thanks for sharing!
first of all i probably fell into a lot of broscience stories regarding insulin... people claiming "5iu humalog pre workout gave me the most insane pumps ever"... well it seems like their 200g sugar intra workout shakes are what gave them these pumps, not the insulin.
First of all, I want to say that I mis-read you originally typed regarding the type of insulin used. I thought you were using Novolin (regular insulin), not Novolog. So, when I stated that you needed to use more, I was referring to Novolin, not Novolog. I think 10 IU of rapid-acting insulin is well within the "effective" range for a pre-workout protocol. Of course, many guys can get away with using more and it would be a good idea for many, but still, 10 IU is within the effective range. I wanted to clarify that before moving on.
im using insulin for the anticatabolic purposes, thats why i run it preworkout only.
Insulin produces anabolic and anti-catabolic effects through multiple mechanisms. These include:
Nutrient delivery
M-tor signaling
Increased IGF-1 levels
Inhibition of muscle protein breakdown
The ability to increase protein content via DNA transcription and RNA translation (this mechanism is not thoroughly understood, as a proportionately larger amount of research has focused on glucose and lipid metabolism)
increased IGF-1 bioavailability
...and there may be some others I do not recall off-hand.
Regardless of what time you use insulin, you will receive all of these benefits. Whether results take place from anabolic or anticatabolic means make little difference, as the net result is the same--increased muscle growth.
not for the glycogen refilling properties post workout. ive seen studies that claim insulin needs to be dosed in huge amounts for actual anabolism to occur, while it is decently anticatabolic in very small amounts already.
Muscle cell swelling via glycogen (and therefore water) super compensation is anabolic. All of insulin's effects will be present even in small doses. Using larger dosages just magnifies these effects. As you can see based on the list above, insulin's anabolic properties are manifold, being triggered with small even small doses.
Besides, discrepancies in insulin sensitivity, as well as differences in the release rates of the various forms of insulin, precludes the possibility of there being a single "threshold" dose. As anyone with experience will tell you, insulin can, depending on the individual, produce positive effects on recovery and growth through both anabolic and anticatibolic mechanisms even with small doses.
and i know youre a guru on that, but i dont agree on the carbohydrate sources you mention AT ALL. why would i use complex carbohydrates with a rapid acting insulin that lowers blood sugar quickly?
ALL carbohydrates get broked down into monosaccharides anyway. so why should i not just use straight dextrose then?
First of all, you're contradicting yourself. In your previous post you said that you do not need to drink dextrose right away because when you used Novolog, it did not "kick in" right away. You said you had to wait an extended period of time for your blood sugar to go down, which is what prompted you to hold off on consuming your dextrose.
So, if you are waiting that long to drink your dextrose, why would it matter if you ate a complex carb right from the start? Using your reasoning, it should work out just fine, as there are many complex carbs that would begin elevating BG by the time you would normally drink your dextrose.
The main thing an insulin user needs to worry about when it comes to maintaining normal blood glucose levels, regardless of what form of insulin is being used, is that the foods being eaten are capable of maintaining adequate BG levels. Whether you use whole-foods, shakes, complex carbs, sugars, or even certain proteins to do this doesn't matter, as long as it gets the job done. Additionally, there are a many factors to consider when it comes to managing BG--not just carb type.
What was your slin dose? When, what, and how much did you eat in your last meal prior to injecting insulin? When, what, and how much did you eat after you injected insulin? What is your insulin sensitivity like? What were your BG levels prior to injecting? What is your activity level during the time the slin is active? There are just some of the factors which can impact how your BG levels respond to a certain type of insulin.
Basically, the point I am trying to make is that a rapid-acting slin does not necessarily require the use of rapid-digesting carbohydrates post-injection. You will often hear generic recommendations for such, but this is because the person making general online recommendations can't possibly know the circumstances of every individual who might choose to implement such a program. Therefore, generic recommendations, when provided to the entire board, are designed so that potential users stay safe, even in a worst case scenario.
Your reasoning that it doesn't matter what type of carbs one eats when using slin, as all carbs convert to glucose anyway, shows a limited understanding of the effects that different foods, and carbs in particular, have on the body. In terms of regulating BG, yes, basically any carb can potentially be used depending on the circumstances, but we should be concerned with more than just regulating BG when using slin. Primarily, we should be focused on eating those foods which are ideal for making maximum progress.
Like I said in a prior post, if you would not sit down an eat a bowl full of sugar when you're not using slin, why should you automatically do so when using slin? Slin is not going to make your body respond to that sugar any differently than it normally would. It will simply enhance the delivery of that sugar into the cells. Now, there are certainly times when sugar is beneficial...and around a workout can potentially be one of them (branched cyclic dextrins are a sugar), but to say that carb type doesn't matter at any time because they all convert to glucose, is silly.
If carb type doesn't matter with slin, then there would be no difference whether we eat rice and potatoes with our whole-food meals, or bowls of table sugar. Actually, if this is the case, we should be able to replace all of our daily cabs with dextrose and still get the same results in terms of recovery, muscle fullness, growth, fat loss, health, etc.
Obviously, this is not the case. The reason most BB'rs eat things like rice, potatoes, pasta, and various grains with the majority of their meals is because carb source makes a HUGE difference in how we look, function, and feel, not to mention our ability to recover and grow. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
The only reason BB'rs used to drink a bunch of dextrose whenever they used insulin (in the beginning that was "all" they used--they didn't even include protein) is because knowledge was limited. There were under the impression that the only thing that mattered was making sure they didn't go hypo...and they thought the best way to make sure this didn't happen was to use dextrose, so that's what they used.
After a few years they realized that by using dextrose alone, they weren't taking advantage of insulin's ability to shuttle aminos into cells, so they began to include some rapid digesting proteins with their dextrose.
Since then we have learned a lot...and despite many BB'rs including insulin with several of their daily meals at certain points in their program, very rarely is dextrose included in one's normal meals. Aside from spiking BG quickly, dextrose provides virtually no benefits over most whole food carb sources and is quite inferior in many aspects.
What about the guys using lantus? Should they just eat dextrose all day long because exogenous insulin is present most of the day? Questions like this are silly. The bottom line is that carb source should not be determined by what type of insulin we want to use. Rather, we should first determine which carb sources are ideal for our goals at that particular time and then use a form of insulin is ideal for our diet. Too many guys do things ass-backwards when working with insulin.
Using insulin might be relatively simple in certain instances, but understanding the drug itself, how it affects the body, and how all the various components of one's lifestyle and individual physiology fit together and affect each other is a colossal task. Lots of guys are only educated on a few aspects of this, and weakly so at that. The more you research into these things, the more you realize just how much there is to learn. I now see why insulin and those matters related to it have been the subject of study for nearly 100 years by 1,000's of individuals over lifetimes of work.
imo the big advantage of complex carbohydrates is the slow and steady blood sugar (and therefore insulin) release.
when i use a rapidly peaking exogenous insulin, complex carbohydrates provide zero benefit imo.
I am not going to address this statement here, as I feel I did it well enough above.
maybe >50g dextrose is too much at once for any amount of insulin to shuttle and youre better off adding some slower carbs then, but since im not doing that (my shakes are about 500ml skim milk, whey and 30-40g dextrose so thats about 50-60g carbs). i feel perfectly fine with that amount of dextrose. no GI stress either.
the
ONLY advantage of all that fancy vitargo, cyclic dextrins stuff is low osmolarity, meaning quicker absorption and less stomach stress. i dont get stomach stress from dextrose though.
dextrose and whey give me ZERO stomach issues, so im not paying 5x as much for the newest fancy products.
Again, already addressed this above.
its just like buying lactose free milk when youre perfectly fine with lactose. pointless imo.
Not really. In this instance, you are talking about the inability to digest a certain type of milk sugar--a problem only rectified by either eliminating the cause or by providing the necessary enzymes.
When talking about carbs and how they affect virtually every aspect of our progress and health, it's a little more complex than that.
i like testing stuff myself.
Sure, I understand. Personal experience is hugely important when it comes to understanding PED's. I have an massive amount if personal experience with this drug in all of its forms. I have used it 1,000's of time over a 12 year period with dozens of different programs. However, many of the things I did over the years, I would not repeat, as I made many mistakes along the way. However, I could have avoided some of those mistake by listening to others along the way. This is the advantage of learning from others--you can bypass mistakes you might otherwise have made, saving yourself time, money, and possibly your health in the process.
its more about where you want to end up, not where you are... im 5'8 180lbs at a true 8% bf... ive seen people with 20lbs less lean mass running slin cycles. ive also seen people with 20lbs MORE lean mass being completely clueless. i obviously know how to use insulin safely, so why should i not
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