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LANTUS to improve insulin sensitivity - "experiment"

luki7788

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My little lantus experiment

I wanted to test the theory that administering lantus in small doses over a longer period of time improves insulin sensitivity and lowers A1c

4 weeks on the protocol 10iu lantus before bed 5x a week (I didn't give it the night before the day off from training because I have low carbs on my days off so it wasn't needed)

Below are the results of the test before and after - the first photo before the second after
 

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very interesting.
i think i dont have to ask if your nutrition and gear during those 4 weeks was completely identical to before.
(i assume so since you know your shit :D)
do you think for someone that eats much less carbs than you (350g/day) 5iu could already lead to improvements?
 
very interesting.
i think i dont have to ask if your nutrition and gear during those 4 weeks was completely identical to before.
(i assume so since you know your shit :D)
do you think for someone that eats much less carbs than you (350g/day) 5iu could already lead to improvements?
yes everything was the same

as for the second one, I think that with 350g of carbs lantus it is totally unnecessary because your pancreas does not need to be relieved from the outside with such a small amount it will cope on its own without any problems
 
yes everything was the same

as for the second one, I think that with 350g of carbs lantus it is totally unnecessary because your pancreas does not need to be relieved from the outside with such a small amount it will cope on its own without any problems

would you say this is also the case if moderate-higher dosages of hgh are involved? (8-10iu)
 
yes - rather with 10iu+ but even with a high dose of gh if you don't eat a lot of carbohydrates then you should not have problems with insulin sensitivity
Great post. Thanks... okay so only useful when bulking when we're pushing calories and carbs up + taking a bigger dose of GH.
 
Yes - I think pushing calories into the offseason is the best time to use a low dose of lantus to relieve the pancreas
Before going to bed as you write or in the morning after waking up before I start pushing calories?

So far Metformin at night always works for me and my blood sugar is fine in the morning.

Thanks for sharing your experience Luki 💪
 
Before going to bed as you write or in the morning after waking up before I start pushing calories?

So far Metformin at night always works for me and my blood sugar is fine in the morning.

Thanks for sharing your experience Luki 💪
at night before bedtime

metformin works but does not relieve the pancreas + increases the pH of the stomach and negatively affects the intestinal flora - I had to completely stop metformin and berberine during treatment so I was looking for an alternative

You have to remember that here I am talking about extreme amounts of food like 6000-8000 calories every day including 1000g and more carbohydrates and not some 4000-5000 and 600g carbs - the body can handle the latter without any problems
 
that is, in this context, what jewett has been promoting for some time agrees.
 
This is great to see. Prophylactic lantus use has been picking up a lot it seems. Seems like there can be a sweet spot that aids eases the work of the pancreas without having to worry about insulin sensitivity issues?
 
My little lantus experiment

I wanted to test the theory that administering lantus in small doses over a longer period of time improves insulin sensitivity and lowers A1c

4 weeks on the protocol 10iu lantus before bed 5x a week (I didn't give it the night before the day off from training because I have low carbs on my days off so it wasn't needed)

Below are the results of the test before and after - the first photo before the second after
Hey luki,

I appreciate what you're trying to do here and that it's well intentioned, but this doesn't support insulin glargine enhancing insulin sensitivity, or even lowering HbA1c by your method here (even though it does of course lower HbA1c). I'll explain.

Your methods fail to support that this protocol lowers HbA1c because HbA1c reflects glycosylated haemoglobin on a longer time-course... because of the half-lives of the unbound haemoglobin peptide & red blood cells, it takes a minimum of 3 months (more like 5 to be interpreted) for any intervention to begin to register as a change to HbA1c. This is actually why HbA1c is considered a good measure of the chronic flux of blood glucose on long time frames.

Besides that, it's not actually your theory that basal insulin can protect the pancreas. This theory was actually first proposed in 1976 by Turner & colleagues.

HbA1c is just one measure used to understand metabolic health. It reflects chronic blood glucose concentrations. What long-term exogenous insulin worsens is actually insulin sensitivity. For measuring that, you would want to have a laboratory test done for either QUICKI or HOMA-IR.

I've written an article about this very common myth. I will quote the relevant section from Insulin's effects and mechanisms in promoting skeletal muscle hypertrophy by Type-IIx (Meso-Rx Article):

Bro-Science Myth #2: “Insulin protects the pancreas by giving the pancreatic islet β-cell a break”​


False:


Low-dose insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) may stave off or slow the progression from prediabetes (impared fasting glucose or impaired glucose tolerance) or early diabetes to type 2 diabetes mellitus (insulin-resistant; T2DM), characterized by total pancreatic islet β-cell failure; but hyperinsulinemia worsens insulin sensitivity. Exogenous insulin in healthy adults worsens insulin sensitivity by increasing HOMA-IR (defined as [fasting values] serum insulin (μU/ml) * plasma glucose (mmol/liter) / 22.5; optimal range 0.5 – 1.4) & worsening QUICKI (defined as 1 / (log(insulin μU/mL) + log(glucose mg/dL))). In healthy adults, Bouche et al. conducted an experiment using an isoglycemic-hyperinsulinemic clamp (mimicking exogenous insulin in healthy adults) and found that pre-exposure to hyperinsulinemia increased insulin secretion by ~40% (21). [27].


In a study authored by Owens, D. R. [27] that is often touted as evidentiary support for the practice of training-day low dose insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) to promote pancreatic β-cell “rest,” in healthy bodybuilders, the data, rather than supporting this practice, argues for initiating insulin treatment in prediabetes and/or early T2DM before the current observed worldwide clinical practice of initiation of insulin therapy after a duration of T2DM of approximately 10 years x mean HbA1c > 9%. [27].


The study [27] proposed that three (3) groups of individuals are particularly suitable for early intensive insulin therapy:


  1. Treatment-naive (i.e., no prior exposure to exogenous insulin) patients who present with marked hyperglycemic symptoms with HbA1c > 8.5%
  2. Latent autoimmune diabetes of adults (type 1.5 diabetics; LADA) patients… characterized by the presence of islet autoantibodies (i.e., treatment initiation indicated when glutamic acid decarboxylase > 20 U/mL) & low C-peptide secretion
  3. Patients possessing elevated cardiovascular risk factors (e.g., hyperlipidemia, hypertension)…. but the data does not bear out the purported rationale for this practice…

The purported “multifaceted benefits of insulin” that include ostensible anti-inflammatory & antioxidant effects that may protect endothelial function & vascular function is eviscerated by the bodybuilding practice of supra-physiologic anabolic-androgenic steroids that increase ROS (reactive oxygen species) production [31] and deleteriously alter endothelial cell function, particularly those that inhibit 11β-HSD2 (e.g., fluoxymesterone, oxymetholone, testosterone), or alternately inhibit cortisol oxidation and exert MR action (e.g., trenbolone) [30] and combined rhGH use (increasing serum IGF-I) reduces eNOS (endothelial nitric oxide synthase) activity. [32].


These purported benefits are, further, not materialized in any of the large scale studies that measured cardiovascular risk (from ACCORD to ADVANCE to VADT) (29, 30, 31) [27] . In the most relevant and well-powered study, the ORIGIN trial (Outcome Reduction with an Initial Glargine Intervention; a long-term, prospective, large scale, randomized-controlled trial [n=12,537]) in prediabetes and early T2DM patients, patients followed up with at a median of 6.2 years showed no effect on:


  • nonfatal myocardial infarction (MI; heart attack)
  • nonfatal stroke
  • death from cardiovascular causes
  • revascularization, or
  • hospitalization for heart failure [27]

Indeed, the common bodybuilding use of short & rapid-acting insulin preparations is strongly associated with increased cardiovascular risk.


The crux of the argument that exogenous insulin use promotes “β-cell rest” is rooted in a small (n=7), 2.5 page, 1976 study in diabetic patients that postulated that overcoming glucotoxicity (by exogenous insulin) in turn allows a store of readily available endogenous insulin to be accumulated for early release to a nutrient challenge, thereby, enhancing β-cell function. [29]. See [27] citing Turner, et al. (18). Naturally, the expansion of this logic is inapposite healthy adult bodybuilders using high dose rhGH (i.e., increasing HSL activity, thereby increasing circulating free-fatty acids, inducing insulin resistance).
 
Hey luki,

I appreciate what you're trying to do here and that it's well intentioned, but this doesn't support insulin glargine enhancing insulin sensitivity, or even lowering HbA1c by your method here (even though it does of course lower HbA1c). I'll explain.

Your methods fail to support that this protocol lowers HbA1c because HbA1c reflects glycosylated haemoglobin on a longer time-course... because of the half-lives of the unbound haemoglobin peptide & red blood cells, it takes a minimum of 3 (more like 5 to be interpreted) for any intervention to begin to register as a change to HbA1c. This is actually why HbA1c is considered a good measure of the chronic flux of blood glucose on long time frames.

Besides that, it's not actually your theory that basal insulin can protect the pancreas. This theory was actually first proposed in 1976 by Turner & colleagues.

HbA1c is just one measure used to understand metabolic health. It reflects chronic blood glucose concentrations. What long-term exogenous insulin worsens is actually insulin sensitivity. For measuring that, you would want to have a laboratory test done for either QUICKI or HOMA-IR.

I've written an article about this very common myth. I will quote the relevant section from Insulin's effects and mechanisms in promoting skeletal muscle hypertrophy by Type-IIx (Meso-Rx Article):
Forgive me if I missed it, but what dose was used here? They just say low dose insulin as far as I can see

Additionally I have seen this practice among many coaches whom are well researched. John Jewett (love him or hate him) is a large advocate of this low dose approach, and implements it in his clients. I imagine if he saw rising insulin resistance from it he would have seen something, no?
 
Hey luki,

I appreciate what you're trying to do here and that it's well intentioned, but this doesn't support insulin glargine enhancing insulin sensitivity, or even lowering HbA1c by your method here (even though it does of course lower HbA1c). I'll explain.

Your methods fail to support that this protocol lowers HbA1c because HbA1c reflects glycosylated haemoglobin on a longer time-course... because of the half-lives of the unbound haemoglobin peptide & red blood cells, it takes a minimum of 3 months (more like 5 to be interpreted) for any intervention to begin to register as a change to HbA1c. This is actually why HbA1c is considered a good measure of the chronic flux of blood glucose on long time frames.

Besides that, it's not actually your theory that basal insulin can protect the pancreas. This theory was actually first proposed in 1976 by Turner & colleagues.

HbA1c is just one measure used to understand metabolic health. It reflects chronic blood glucose concentrations. What long-term exogenous insulin worsens is actually insulin sensitivity. For measuring that, you would want to have a laboratory test done for either QUICKI or HOMA-IR.

I've written an article about this very common myth. I will quote the relevant section from Insulin's effects and mechanisms in promoting skeletal muscle hypertrophy by Type-IIx (Meso-Rx Article):
Additionally, the study refers to hyperinsulinemia, in which the the amount of insulin in the body is higher than what is considered healthy. When we are pushing so many carbs as bodybuilders, do you not think that what a healthy level is may differentiate from the normal person eating a regular diet?

I know many friends who have used lantus in low amounts in the offseason when pushing carbs, and none showed any signs of insulin resistance upon coming off.
 
Hey luki,

I appreciate what you're trying to do here and that it's well intentioned, but this doesn't support insulin glargine enhancing insulin sensitivity, or even lowering HbA1c by your method here (even though it does of course lower HbA1c). I'll explain.

Your methods fail to support that this protocol lowers HbA1c because HbA1c reflects glycosylated haemoglobin on a longer time-course... because of the half-lives of the unbound haemoglobin peptide & red blood cells, it takes a minimum of 3 months (more like 5 to be interpreted) for any intervention to begin to register as a change to HbA1c. This is actually why HbA1c is considered a good measure of the chronic flux of blood glucose on long time frames.

Besides that, it's not actually your theory that basal insulin can protect the pancreas. This theory was actually first proposed in 1976 by Turner & colleagues.

HbA1c is just one measure used to understand metabolic health. It reflects chronic blood glucose concentrations. What long-term exogenous insulin worsens is actually insulin sensitivity. For measuring that, you would want to have a laboratory test done for either QUICKI or HOMA-IR.

I've written an article about this very common myth. I will quote the relevant section from Insulin's effects and mechanisms in promoting skeletal muscle hypertrophy by Type-IIx (Meso-Rx Article):
you're right - so I'll check the A1c level in the next 2 months and add a report - but on the other hand, how can you explain such a significant change over 4 weeks, because according to your theory, no matter what we do, we won't notice a change after less than 3 months ( i.e. when the old blood cells die and are replaced by new ones) and both myself and many of my clients see an improvement in A1c in literally a few weeks?
 
you're right - so I'll check the A1c level in the next 2 months and add a report - but on the other hand, how can you explain such a significant change over 4 weeks, because according to your theory, no matter what we do, we won't notice a change after less than 3 months ( i.e. when the old blood cells die and are replaced by new ones) and both myself and many of my clients see an improvement in A1c in literally a few weeks?
since A1c is just a measurement of your average, I’m sure any decent change of your blood sugar would would impact it even if only in one month.

If it’s taken your average of say the past 3 months, one good month will make it better. Only makes sense to me. Perhaps to see FULL effects then yeah it’d take 3 months, but to say that you can’t see any change over one month in A1c would really make no sense. I’m with you on this one Luki. Take anyone who diets hard for a month coming out of a bulk… I’d bet my money on their A1c improving even in that first month.
 
since A1c is just a measurement of your average, I’m sure any decent change of your blood sugar would would impact it even if only in one month.

If it’s taken your average of say the past 3 months, one good month will make it better. Only makes sense to me. Perhaps to see FULL effects then yeah it’d take 3 months, but to say that you can’t see any change over one month in A1c would really make no sense. I’m with you on this one Luki. Take anyone who diets hard for a month coming out of a bulk… I’d bet my money on their A1c improving even in that first month.
that's exactly what I meant if I have an average of 3 months e.g. 5.3 - 4.9 -4.0 it gives us an average of 4.7

I have nothing against research, but bodybuilders have proven many times that most research and "theory" (key word) do not work in their case at all
 
you're right - so I'll check the A1c level in the next 2 months and add a report - but on the other hand, how can you explain such a significant change over 4 weeks, because according to your theory, no matter what we do, we won't notice a change after less than 3 months ( i.e. when the old blood cells die and are replaced by new ones) and both myself and many of my clients see an improvement in A1c in literally a few weeks?
You say "significant change," but how have you determined significance? And what type of significance?

There is a change in the sense that there are 2 different values here, but only you have called it "significant."

There are two forms of significance that might apply to such a change -

First, there is clinical significance - that which has ramifications for your health and that should be addressed by a medical treatment plan, or

Second, there is statistical significance - that which, by applying probability & statistical methods, can be shown to have a strong likelihood, referred to as its confidence interval, of not being due to mere chance. In order to show statistical significance you'd need to have a sufficient sample size (of bloodwork tests) that are described by the normal distribution and some known dispersion (e.g., in the form of a standard deviation).

So, you may see how your merely saying it is "significant" does not make it so, either clinically or statistically.

But let us go ahead, and just for argument's sake, assume either clinical or statistical significance explains the difference in values here such that we assume there is some known factor(s) causing variability in your HbA1c results not related to any glycaemic variable (since it's not enough time to be related to blood glucose changes).

And, indeed, there are:

Variations in HbA1c on this time frame that have clinical significance include liver disease (causing variable results, increases and decreases wildly), and changes in iron status (deficiency increases HbA1c & high iron decreases it).

Variations in HbA1c without clinical significance but with statistical significance include season, such that HbA1c is statistically significantly higher in the winter, and vitamin B12 statistically significantly lowers HbA1c. Various other nutritional factors influence HbA1c with statistical significance as well, such as folic acid and vitamin E levels.
 
You say "significant change," but how have you determined significance? And what type of significance?

There is a change in the sense that there are 2 different values here, but only you have called it "significant."

There are two forms of significance that might apply to such a change -

First, there is clinical significance - that which has ramifications for your health and that should be addressed by a medical treatment plan, or

Second, there is statistical significance - that which, by applying probability & statistical methods, can be shown to have a strong likelihood, referred to as its confidence interval, of not being due to mere chance. In order to show statistical significance you'd need to have a sufficient sample size (of bloodwork tests) that are described by the normal distribution and some known dispersion (e.g., in the form of a standard deviation).

So, you may see how your merely saying it is "significant" does not make it so, either clinically or statistically.

But let us go ahead, and just for argument's sake, assume either clinical or statistical significance explains the difference in values here such that we assume there is some known factor(s) causing variability in your HbA1c results not related to any glycaemic variable (since it's not enough time to be related to blood glucose changes).

And, indeed, there are:

Variations in HbA1c on this time frame that have clinical significance include liver disease (causing variable results, increases and decreases wildly), and changes in iron status (deficiency increases HbA1c & high iron decreases it).

Variations in HbA1c without clinical significance but with statistical significance include season, such that HbA1c is statistically significantly higher in the winter, and vitamin B12 statistically significantly lowers HbA1c. Various other nutritional factors influence HbA1c with statistical significance as well, such as folic acid and vitamin E levels.
How is a 5.1 to a 4.0 A1C not a significant change?

This is obviously a single person anecdote, but now you’re just being pedantic and gatekeeping the word significant. @luki7788 never claimed this was some sort of lab controlled research or that any scientist called this a “significant change”, he’s just sharing his experience.

You’re just throwing around jargon to try and dispute things as much as possible, bringing up his iron (which I’m sure Luki checks frequently) and even the season 🤦‍♂️ . What is really more likely, be logical… that the change in season/some sudden iron deficiency he developed in ONE MONTH caused this drastic change in A1c… or the lantus. Luki is incredibly regimented with diet, just read his log. He is very consistent, this is not some sudden change with folic acid or vitamin E, do not be ridiculous. We know that with liver disease (although not exactly what Luki was experiencing), if anything we see a falsely low A1c… and since luki has been recovering wouldnt we if anything see it raise if the liver issues were giving it a false reading?

I do not really know you, but you seem to be looking for a reason to dispute that any change happened for no apparent reason.
 

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