Net Results + Side Effects From Gear

[Deleted member 106824]

Yeah, I think with gear I reached my genetic potential faster. I think naturally I can hold on to muscle. My father was a really big guy and he never even lifted. He was shorter than me though, I am 5'11.

I had echo done prior to gear when I was 20. I was rushed to emergency when I had methamphetamine overdose. They checked my heart with echo the next day and said I had no problems. Now when I was on TRT I went to Europe and used the oportunity to do a full diagnostic since medicine is free. That's when they picked up hypertrophy.

What's your bf% roughly? There's no way for me to know what my natural potential would have been so I guess whether or not gear just getting me to my natural peak faster will be ok will depend on how big that is lol I know given my predisposition to hold fat I can certainly hold a lot more muscle when fatter and shrink down to an annoying extent when cutting ("hey man did you stop lifting" :banghead: )

Was that echo while on TRT in between blasts, or after a long time not blasting? Not sure if you went on TRT only for awhile first before coming off completely.

Personally when I'm done I'd like to tell a doctor I "accidentally" took some supplements that I found out was gear or something and literally get everything I can think of checked after I come off gear. Bloodwork, echo, ekg (got one on gear and it was normal), abdominal ultrasounds, etc..

I know people say there is often cardiac hypertrophy in even natural weightlifters so even if I saw an enlarged heart on my echo I'm not sure I would know to chalk it up to AAS, but that's good yours went down. Maybe I should get all those tests right at the end of my gear use and then again a year later.

I recently had a liver ultrasound showing it was 17.7cm and apparently normal for a male is 12-14cm or so. My doctor said he wasn't concerned because some people just have larger livers "and it's not like you drink a lot" (doesn't know I'm on gear) but I saw one study say only 12% of participants had a liver above 16cm so I'm not sure what that's about.

 

[TT]

Sure thing it is a lot harder to be lean and muscular at the same time without AAS. I'am around 13%. In my first 6 months off it was really easy to get fat. I had my carbs to a minimum with low fat and high protein. Now it's gotten better. I can loose fat easier. During this time I get flat and it looks like I stopped working out but as soon as I refill glycogen my muscle fullness come back. What I am saying is that nutrition has to be adjusted and new methods reinvented for those that are off gear.

My liver was also enlarged and doc said not to worry about. Regarding heart I think TRT din't help since my last 2 years I even didn't have a chance to blast more than a month total because I had 2 injuries which limited my workouts and there was simply no need to blast. I Can't blame the hypertrophy on TRT though but rather it slowed down the reversal. I am pretty sure it could have been from my earlier years when I had larger doses + slin/gh and peps because that's when I noticed my energy levels and endurance took a dip and only after stopping TRT I started feeling more energized and overall well-being. I know it's a paradox for some but I guess we are all different and if some drug works for one person, it won't work for another.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Sure thing it is a lot harder to be lean and muscular at the same time without AAS. I'am around 13%. In my first 6 months off it was really easy to get fat. I had my carbs to a minimum with low fat and high protein. Now it's gotten better. I can loose fat easier. During this time I get flat and it looks like I stopped working out but as soon as I refill glycogen my muscle fullness come back. What I am saying is that nutrition has to be adjusted and new methods reinvented for those that are off gear.

My liver was also enlarged and doc said not to worry about. Regarding heart I think TRT din't help since my last 2 years I even didn't have a chance to blast more than a month total because I had 2 injuries which limited my workouts and there was simply no need to blast. I Can't blame the hypertrophy on TRT though but rather it slowed down the reversal. I am pretty sure it could have been from my earlier years when I had larger doses + slin/gh and peps because that's when I noticed my energy levels and endurance took a dip and only after stopping TRT I started feeling more energized and overall well-being. I know it's a paradox for some but I guess we are all different and if some drug works for one person, it won't work for another.

What was your TRT dose ?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Sure thing it is a lot harder to be lean and muscular at the same time without AAS. I'am around 13%. In my first 6 months off it was really easy to get fat. I had my carbs to a minimum with low fat and high protein. Now it's gotten better. I can loose fat easier. During this time I get flat and it looks like I stopped working out but as soon as I refill glycogen my muscle fullness come back. What I am saying is that nutrition has to be adjusted and new methods reinvented for those that are off gear.

My liver was also enlarged and doc said not to worry about. Regarding heart I think TRT din't help since my last 2 years I even didn't have a chance to blast more than a month total because I had 2 injuries which limited my workouts and there was simply no need to blast. I Can't blame the hypertrophy on TRT though but rather it slowed down the reversal. I am pretty sure it could have been from my earlier years when I had larger doses + slin/gh and peps because that's when I noticed my energy levels and endurance took a dip and only after stopping TRT I started feeling more energized and overall well-being. I know it's a paradox for some but I guess we are all different and if some drug works for one person, it won't work for another.

I was not aware you took GH as well. What were your doses like for that? I have seen a few pieces of evidence showing that one is at a much higher risk of cardiac hypertrophy when GH is thrown in with the AAS so I wonder if it was mostly the GH rather than the gear.

I hope my TRT is not hurting things....I often come off completely for the first 4 weeks post cycle since blood levels would still be above what TRT would give me anyway.

Have you gotten another liver ultrasound and has that enlargement decreased as well?

I'm glad to have your input in this thread. It shows I'm not alone in what I've been thinking. Honestly on these boards I often feel like I must be doing something wrong because I think most people who really stick to lifting seriously and go on gear tend to be those naturally good at it i.e. they have good genetics. At 205lb 13% you'd prob have to get down to around 190 to be 8% (not to mention when off gear cutting down seems to lose half muscle half fat). Most people online seem to think that one should "easily" be 200lb within a few years of natural training and 190lb lean should just take a few years of hard work and dedication. Yet with ~8 (guessing) years of serious training and 5 years of gear use AND keeping most of the gains from the gear that's the result you currently have. I am a similar height (6'0") and to be 8% after 3 years on gear I'd probably have to be around 185...I imagine after my 5 years on gear (if I stay on that long) I'd end up around 190-195 at 8% as well, but apparently most say that sucks (even though those same people will say Jeff Seid has amazing genetics and uses a ton of gear...when he is 6'0" 190-195lb 7% lol...)

 

[mewalrus]

I would say your doing something wrong if your 6' and it takes 3 years to hit 200lb @ 13%. But then again what is your goal? Its hard to weigh cost benefit without a defined goal.

Maybe its the fact that it sounds like you are basically at your goal except bf a little higher than ideal and as a result motivation and consistency have fallen off?

 

[TT]

What was your TRT dose ?

in the last 2 years it was 150/week, self-prescribed, blood levels around 900. Before that my cruise dose was 300/week and would come down to 150 only for about 3-4 months once a year.

 

[TT]

I was not aware you took GH as well. What were your doses like for that? I have seen a few pieces of evidence showing that one is at a much higher risk of cardiac hypertrophy when GH is thrown in with the AAS so I wonder if it was mostly the GH rather than the gear.

I hope my TRT is not hurting things....I often come off completely for the first 4 weeks post cycle since blood levels would still be above what TRT would give me anyway.

Have you gotten another liver ultrasound and has that enlargement decreased as well?

I'm glad to have your input in this thread. It shows I'm not alone in what I've been thinking. Honestly on these boards I often feel like I must be doing something wrong because I think most people who really stick to lifting seriously and go on gear tend to be those naturally good at it i.e. they have good genetics. At 205lb 13% you'd prob have to get down to around 190 to be 8% (not to mention when off gear cutting down seems to lose half muscle half fat). Most people online seem to think that one should "easily" be 200lb within a few years of natural training and 190lb lean should just take a few years of hard work and dedication. Yet with ~8 (guessing) years of serious training and 5 years of gear use AND keeping most of the gains from the gear that's the result you currently have. I am a similar height (6'0") and to be 8% after 3 years on gear I'd probably have to be around 185...I imagine after my 5 years on gear (if I stay on that long) I'd end up around 190-195 at 8% as well, but apparently most say that sucks (even though those same people will say Jeff Seid has amazing genetics and uses a ton of gear...when he is 6'0" 190-195lb 7% lol...)

My gh use varied. From 4iu daily split to 10 iu post w/o blast. Had best results with 10 iu blast by the way.

Didn't have a chance to do liver ultrasound but will do it in 2 months.

8% with good amount of muscle is very doable. It won't happen right away of course. When I came off TRT after 10 years of AAS my test was below or around 200 for 6 months. During that time I couldn't even dream about 8% since I was transforming muscle into fat no matter what I did. If I ate to maintain muscle I would get fat. If I dropped the calories to fight of fat I lost muscle. Now its different story. I feel like my body is returning to it's normal functioning. Can't wait to get the lab report.

 

[TT]

I would say your doing something wrong if your 6' and it takes 3 years to hit 200lb @ 13%. But then again what is your goal? Its hard to weigh cost benefit without a defined goal.

Maybe its the fact that it sounds like you are basically at your goal except bf a little higher than ideal and as a result motivation and consistency have fallen off?

Every one is different my friend. What's wrong is close minded thinking that every one is built equal. For example I put on more muscle in my first 2 years of lifting AAS than my friend who started lifting/AAS with me. He used and still uses more gear but just can't get there where I was.

And you are right, goals are different.

 

[LK3]

My gh use varied. From 4iu daily split to 10 iu post w/o blast. Had best results with 10 iu blast by the way.

Didn't have a chance to do liver ultrasound but will do it in 2 months.

8% with good amount of muscle is very doable. It won't happen right away of course. When I came off TRT after 10 years of AAS my test was below or around 200 for 6 months. During that time I couldn't even dream about 8% since I was transforming muscle into fat no matter what I did. If I ate to maintain muscle I would get fat. If I dropped the calories to fight of fat I lost muscle. Now its different story. I feel like my body is returning to it's normal functioning. Can't wait to get the lab report.

may want to look into lipostabil and glutathione for liver issues.

**broken link removed**

Return to Treatments Available Page

Phosphatidylcholine Therapy - Phosphatidylcholine (specifically 1,2-dilinolenyphosphatidylcholine) is the most effective therapy in the anti-atherosclerotic armamentarium. This molecule, which we will refer to as essential phospholipid or PC, improves cell membrane function, increasing absorption of oxygen and nutrition at the cellular level. PC stimulates the HDL-associated enzymes of reverse cholesterol transport, promoting the removal of excess cholesterol from our cells, including the endothelial cells that line our arteries. PC has been shown to improve blood flow and reduce symptoms in humans with narrowed arteries, and to anatomically reverse atherosclerotic narrowings in animals and in humans.

History and Availability - In Europe, PC is a now-off-patent drug, available under the trade names Lipostabil or N-Essentialle. In researching PC, I found reference to 1500 papers or abstracts documenting its efficacy in cardiovascular, neurological, and liver disease. PC is now off patent, and as such is ignored in standard European medicine (I gave a talk in Monaco and most of the doctors in attendance thought that PC was something new from America). PC is a distillate of soybean lecithin, a natural material, and as such PC cannot be patent protected in the US. No drug company would or will fund PC research. Thus PC never became a drug, and only recently have nutritionally oriented Americans physicians become aware of its anti-atherosclerotic benefits. PC can be legally imported into the US to treat individual patients, and PC is now available to US physicians from American compounding pharmacies. This molecule is available in oral form, over-the counter, under the trade name of Phoschol, or admixed with EDTA as DeToxMax, a better absorbed and thus more clinically powerful preparation. A low cost approximate of PC can be obtained by taking soybean lecithin and linoleic acid (safflower or sunflower oil) together, the foundation of the Rinse Formula. A booklet describing the Rinse Formula, and Dr. Jacob Rinse, can be found in most health food stores. Dr. Rinse was a brilliant man. He used his knowledge of biochemistry to reverse his own heart disease (at about the time that I was born). Dr. Stephen Sinatra, who I collaborated with in writing Reverse Heart Disease Now, had the privilege of meeting Dr. Rinse.

 

[TT]

may want to look into lipostabil and glutathione for liver issues.

**broken link removed**

Return to Treatments Available Page

Phosphatidylcholine Therapy - Phosphatidylcholine (specifically 1,2-dilinolenyphosphatidylcholine) is the most effective therapy in the anti-atherosclerotic armamentarium. This molecule, which we will refer to as essential phospholipid or PC, improves cell membrane function, increasing absorption of oxygen and nutrition at the cellular level. PC stimulates the HDL-associated enzymes of reverse cholesterol transport, promoting the removal of excess cholesterol from our cells, including the endothelial cells that line our arteries. PC has been shown to improve blood flow and reduce symptoms in humans with narrowed arteries, and to anatomically reverse atherosclerotic narrowings in animals and in humans.

History and Availability - In Europe, PC is a now-off-patent drug, available under the trade names Lipostabil or N-Essentialle. In researching PC, I found reference to 1500 papers or abstracts documenting its efficacy in cardiovascular, neurological, and liver disease. PC is now off patent, and as such is ignored in standard European medicine (I gave a talk in Monaco and most of the doctors in attendance thought that PC was something new from America). PC is a distillate of soybean lecithin, a natural material, and as such PC cannot be patent protected in the US. No drug company would or will fund PC research. Thus PC never became a drug, and only recently have nutritionally oriented Americans physicians become aware of its anti-atherosclerotic benefits. PC can be legally imported into the US to treat individual patients, and PC is now available to US physicians from American compounding pharmacies. This molecule is available in oral form, over-the counter, under the trade name of Phoschol, or admixed with EDTA as DeToxMax, a better absorbed and thus more clinically powerful preparation. A low cost approximate of PC can be obtained by taking soybean lecithin and linoleic acid (safflower or sunflower oil) together, the foundation of the Rinse Formula. A booklet describing the Rinse Formula, and Dr. Jacob Rinse, can be found in most health food stores. Dr. Rinse was a brilliant man. He used his knowledge of biochemistry to reverse his own heart disease (at about the time that I was born). Dr. Stephen Sinatra, who I collaborated with in writing Reverse Heart Disease Now, had the privilege of meeting Dr. Rinse.

Good read. Thank you for heads up. I actually used that when I was in Europe. It was called Essentialle Forte. I didn't know about the complete list of benefits you listed. Will have to order some for sure.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

My gh use varied. From 4iu daily split to 10 iu post w/o blast. Had best results with 10 iu blast by the way.

Didn't have a chance to do liver ultrasound but will do it in 2 months.

8% with good amount of muscle is very doable. It won't happen right away of course. When I came off TRT after 10 years of AAS my test was below or around 200 for 6 months. During that time I couldn't even dream about 8% since I was transforming muscle into fat no matter what I did. If I ate to maintain muscle I would get fat. If I dropped the calories to fight of fat I lost muscle. Now its different story. I feel like my body is returning to it's normal functioning. Can't wait to get the lab report.

I know exactly what you mean....you eat enough to maintain the muscle but with that comes 5% body fat or you try to diet down and basically just become a smaller version. This is what happened to me when I tried to cut after my first cycle, shrunk right back to where I was losing at least as much muscle as fat.

That's why I'd be worried about coming off TRT. Like I said when I stop blasting and cruising I may stay on TRT for life but if not I'd like to stay on TRT at least for one year to see what I can hold onto. It sounds like being on TRT for awhile didn't help that for you though. So to be clear in those last 2 years on TRT you were still at your maximum amount of muscle even on just 150mg per week, and it wasn't until you dropped the TRT completely that you suddenly lost the 10lb of muscle? And now you feel better but you're still 10lb or so below your max? Man I'd definitely be worried about stopping TRT in that case.

Definitely interested in how your liver results come back too.

I would say your doing something wrong if your 6' and it takes 3 years to hit 200lb @ 13%. But then again what is your goal? Its hard to weigh cost benefit without a defined goal.

Maybe its the fact that it sounds like you are basically at your goal except bf a little higher than ideal and as a result motivation and consistency have fallen off?

Every one is different my friend. What's wrong is close minded thinking that every one is built equal. For example I put on more muscle in my first 2 years of lifting AAS than my friend who started lifting/AAS with me. He used and still uses more gear but just can't get there where I was.

And you are right, goals are different.

Mewalrus, As TT said I think it's just differences in genetics. I started pretty young and I was 130lb. So now around 195-200 is a huge jump but a lot of guys are starting at 170lb so in that case yea they could probably be 195 in their first few years and go from there. I've spent 8 years never skipping a workout, never skipping meals, working with a few coaches, etc...so it's certainly not due to a lack of effort lol.

Also as TT said, he got beyond where his friends can even get with more gear and that was still only 215lb at 13% after 10 years on gear up to 1.5g, GH, etc...so when I hear things like that I sometimes wonder if everyone has this skewed view of what's realistic for most? I really don't know if I'm right about this but it doesn't seem that unusual in the real world (i.e. not bodybuilding forums).

may want to look into lipostabil and glutathione for liver issues.

**broken link removed**

Return to Treatments Available Page

Phosphatidylcholine Therapy - Phosphatidylcholine (specifically 1,2-dilinolenyphosphatidylcholine) is the most effective therapy in the anti-atherosclerotic armamentarium. This molecule, which we will refer to as essential phospholipid or PC, improves cell membrane function, increasing absorption of oxygen and nutrition at the cellular level. PC stimulates the HDL-associated enzymes of reverse cholesterol transport, promoting the removal of excess cholesterol from our cells, including the endothelial cells that line our arteries. PC has been shown to improve blood flow and reduce symptoms in humans with narrowed arteries, and to anatomically reverse atherosclerotic narrowings in animals and in humans.

History and Availability - In Europe, PC is a now-off-patent drug, available under the trade names Lipostabil or N-Essentialle. In researching PC, I found reference to 1500 papers or abstracts documenting its efficacy in cardiovascular, neurological, and liver disease. PC is now off patent, and as such is ignored in standard European medicine (I gave a talk in Monaco and most of the doctors in attendance thought that PC was something new from America). PC is a distillate of soybean lecithin, a natural material, and as such PC cannot be patent protected in the US. No drug company would or will fund PC research. Thus PC never became a drug, and only recently have nutritionally oriented Americans physicians become aware of its anti-atherosclerotic benefits. PC can be legally imported into the US to treat individual patients, and PC is now available to US physicians from American compounding pharmacies. This molecule is available in oral form, over-the counter, under the trade name of Phoschol, or admixed with EDTA as DeToxMax, a better absorbed and thus more clinically powerful preparation. A low cost approximate of PC can be obtained by taking soybean lecithin and linoleic acid (safflower or sunflower oil) together, the foundation of the Rinse Formula. A booklet describing the Rinse Formula, and Dr. Jacob Rinse, can be found in most health food stores. Dr. Rinse was a brilliant man. He used his knowledge of biochemistry to reverse his own heart disease (at about the time that I was born). Dr. Stephen Sinatra, who I collaborated with in writing Reverse Heart Disease Now, had the privilege of meeting Dr. Rinse.

Thanks for posting this, will have to look into it. Seems odd something that could be so beneficial wouldn't be more well known.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

LK3, I briefly looked up Phosphatidylcholine and it seems like there is a lot of mixed information on it. Here is a study showing its metabolites increased the risk of atherosclerosis Gut flora metabolism of phosphatidylcholine promotes ... [Nature. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI


TT (and others), did you find you had to pick up another hobby or at least try to focus on bodybuilding less once you came off the gear? Despite non-remarkable results bodybuilding has been my passion since I was 14. Hence why it's so hard for me to give up using gear. When I do I imagine I will need to try to focus on something else I can progress with to not be so bummed out about stagnating in the bodybuilding progress. I've picked up some things here and there but never cared nearly as much as I do with this. To be honest I think my lack of results is half the reason I care so much, there has been so much investment in it I just kept putting more and more effort in to reach my goals that now I don't even know what I would do if it wasn't a huge part of my life and I was just maintaining. Not to mention being on gear means I now hold myself to a higher standard (i.e. I've used gear so I better be standing out, if that makes sense)

 

[LK3]

Good read. Thank you for heads up. I actually used that when I was in Europe. It was called Essentialle Forte. I didn't know about the complete list of benefits you listed. Will have to order some for sure.

[email protected] for a list. we have great prices and can do trial sizes.

 

[LK3]

I know exactly what you mean....you eat enough to maintain the muscle but with that comes 5% body fat or you try to diet down and basically just become a smaller version. This is what happened to me when I tried to cut after my first cycle, shrunk right back to where I was losing at least as much muscle as fat.

That's why I'd be worried about coming off TRT. Like I said when I stop blasting and cruising I may stay on TRT for life but if not I'd like to stay on TRT at least for one year to see what I can hold onto. It sounds like being on TRT for awhile didn't help that for you though. So to be clear in those last 2 years on TRT you were still at your maximum amount of muscle even on just 150mg per week, and it wasn't until you dropped the TRT completely that you suddenly lost the 10lb of muscle? And now you feel better but you're still 10lb or so below your max? Man I'd definitely be worried about stopping TRT in that case.

Definitely interested in how your liver results come back too.






Mewalrus, As TT said I think it's just differences in genetics. I started pretty young and I was 130lb. So now around 195-200 is a huge jump but a lot of guys are starting at 170lb so in that case yea they could probably be 195 in their first few years and go from there. I've spent 8 years never skipping a workout, never skipping meals, working with a few coaches, etc...so it's certainly not due to a lack of effort lol.

Also as TT said, he got beyond where his friends can even get with more gear and that was still only 215lb at 13% after 10 years on gear up to 1.5g, GH, etc...so when I hear things like that I sometimes wonder if everyone has this skewed view of what's realistic for most? I really don't know if I'm right about this but it doesn't seem that unusual in the real world (i.e. not bodybuilding forums).



Thanks for posting this, will have to look into it. Seems odd something that could be so beneficial wouldn't be more well known.

its a natural compound, cant be not patent on it,no drug company can make real money with it. anything like this is gona be put down by much of modern medicine, im actually surprised by the amount of good info on it. this is something that they will try and discredit.

I just read that study too, its on mice and metabolites, not even actual compound... lots of human info out there.

 

[TT]

When I talked to doctors in Europe about my plans to come off, they all couldn't stress enough importance of weight lifting. Even though I always find myself different hobbies, bodybuilding is sure my favorite. Actually, my passion for weight lifting and desire to be able to do it years from now, factored into my decision to let off the gas. I had a distal bicep tendon surgically repaired, my rotator cuff is shut, hiatus hernia but I still love this sport. Now since I am off, I enjoy the new challenge - hitting those weights natural. Sometimes I do have thoughts about jumping back (and who knows, maybe I will) but it feels to good to be free from gear. I guess priorities change with age

 

[Cerberus777]

Pumped, I was 125lb 5' 5" and around 10% bf when I started lifting, in 3 years I was 185 @8% when I started AAS. Largest gains on a cycle other than water was 10lbs.

At my biggest/ leanest before I joined forums I was on 3g and gh slin, the highest and at those doses I had bad sides, under 1.5g everything is easily manageable. I havent done gh or slin in a long time.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

When I talked to doctors in Europe about my plans to come off, they all couldn't stress enough importance of weight lifting. Even though I always find myself different hobbies, bodybuilding is sure my favorite. Actually, my passion for weight lifting and desire to be able to do it years from now, factored into my decision to let off the gas. I had a distal bicep tendon surgically repaired, my rotator cuff is shut, hiatus hernia but I still love this sport. Now since I am off, I enjoy the new challenge - hitting those weights natural. Sometimes I do have thoughts about jumping back (and who knows, maybe I will) but it feels to good to be free from gear. I guess priorities change with age

I feel ya man, that's kind of what I've been thinking about. While I love BBing it certainly stresses me out at times (generally due to lack of desired results) but I would say that has been amplified by being on gear because I feel like, by using AAS, I must now attain an even high level of progression. If I was natural right now I would still kill myself in the gym but I'd probably be fine with doing my best and maybe putting on 2-3lb per year of actual muscle at this point. With gear I feel like I'm in a race against the clock because I know I'm going to come off within 1-3 years so if I'm not making crazy progress I feel like I'm wasting my time and doing damage for nothing.

Have you made any true progress since you lost those 10lb coming off gear? Do you think with everything stabilized you could start gaining again or do you think you've maxed out?

Part of me feels like it would be awesome to come off and make progress past the point I got to on gear, but then another part of me realizes that doing so would mean I really didn't get anything out of gear that I couldn't have gotten naturally with some more time lol.

Edit: Not sure if you missed it but I think you said the 10lb you lost came after you came off the TRT so I assume you maintained your max size with TRT. Was there any big reason you decided not to just stay on TRT at 125-150mg? I would assume all of the health markers would have eventually gone back to normal but can't say for sure.

Pumped, I was 125lb 5' 5" and around 10% bf when I started lifting, in 3 years I was 185 @8% when I started AAS. Largest gains on a cycle other than water was 10lbs.

At my biggest/ leanest before I joined forums I was on 3g and gh slin, the highest and at those doses I had bad sides, under 1.5g everything is easily manageable. I havent done gh or slin in a long time.

185lb 8% at 5'5" is very impressive naturally man especially in 3 years.

I had no idea you went up to 3g + GH + slin. What was the biggest you got doing that? If I recall you're around low 200's right now.

Do you mostly just focus on keeping lower doses now and trying to make small improvements even if you wouldn't get back to where you were on the really high doses?

 

[jrock00123]

I had been playing with oral prohormones and such for a few years. Just started injecting last year. I'm on TRT so it was easy to just stat adding a little more test. Not soon after it became a little tren and mast just to see how I would react.

About five years ago I was a Crossfit guy (yes before it was popular). Weighed about 170lb at approx 11%. Today I'm 190 and just as lean. My goal is modest, 195lb at a true 9%. I figure ill need to overshoot a little to compensate for some mass losses when I reduce AAS dosages. After that I'd like to take the approach LK has outlined - basically TRT with some peptides, curc and res.

Overall I don't regret anything. I wish I was smarter and stayed away from the harsh orals, but I've learned my lesson and now look forward to some steady lean gains and excellent physical health.

As for quitting bodybuilding when I reduce gear -- never. I love this hobby and can't picture my life without it. It doesn't mater to me if I need to fight tooth and nail to net a few pounds per year. It's still progress and I'll still be proud of it.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I had been playing with oral prohormones and such for a few years. Just started injecting last year. I'm on TRT so it was easy to just stat adding a little more test. Not soon after it became a little tren and mast just to see how I would react.

About five years ago I was a Crossfit guy (yes before it was popular). Weighed about 170lb at approx 11%. Today I'm 190 and just as lean. My goal is modest, 195lb at a true 9%. I figure ill need to overshoot a little to compensate for some mass losses when I reduce AAS dosages. After that I'd like to take the approach LK has outlined - basically TRT with some peptides, curc and res.

Overall I don't regret anything. I wish I was smarter and stayed away from the harsh orals, but I've learned my lesson and now look forward to some steady lean gains and excellent physical health.

As for quitting bodybuilding when I reduce gear -- never. I love this hobby and can't picture my life without it. It doesn't mater to me if I need to fight tooth and nail to net a few pounds per year. It's still progress and I'll still be proud of it.

I agree about the orals, I don't regret trying gear but I definitely regret doing all the orals. They were strong as hell but I probably lost the results from half of those cycles afterwards anyway, at least. Not to mention how much they tanked HDL and who knows what else.

As for the last part of your post, gaining just a few pounds per year would be perfectly fine once coming off AAS but if you truly got beyond where you otherwise could have without the AAS then most would say that's impossible. You said yourself you'd have to overshoot a bit because you'd be losing mass once lowering the doses, so if you're saying you know you're going to lose size when lowering it then surely you won't be gaining past that point with even less.

Not that I would/could ever give up BBing either, but was just curious if others who went off ever found it helpful to try picking up other hobbies in addition to try to lessen the blow of stalled progress.

Out of curiosity, how tall are you? What have your doses gone up to?

 

[jrock00123]

As for the last part of your post, gaining just a few pounds per year would be perfectly fine once coming off AAS but if you truly got beyond where you otherwise could have without the AAS then most would say that's impossible. You said yourself you'd have to overshoot a bit because you'd be losing mass once lowering the doses, so if you're saying you know you're going to lose size when lowering it then surely you won't be gaining past that point with even less.

Out of curiosity, how tall are you? What have your doses gone up to?

I'm not sure about this. For example, I'm currently on 200mg tren + 400mg test. If I reduced to 150mg test tomorrow, over the next couple of weeks I would likely lose about 5lbs if my diet and training remained constant. Some of this would be water and glycogen. The stronger dosages cause increased uptake of both.

With that said, I do believe I could continue to make gains over time. Nutrition and training would be critical. I would need to be smart about both, but fortunately I have learned a lot over the years and continue to learn every day.

I'm 6 ft. This is about the highest dose for me. I'm dropping the tren this week and moving test to 750mg. Maybe I'll go to 1gm the last few weeks before the cycle is finished at the end of October. I'm also using peps and low dose slin. I have log if you're interested.

I know most here don't believe in tapering, but I'm going to drop the dose by 250mg per week and level out around 150mg. During this time my diet will remain constant. Training intensity will also remain high, but volume may decrease a bit. I'll drop the slin, but continue the peps until the test dose is at 150mg for a few weeks. After that, hopefully a TRT dose plus LK's curc + res combo will keep me lean. I'll then rely on training and diet to make future gains.