I'm just not sure it plays out in real life that way all the time or when it does it's often people taking a metric assload of HMG.

If it were me, I'd start on a much lower dose of test just to get yourself functional and keep pumping the HCG/HMG.

That said, your issue is a bit different because you are not seeing the step ups in improvement you'd like so I can see thinking outside of the box.

Ok I am with you. I only know the stuff Justin told me, and the stories of those that have shared positive results. But have not heard anyone who had a bad experience myself. My sample size is small though. I know Ben Chow said he used quite alot of HMG when he did it.

I know another BBer in the UK who did the same HCG / HMG protocol whilst on 100mg test and 200mg primo. They conceived around week 9-10.

I mean I can up the HCG and HMG for sure. The first 3 months I was using 37.5iu of hmg, and then moved to 75iu 3x per week. I could go to up 50% again. HCG could go up too I suppose.

I could add in a small dose of test, TRT wise, to keep things working but I have no way of knowing if it will have an adverse affect I suppose. Its difficult, and as you say, you stress over it and end up over thinking it.

That's why I thought I'd try and give it until next week, see if the cialis helps and get the DNA frag test done. 10 days from now is my wifes next fertile period, so I need to be in a position to perform by then.

I could also add proviron I suppose.