Net Results + Side Effects From Gear

[buck]

started training late in life. over 200lbs got down to 160 after 3-4 months with a huge strength gain. competed at my first show 2 years later at 172 lbs. i am 5'6". managed to compete in the light heavy class while still a natural. after 10+ years training naturally i went on TRT started cycling a short time later. figure i put on 30+ lbs in the 10 years i was natural. maybe added another 10 or so while getting into the 5-6% bf range while cycling. my strength did not sky rocket after being on, but i already had a good idea about training and eating after all the years being natural.

 

[LK3]

I'm not sure about this. For example, I'm currently on 200mg tren + 400mg test. If I reduced to 150mg test tomorrow, over the next couple of weeks I would likely lose about 5lbs if my diet and training remained constant. Some of this would be water and glycogen. The stronger dosages cause increased uptake of both.

With that said, I do believe I could continue to make gains over time. Nutrition and training would be critical. I would need to be smart about both, but fortunately I have learned a lot over the years and continue to learn every day.

I'm 6 ft. This is about the highest dose for me. I'm dropping the tren this week and moving test to 750mg. Maybe I'll go to 1gm the last few weeks before the cycle is finished at the end of October. I'm also using peps and low dose slin. I have log if you're interested.

I know most here don't believe in tapering, but I'm going to drop the dose by 250mg per week and level out around 150mg. During this time my diet will remain constant. Training intensity will also remain high, but volume may decrease a bit. I'll drop the slin, but continue the peps until the test dose is at 150mg for a few weeks. After that, hopefully a TRT dose plus LK's curc + res combo will keep me lean. I'll then rely on training and diet to make future gains.

once you put the whole thing together, the antiox, a little test and some peptides or GH it really is amazing, like running 1000-1500mgs of gear without the sides, you stay lean and hold onto a LOT of muscle.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I'm not sure about this. For example, I'm currently on 200mg tren + 400mg test. If I reduced to 150mg test tomorrow, over the next couple of weeks I would likely lose about 5lbs if my diet and training remained constant. Some of this would be water and glycogen. The stronger dosages cause increased uptake of both.

With that said, I do believe I could continue to make gains over time. Nutrition and training would be critical. I would need to be smart about both, but fortunately I have learned a lot over the years and continue to learn every day.

I'm 6 ft. This is about the highest dose for me. I'm dropping the tren this week and moving test to 750mg. Maybe I'll go to 1gm the last few weeks before the cycle is finished at the end of October. I'm also using peps and low dose slin. I have log if you're interested.

I know most here don't believe in tapering, but I'm going to drop the dose by 250mg per week and level out around 150mg. During this time my diet will remain constant. Training intensity will also remain high, but volume may decrease a bit. I'll drop the slin, but continue the peps until the test dose is at 150mg for a few weeks. After that, hopefully a TRT dose plus LK's curc + res combo will keep me lean. I'll then rely on training and diet to make future gains.

I see what you're saying, so the glycogen/water loss and "temporary gains". I thought you meant maxing out gains on a given dose and then coming down from that.

Your stats are just one more example showing my point earlier in this thread. We're both the same height and have similar weights and bf% (I am 192.6lb as of this morning, maybe 13-14%). I have been training for 7-8 years, 5 natural and 2-3 on gear. You have been training for 10+ years and 1 on gear. Also looking at your log I am considerably stronger. I don't mean that last sentence as boasting, but just more to emphasize how I really don't get these people talking about being 210+ lean with 300+ benches and 500+ squats naturally within a few years and blowing up 30lb from that point on gear. I'm not saying this doesn't happen but whenever I give my stats everyone online seems to think I should be way further along but you, TT and I all have similar stats with similar experience (TT having been on gear considerably longer though). Same in person...all of my friends having lifted 5-6 years are between 180-200lb 8-14%. Don't get the e-stats lol but I guess that's another whole point itself.

I wonder how much we would be able to gain/maintain on just true TRT. If I just finish up the gear I have on me (which is too much lol) it would probably last another year or so. At that point I'd be on TRT for at least a year, I wonder if it would be realistic for us at 6ft and somewhat average genetics to get to say 195 at a true 8-10% with just say 125mg TRT given where we are now after so many years training.

started training late in life. over 200lbs got down to 160 after 3-4 months with a huge strength gain. competed at my first show 2 years later at 172 lbs. i am 5'6". managed to compete in the light heavy class while still a natural. after 10+ years training naturally i went on TRT started cycling a short time later. figure i put on 30+ lbs in the 10 years i was natural. maybe added another 10 or so while getting into the 5-6% bf range while cycling. my strength did not sky rocket after being on, but i already had a good idea about training and eating after all the years being natural.

So to clarify, you got to 172lb and contest condition naturally, and then maybe 182lb on gear? How high were your doses?

You mentioned there was a period of time where you went from being natural to just being on TRT before you began cycling. When you were on just the TRT did you notice any increase in results compared to when you were natural?

Lastly, what was your pre-AAS strength and current strength?

Edit: Oh and any noticeable lasting side effects?

 

[TT]

Got my test results back yesterday - 252

Needless to say I am more than disappointed. I was so upset I even didn't talk to anybody all day yesterday. I hoped to have at least 400 because I felt really good and could see changes in my body. It must be just positive thinking and diet modification. It seems that HRT is my future now.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Got my test results back yesterday - 252

Needless to say I am more than disappointed. I was so upset I even didn't talk to anybody all day yesterday. I hoped to have at least 400 because I felt really good and could see changes in my body. It must be just positive thinking and diet modification. It seems that HRT is my future now.

Thank you for the update. If you feel good and your body is changing for the better then why do you feel the need to get on TRT? Just for health purposes?

You did mention you didn't lose those 10lb until you came off everything, so maybe going back on TRT will allow you get get some of those gains back while staying in the upper normal range

 

[jrock00123]

I wonder how much we would be able to gain/maintain on just true TRT. If I just finish up the gear I have on me (which is too much lol) it would probably last another year or so. At that point I'd be on TRT for at least a year, I wonder if it would be realistic for us at 6ft and somewhat average genetics to get to say 195 at a true 8-10% with just say 125mg TRT given where we are now after so many years training.

I think your discounting other influences too much. Yes, a high-end-of-normal testosterone level is likely needed to make much progress. However, after that, diet, training, sleep, stress, etc. play very important roles.

Our genetics are out of our control. If we decide to limit AAS use to TRT levels, then hormone levels are also out of our control. However, training, diet and other lifestyle factors are still very much controllable.

Is your diet always on point? Is training intensity, volume, frequency, recovery ideal? Do you get enough sleep? In know in my case, these are good, but there is always room for improvement. Pushing ourselves in the areas that are within our control is all we can do.

I believe progress can be made. It sounds like you're committed on move to a TRT dose level. I commend you on this decision and will join you there within the next year. Once you're there, don't second guess the decision and most of all don't make excuses. Embrace it. Give your diet and training 110%. Expect more of yourself and be proud of any progress no matter how small.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I think your discounting other influences too much. Yes, a high-end-of-normal testosterone level is likely needed to make much progress. However, after that, diet, training, sleep, stress, etc. play very important roles.

Our genetics are out of our control. If we decide to limit AAS use to TRT levels, then hormone levels are also out of our control. However, training, diet and other lifestyle factors are still very much controllable.

Is your diet always on point? Is training intensity, volume, frequency, recovery ideal? Do you get enough sleep? In know in my case, these are good, but there is always room for improvement. Pushing ourselves in the areas that are within our control is all we can do.

I believe progress can be made. It sounds like you're committed on move to a TRT dose level. I commend you on this decision and will join you there within the next year. Once you're there, don't second guess the decision and most of all don't make excuses. Embrace it. Give your diet and training 110%. Expect more of yourself and be proud of any progress no matter how small.

Well yes, in theorizing if it was possible I was assuming all other controllable factors were being optimized to make this happen. Training programming, sleep, stress management and diet are certainly critical but of course lack of the correct hormonal environment can be a very limiting factor and the one we would potentially be dealing with.

For the record I don't plan to move to TRT permanently just yet. I think you and I will have similar timelines...a 1-2 more years of blasting and cruising then TRT to maintain or possible make very small progress after that.

I think once I eventually do make that decision I will be more OK with it. I tend to compartmentalize things well and so if I am prepared for a drastic slow down in progress once coming off then I will be more OK in accepting that, as opposed to expecting a lot of progress and being frustrated that it's not coming. That's part of what I was saying earlier in this thread regarding feeling more stressed on gear in a way because I need to make as much progress as possible while on to optimize the (relatively) little time I have left on gear to do so (of course I will still try as hard as possible when I switch to just TRT) and because of the potential lasting negatives. Hopefully I can reach a point I'm more satisfied with in the next few years with no noticeable lasting side effects. Once I make the switch to TRT I would be more than OK with 1-3lb per year if that's even possible.

 

[mewalrus]

seems like everyone is just going to blast ONE more year or so

or just do moderate cycles "after this one"

me to next year I'll use sensible doses

 

[Deleted member 106824]

seems like everyone is just going to blast ONE more year or so

or just do moderate cycles "after this one"

me to next year I'll use sensible doses

Just need a few more 20iu GH + 3g AAS + 100iu Slin cycles and I'm going all natty brother


To be honest though I was never one to say I was just going to do one cycle, I knew from the start what was involved. Due to getting bunk/underdosed gear I did have about a 1 year period where I used more orals than I should have for sure but otherwise never really went against what my original plan was, and have since stopped all orals. I may end things sooner but likely I will stick to my plan of ending things once I graduate / finish my residency at 26 which I am mentally prepared to do. And that itself is ending things considerably earlier than originally intended (never set a date when starting but figured I could be cycling until I was 30+).

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Very cool study I found if anyone's interested Increased mortality rate and suicide in Swedish former elite male athletes in power sports - Lindqvist - 2013 - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports - Wiley Online Library


And uses the same smoking analogy I used.

"In the age period beyond 60, the mortality rate was actually lower in the athlete cohort. This mortality pattern might have several explanations. For example, the positive effects of elite training on life expectancy and general well-being, previously shown, might also exaggerate the positive mortality curve in favor of the studied athletes Furthermore, assuming that the studied deceased athletes did use AAS and assuming that there is a link between AAS use and mortality, it seems plausible that the increased mortality is associated with the period of the actual AAS use. In fact, results from our research group did show that AAS use among the former elite athletes was restricted in time to their active sport career (Lindqvist et al., 2013). Thus, the decrease in death risk with time from the active sport career, and thereby probably the end of their believed AAS use, might be comparable to the positive effect on life expectancy among smokers who eventually stop their smoking habit."

 

[jrock00123]

Perhaps, but those are ALOT of assumptions. Just an observation: I've noticed that many athletes are unable to adjust their diet post-career. That along with greatly recused training is not a good combo. Some of these former pros end up severely overweight and downright unhealthy.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Perhaps, but those are ALOT of assumptions. Just an observation: I've noticed that many athletes are unable to adjust their diet post-career. That along with greatly recused training is not a good combo. Some of these former pros end up severely overweight and downright unhealthy.

I'm thinking you're saying that based on the title of the study and not what the study actually showed. Did you read the conclusions?

The title is misleading, the actual findings were that these elite athletes did not have an increased mortality risk (other than the period from 40-50 years old or so, but it was a lower risk later on so it averaged out to be about the same). Rate of cardiovascular disease was about the same, suicide was up, and cancer was down.

Therefore your statement would be further evidence that their lifespans could have been even longer than the general population if they kept up with their diet and training. Which I hope we all plan to do.

Not that this guarantees anything...one could argue that elite athletes should have considerably longer life spans than the general population given their diets and training (compared to the relatively unhealthy lives of the general population) so for a given individual the AAS use may decrease their lifespan but this was leveled out by the increase in lifespan seen with good diet and exercise. Of course that is speculative but it's nice to at least see it's not like it's 10+ years less than the general population.