Mark Bells TRT Perspective

[275bills]

Did you see his cable rows sitting on the floor lol

I did not

 

[Oldwhitedude]

The 3 seconds of the video that i listened to talk about short erm gains and not long term health. Didn't figure there was any reason to watch more.

Genuinely curious here. How much evidence do we have on the long term implications to health of doses in that 'definitely elevated but not blasting your face off' range?

From what I can see and I may well be wrong but there isn't much out there. We know the deleterious effects of blasting your face off and uncontrolled blood pressure and the rest of it sure.

Just opening this up for discussion.

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

Genuinely curious here. How much evidence do we have on the long term implications to health of doses in that 'definitely elevated but not blasting your face off' range?

From what I can see and I may well be wrong but there isn't much out there. We know the deleterious effects of blasting your face off and uncontrolled blood pressure and the rest of it sure.

Just opening this up for discussion.

Dave Crossland talked about this multiple times on the Drugs n Stuff Podcast. He is running E-Val, a blood testing service in the UK. He has seen it on paper. Bloods just not getting back to normal baselines. Especially Hemotacrit and Red Blood Cell count being elevated all the time, and Neutrophils staying low. And blood lipids being out of range. This is just not a good thing long term.

We can't have our cake and eat it too, there are just trade-offs to be made here. I stay on 150mg, enough for me to get the good benefits, and my CBC Panel looks good, as does my Lipid Panel. So far, haven't lost muscle mass. Maintaining really doesn't seem to need much. Big But - I am not big (see avatar), so maybe it is different for mass monsters like Luki or b-boy.

Edit: And it took me a fucking lot of discussing with myself to not go on 250mg/week, thinking I would shrivel away to DYEL status over night. This was far from easy to be honest, and I still occasionally end up thinking "Hey, why not bump it up and maybe get abit more growth"

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Dave Crossland talked about this multiple times on the Drugs n Stuff Podcast. He is running E-Val, a blood testing service in the UK. He has seen it on paper. Bloods just not getting back to normal baselines. Especially Hemotacrit and Red Blood Cell count being elevated all the time, and Neutrophils staying low. And blood lipids being out of range. This is just not a good thing long term.

We can't have our cake and eat it too, there are just trade-offs to be made here. I stay on 150mg, enough for me to get the good benefits, and my CBC Panel looks good, as does my Lipid Panel. So far, haven't lost muscle mass. Maintaining really doesn't seem to need much. Big But - I am not big (see avatar), so maybe it is different for mass monsters like Luki or b-boy.

Edit: And it took me a fucking lot of discussing with myself to not go on 250mg/week, thinking I would shrivel away to DYEL status over night. This was far from easy to be honest, and I still occasionally end up thinking "Hey, why not bump it up and maybe get abit more growth"

Yeah I personally have zero intention of going any higher, just an interesting discussion as there genuinely doesn't seem to be much actual evidence to the contrary.

It's an interesting question (I think) because while there are negatives like you've pointed out there are also clear benefits, benefits which directly counter many of the ills of old age. These are building hormones, we're not talking cocaine or alcohol for example.

 

[Tomgrass]

I seen quite a few statement on this forum that the best bloodtest after few months was on 500mg test only. Also Milos speak about it. I think that if you manage your estro well it is not a horrible idea, IF your health allows it- for SOME people it will be only benefits non of the cons. Others will have to stay on more conservative dose. Only way to find out is simply try and do bloods after few months.

 

[Eguz22]

You look at Urs, and I’ve heard it directly from his mouth that his weight shoots up to the 270s on 3500 calories and 30 minutes Stepmill. What does that tell you? His body is dying to grow. It is fighting him so hard it’s damn near defying physics to grow. But he’s so irrationally stuck on staying classic he’s intentionally preventing himself from making progress. It’s insanity embodied.

Keone being classic was a waste of time, some guys in classic or 212 should learn this lesson.

 

[juggy38]

Genuinely curious here. How much evidence do we have on the long term implications to health of doses in that 'definitely elevated but not blasting your face off' range?

From what I can see and I may well be wrong but there isn't much out there. We know the deleterious effects of blasting your face off and uncontrolled blood pressure and the rest of it sure.

Just opening this up for discussion.

There has been a study on 600mg week for 10 weeks.

Clift notes….no more hazardous than 300mg for 10 weeks


But that tells us fuck all. 300mg vs 600mg 3 years straight? Then we might be able to piece apart the risks

 

[juggy38]

Cardiac Hypertrophy and renal health are what you’ll have to worry long term elevated TRTs.

 

[Steve123]

In the comments he states 200 is a reasonable starting point and you'll likely end up at 400-600.

Mark is 47.

I decided not to put this in the TRT section...

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200mg is a TRT starting point only for Anti Aging clinics in South Florida with a tandem massage therapy practice; a place where you can get a shot and then a rub-and-a-tug on your way out the door.

Otherwise, 200mg is a starting low dose cycle.

 

[Reno911]

Cardiac Hypertrophy and renal health are what you’ll have to worry long term elevated TRTs.

Somewhat agree but I think long term high blood pressure will do a lot more damage to the kidneys and heart than Test dosages over TRT.

 

[juggy38]

Somewhat agree but I think long term high blood pressure will do a lot more damage to the kidneys and heart than Test dosages over TRT.

Well yea…that’s what I was referring to. The hormone testosterone isn’t directly cytotoxic to kidneys

 

[Muay Thai]

Well yea…that’s what I was referring to. The hormone testosterone isn’t directly cytotoxic to kidneys

high BP and skewed values cardio-wise from test would be the culprit IMO if any

 

[buck]

Genuinely curious here. How much evidence do we have on the long term implications to health of doses in that 'definitely elevated but not blasting your face off' range?

From what I can see and I may well be wrong but there isn't much out there. We know the deleterious effects of blasting your face off and uncontrolled blood pressure and the rest of it sure.

Just opening this up for discussion.

Right off the bat if i have to take a drug to counteract the side effects of the drug i am taking i tend to think that is the bodies way of saying i am doing something unhealthy. Course then there are the side effects of the secondary drug and on we go. When i look at guys that have taken gear for decades such as Louie Simmons i can't see where they are living well into old age. He was 75 so not bad for how he lived. I have made my decision to shave years off. I can make arguments to make myself feel better about my choices. I prefer not to shave to many decades off i hope. In my decades of reading i can't say where i have really seen anything that shows being bigger, eating more doing drugs etc. is not bad for my health. I just get the best info i can to make a informed decision for myself. Others will have their own comfort zone.

 

[southernmucle214]

Right off the bat if i have to take a drug to counteract the side effects of the drug i am taking i tend to think that is the bodies way of saying i am doing something unhealthy. Course then there are the side effects of the secondary drug and on we go. When i look at guys that have taken gear for decades such as Louie Simmons i can't see where they are living well into old age. He was 75 so not bad for how he lived. I have made my decision to shave years off. I can make arguments to make myself feel better about my choices. I prefer not to shave to many decades off i hope. In my decades of reading i can't say where i have really seen anything that shows being bigger, eating more doing drugs etc. is not bad for my health. I just get the best info i can to make a informed decision for myself. Others will have their own comfort zone.

I would say that the massive injuries Louie Simmons suffered and powerlifting into late age waere huge contributing factors to him not living well into old age. Basically his body was beat up.

 

[KillerStack]

One therapy I think came out of Westside Barbell, was they shot water into an injured muscle, just hundreds of shots, prolotherapy I think it's called actually. These fellas were nuts and injuries would not keep them down lol. Greg Panora has some stories on IG. How about prolotherapy in a torn muscle except you mix in BPC, GH, TB500, IGF-1 and whatever else you can think of? Lol.

I still remember Louie's T-nation interview where he said he'd done roids for 30 years and he never saw it hurt anyone, unlike corticosteroids. He also cautioned against creatine. Now I'VE done gear for 30 years lol.

 

[Virtuous]

I would say that the massive injuries Louie Simmons suffered and powerlifting into late age waere huge contributing factors to him not living well into old age. Basically his body was beat up.

Probably worth mentioning he was fat too.

I love the guy and have bought his stuff (and his reverse hyper is amazing) but the dude had a gut, and his diet wasn’t great.

A fat 75 year old man dying probably shouldn’t be blamed on steroids. Muscle and strength help with some health related things, but it’s not a suit of armor

 

[b-boy]

My goal is to age like Vince Taylor.

 

[WeakFNG]

My goal is to age like Vince Taylor.

I second that. Dude is still incredible!

I can watch the video of his terminator posing routine every day and it never gets old.

 

[buck]

I would say that the massive injuries Louie Simmons suffered and powerlifting into late age waere huge contributing factors to him not living well into old age. Basically his body was beat up.

If having damaged muscles and joints lead to shorter life spans then i think a lot of people have definitely shortened their life span then already. Me being one of them. What gear users that are well know and have publicly stated they used far bigger doses of gear then TRT non stop for decades can you bring up? The more we can can look at the better.

 

[stackdizzy]

One therapy I think came out of Westside Barbell, was they shot water into an injured muscle, just hundreds of shots, prolotherapy I think it's called actually. These fellas were nuts and injuries would not keep them down lol. Greg Panora has some stories on IG. How about prolotherapy in a torn muscle except you mix in BPC, GH, TB500, IGF-1 and whatever else you can think of? Lol.

I still remember Louie's T-nation interview where he said he'd done roids for 30 years and he never saw it hurt anyone, unlike corticosteroids. He also cautioned against creatine. Now I'VE done gear for 30 years lol.

Yea I know local guys that would shoot a bunch of hydrogen peroxide, immediately if they believed it was a tear. I don't know anything about it as its been ages since I have talked to some of these guys so please no dms about it.