My experience w Serostim v generics

[MyNameIsJeff]

so why would one develop antibodies to a generic and not pharma if there is no difference in the products and they test on the money??? something doesn't add up.

Dimers and related proteins content differs slightly. But even these small differences have a large impact on the likelihood of developing antibodies. But as mentioned already, this does not negatively impact the physiological effects of the generics HGH in the short term since the vast majority of the product is 'clean' HGH molecules.

Only difference is the purity and concentration of Dimers and related proteins. So the HGH molecules that don't fit in that category (~99% for good generics) are in fact identical b/w pharma and generics.

 

[Anubis]

Dimers and related proteins content differs slightly. But even these small differences have a large impact on the likelihood of developing antibodies. But as mentioned already, this does not negatively impact the physiological effects of the generics HGH in the short term since the vast majority of the product is 'clean' HGH molecules.

and we conclusively know when antibodies are built up? or is this a guessing game?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

and we conclusively know when antibodies are built up? or is this a guessing game?

I don't think we know conclusively. But Dimers and structurally similar proteins to the HGH are pretty much the only sensible explanation.

BTW here is a source for the recommendation of taking breaks from generic HGH occasionally do reduce antibody levels. Of course, not everybody will develop antibodies, so a blood test for that would be ideal (thoug hhard to get and expensive). Short of that, one could look for diminished effects from the same HGH dose.

A 12.5-year-old Italian girl was referred to our institute for progressive growth failure from the age of 6 years, with a height of 128.2 cm (-3.37 SDS) and a bone age of 9 years. Endocrinological evaluation revealed a partial growth hormone deficiency (GHD) and GH therapy was started at a dosage of 0.25 mg/kg/week. During the first 3 years, she showed an increase in growth rate and experienced pubertal development onset. Then a poor growth rate (2 cm/year=0.43 SDS) was observed, notwithstanding an increase in GH dosage (0.35 mg/kg/week) and good compliance. We found a positive anti-GH antibody titre (1:1850, cutoff 1/100), confirmed 6 months later (1:2035); the antibodies had low binding capacity (0.63 μg/mL) and were only partially capable of inhibiting the GH effect. However, GH treatment was discontinued, and after 3 months the antibody titre decreased (1:950). In conclusion, we suggest evaluation of anti-GH antibodies in GH-treated idiopathic GHD children in whom growth response decreases after some years of therapy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15000864

 

[goal245]

so why would one develop antibodies to a generic and not pharma if there is no difference in the products and they test on the money??? something doesn't add up.

Antibodies could be a problem back when gh was made incorrectly with 192 amino acids (including pharm grade).

Now all hgh is correct with 191 amino acids with no chance of antibodies.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I ran Sero for a year straigh

I have also run highly rate generics

I would say not worth it money wise. Its not a game changer where i would say yes spend that extra cash

I have run it at 3.6
4.5 iu ED, 7.2 iu ed and even at 9iu ed for a short time

Honestly 4.5 iu i looked the best

But again i dont think its worth the money at the end of the day


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Exactly, I appreciate the post as I'm ALWAYS down to here good reports of GH but I feel like its 50/50. Ive heard dudes say they noticed no difference with Pharma and others like you say its night and day. I think this is very individual and anecdotal. No qualms here as I'll eventually TRY Pharma but it isn't overwhelmingly PRO Pharma from alllll the stuff I've read over the years on PM.

Thanks for the review and feedback though, we need to hear more stuff like this.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Antibodies could be a problem back when gh was made incorrectly with 192 amino acids (including pharm grade).

Now all hgh is correct with 191 amino acids with no chance of antibodies.

Absolute nonsense in fact, 192aa HGH seems to be no more likely to induce antibody formation than 191aa HGH. It's other kinds of structural alterations of the HGH molecule that seem to trigger antibody formation.

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12434920

 

[goal245]

Absolute nonsense in fact, 192aa HGH seems to be no more likely to induce antibody formation than 191aa HGH. It's other kinds of structural alterations of the HGH molecule that seem to trigger antibody formation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12434920

Ok why worry about something that has no real world effect, from your study:

No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%)

and I bet the doses used in the children were 20+ iu/day

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Ok why worry about something that has no real world effect, from your study:

No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%)

and I bet the doses used in the children were 20+ iu/day

Because in the study they used highly purified, pharma grade HGH?! Which you know, is not what most BB take?

 

[nothuman]

Exactly, I appreciate the post as I'm ALWAYS down to here good reports of GH but I feel like its 50/50. Ive heard dudes say they noticed no difference with Pharma and others like you say its night and day. I think this is very individual and anecdotal. No qualms here as I'll eventually TRY Pharma but it isn't overwhelmingly PRO Pharma from alllll the stuff I've read over the years on PM.

Thanks for the review and feedback though, we need to hear more stuff like this.

This. It seems to be pretty split. I tend to trust the testing more than someone's anecdotal experience, as I do in general when it comes to research vs what somebody claims works.

 

[thethinker48]

How you respond to pharma vs generic and different types of pharma vs generic is based on your own individual physiology.

Dr Scott Stevenson has done a video series on this. People really need to watch that if they want a better understanding of this.

There is no one size fits all approach with pharma vs generic and even peptides.

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[grizzly978]

Iu per Iu pharma is going to be superior but there are good generics out there that work really well.
I ran genos for like 4 months at 3 iu a day and then switched to generics at 5 iu a day and can tell no difference, and the genos were real.

 

[Geardepot]

I see this same debate going on with a lot of customers asking me "why would I pay for a 72 iu Humatrope kit when I can buy 100iu Grey top or Blk top generic for half the price?"

its difficult for me to answer this without bashing my own products but I try to be as real as I can with them. We carry the Humatrope kits and a few other generic/China based HGH kits as well. In my experience I can use 50% of the Humatrope and get the same effect. As the poster here said there is just something crazy with how it effects your vascularity and muscle fullness?! ..

On the same token I have had some awesome china based generics that are extremely strong and can hold their own agasint any pharm grade HGH. These are few and far between though and the high potency of these is not a consistent thing, meaning we can buy a batch of 200 kits that are awesome and test off the charts, but then a month later when we buy more we get the same product but it does not test as well (although its still great and every bit worth the $)..

 

[ill gotten gains]

Given the average price of pharma and the average price of a good generic, pharma is not 4x's better than a good generic.

 

[Ashop]

SEROSTIM has been amongst my top favorites. I have used others that have been just as good,,most of them pharma grade as well.

 

[muscle96ss]

The mind is a powerful thing. What many people don't realize is that there are some generics that are made by pharma companies and are identical in contents to the product that the pharma company has branded.

In fact, about a year ago, I saw a thread on another board comparing a generic(made by a pharma company) to a pharma GH(the one that produced the generic they were unknowingly comparing it to). I had to bite my tongue really hard to hold back from replying.

Somehow they came to the conclusion that pharma was so much better than generics. It wasn't propaganda, they actually believed it; like many of the stories we've heard on the boards. However, considering they were taking the same product, their conclusions were obviously due to either bias or other variables/factors that can't really be accounted for in an unscientific experiment such as this.

I have used a shitload of generics and pharma GH for many decades. A list with a lot of my IGF-1 and serum GH results are somewhere in RP's HGH Testing thread. Don't believe all the hype about pharma GH or about GH in general. GH will not make or break you and is not a game changer; just another tool in the tool box.

Also, if you are using a trusted generic from a proven reliable source; there is not going to be a difference between it and the pharma GH. With that said, every GH(including pharma) seems to respond differently in different people. Some cause more water retention and some cause less. Try different ones, and stick with what you find works best to your liking.

 

[mujeriego]

GH will not make or break you and is not a game changer; just another tool in the tool box.

This. I have used a lot of hgh, all pharma so can't comment on them vs generics. But this is a good point. The hype surrounding hgh is unreal. And I think that placebo effect is why people exaggerate it so much (plus a lot of people confusing the water retention/fullness as muscle). Pharma or not sorry but 6 weeks of 4iu doesn't make that much difference. Unless you didn't look that great to begin with

 

[n3mo0101]

Lol.....

I'm sure my fat loss, muscle growth, vascularity, sense of well being, energy, healthy looking skin and nails, faster growing hair and nails, loss of water, and many other things are ALL from the placebo effect some of you are talking so much about...

Its funny how I tell you MY experience, and then you try to tell ME that my interpretation of my experience is wrong, and its just a placebo effect.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR with growth, plain and simple. I would not be surprised at all to find out that many of the molecules within generic GH are actually toxic to the human body because of the improper folding of the amino acid chain.

I don't even know why I post on here sometimes to be honest. It's a waste of my time and gets my mind in a negative state after reading bullshit from uneducated, uninformed, inexperienced people who want to pretend they know what they're talking about...

 

[Explorerspl]

Lol.....

I'm sure my fat loss, muscle growth, vascularity, sense of well being, energy, healthy looking skin and nails, faster growing hair and nails, loss of water, and many other things are ALL from the placebo effect some of you are talking so much about...

Its funny how I tell you MY experience, and then you try to tell ME that my interpretation of my experience is wrong, and its just a placebo effect.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR with growth, plain and simple. I would not be surprised at all to find out that many of the molecules within generic GH are actually toxic to the human body because of the improper folding of the amino acid chain.

I don't even know why I post on here sometimes to be honest. It's a waste of my time and gets my mind in a negative state after reading bullshit from uneducated, uninformed, inexperienced people who want to pretend they know what they're talking about...

Makes a thread because he thinks one ester of a drug causes less sides than another ester of the same exact drug.

Calls everyone uneducated and uninformed.


Pot,kettle,black,etc

 

[goal245]

The mind is a powerful thing. What many people don't realize is that there are some generics that are made by pharma companies and are identical in contents to the product that the pharma company has branded.

I saw a video where they did a blind taste test comparing something like starbucks to a well brewed store brand and in the blind taste test no one could tell a difference, but when they put the starbucks label on the store brand coffee everyone said the store brand (thinking its starbucks) was so much better. Same goes for everything else when a higher price and branding/packaging is involved

 

[epoxy]

Lol.....

I'm sure my fat loss, muscle growth, vascularity, sense of well being, energy, healthy looking skin and nails, faster growing hair and nails, loss of water, and many other things are ALL from the placebo effect some of you are talking so much about...

Its funny how I tell you MY experience, and then you try to tell ME that my interpretation of my experience is wrong, and its just a placebo effect.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR with growth, plain and simple. I would not be surprised at all to find out that many of the molecules within generic GH are actually toxic to the human body because of the improper folding of the amino acid chain.

I don't even know why I post on here sometimes to be honest. It's a waste of my time and gets my mind in a negative state after reading bullshit from uneducated, uninformed, inexperienced people who want to pretend they know what they're talking about...

I don't think anyone is saying you are right or wrong brother, it seems like most people are saying it's on a case by case basis. Yes, this is your experience. But ya know what? I might be able to get away with using generics, paying less money, and getting the same, or shit, maybe even better, results than what you're getting.

No one's saying you are having "placebo effect" - but when you get all angry and try to tell people they are wrong for saying you're wrong (when no one's even saying you're straight up wrong) it looks bad. Honestly it looks like you're in here repping for Serostim like they're going to toss you some kickback money, which isn't true, but it looks a little silly.