Paul Carter on volume

[Big Dave Smith]

What a bunch of small pussies!

 

[xpoc]

This is the beauty of Scott's fortitude training.The program covers everything from volume,pump sets,progessive overload and deloads(intensive cruises).

I purchased this program and I like that it is counter culture to the norm. 4x per week training, essentially total body (turbo) with a variety of loading techniques (muscle rounds, pump sets) and rep ranges. And yes, plenty of sets to failure.

 

[qbkilla]

If your goal is to be a bodybuilder, accumulating tissue is paramount.

I’ve used my own version of RIR with great success. I’m also one of Dante’s last clients.

This has turned into a virtue signaling garbage thread. Training with max intensity is NOT the end all be all. There is a time and place for both.

I’m actual friends with Mike Israetal, Jared Feather, and Charly Joung. I’ve watched them train dozens and dozens of times over the years. All of these guys are crazy smart, all of them have beyond impressive muscle mass, and NONE of them are using as many drugs as people on this forum.
We’ve had deep discussions on all aspects training, diet, drugs, and life.

Do I agree with everything they say/do? No.

Do I agree with more than less? YES


Intensity and failure are NOT the reasons why people grow.

If you want hypertrophy, adhering to a LOGICAL STRATEGY OVER TIME is the way.

Their approach is undulating periodization with progressive overload and full range of motion. Eat the food, stay on course. Minimal to moderate gear.

Dante’s strategy was “blast and cruise”. Eat the food, stay on course. Minimal to moderate gear.

Commonality? Progressive overload, periodization, and food.

Both roads lead to the same destination.

Stop taking advice from over drugged forum dorks who NEVER post photos of how they look, blast all damn year, hide behind pseudonyms, use logical fallacies in their arguments, and point to people with good genetics as their examples.

What would you say, in simple terms, are the best ways to look at periodization over time?

I'd assume x amount of hard training, followed by a recovery period? A simple example, 8 weeks of hard training, followed by a recovery week?

Do you believe volume, intensity, or both should be ramped up over time until a back off week is needed?

I also assume based on your post you may prefer periods where intense low volume is used, then more high volume periods where intensity is less?

I'm a big fan of periodization but I also think it can be bastardized where guys get too cute and obercompate training where it is counterproductive.

 

[N.L....M.....]

What a bunch of small pussies!


View attachment 133391View attachment 133392View attachment 133393

Nobody said they are small pussies. I don’t think anybody said you have to hit failure to grow. You do have to train hard enough to force adaptation.
Who is virtue signaling? Guys are just talking about how they train. The main criticism of rir or rpe is that most people are going think they’re closer to failure than they actually are and I’ve heard Mike say this.
In the video the guy was training like a pussy. He’s supposed to be an expert but gave up when the set got hard and proclaimed failure. That’s a pretty fair criticism.
There has to be a certain amount of effort to stimulate growth.
When I go back through and read the responses I think most everyone agrees. They might disagree because they read something the wrong way or verbage.
Maybe a lot is lost in translation through words on screen but I feel like we read 2 different threads
Would a logical strategy not involve using some effort or intensity?

 

[USMuscle9403]

What a bunch of small pussies!


View attachment 133391View attachment 133392View attachment 133393

Offtopic, but middle dude reminds me of Scott Stevenson @homonunculus

 

[Elvia1023]

Nobody said they are small pussies. I don’t think anybody said you have to hit failure to grow. You do have to train hard enough to force adaptation.
Who is virtue signaling? Guys are just talking about how they train. The main criticism of rir or rpe is that most people are going think they’re closer to failure than they actually are and I’ve heard Mike say this.
In the video the guy was training like a pussy. He’s supposed to be an expert but gave up when the set got hard and proclaimed failure. That’s a pretty fair criticism.
There has to be a certain amount of effort to stimulate growth.
When I go back through and read the responses I think most everyone agrees. They might disagree because they read something the wrong way or verbage.
Maybe a lot is lost in translation through words on screen but I feel like we read 2 different threads
Would a logical strategy not involve using some effort or intensity?

Exactly. I was commenting on Brad's set and we have spoken about his studies in the past and how from the outside they appear not possible and when you see him doing a set himself you realize why they are possible because his own idea of failure is frankly pathetic.

There is merit in many different approaches/methods. I think for optimal gains no one should be hitting complete (or past) failure all the time (if volume and frequency are fairly high). There needs to be periodization and sometimes less is more. You definitely don't need to go crazy every workout to grow and quite frankly training that way consistently without breaks will often go against people. Deloads are needed and RIR is just another term that can be the same thing. Now some people prefer to just have a few days (or 1-2 weeks) break from the gym whilst others deload by using less volume/weight or approaches such as RIR and basically not going crazy for a short time and everything works. Do whatever feels right to you. It's just many overcomplicate the crap out of training. However it all works and we are all different so whatever keeps your body healthy and you progressing go for it.

The term "failure" can also mean different things as well. Throughout the year I may train x body part using numerous approaches. Failure could be when form breaks and you stop. It could be going mental and doing 5-20 partial reps after form has broken. It could be assisted or negative reps and well many different things. Occasionally I may train that bodypart and just getting an amazing pump but not go to complete failure because you are giving your cns and muscles a bit of a break. No one is virtue signalling it's just common fact to me most people's idea of failure is not true failure. You can still grow without going to failure though. People can keep 2 rir and still adhere to progressive overload over time and get stronger in all movements. There is definitely not just one way up the mountain. I have seen some people build incredible physiques without training "hard" or "heavy" but if they want to progress over and over their level of effort always has to go up and training intensely and heavier and going near (or even past) failure should only assist that progression as long as everything else is in place.

 

[M@NU]

for me i have always seen the best gains when i had periods where i couldnt train at all for 7-10days but could still eat somewhat good.
I have to add that i usually train very intense and not low volume. I believe that it could have to do with being in overreaching phase and the layoff works to
repair all tissue.
The issue is.. if i am not forced to such a layoff due to health, work, whatever then i wouldnt do it. I am the type of person who feels bad if he cant go to the gym 1 day a week.
I know this is a problem and holds my progress back but i love working out. The feeling is amazing aftr a heavy workout

 

[nspaletta]

What are the 3 main mechanisms of Hypertrophy? This is what they mean to me in laymans terms.
1. Muscle Tension (Progressive Overload)
2. Muscle Damage (Controlled Failure)
3. Metabolic Stress (The Pump)

Dante, Jordan, Scott, Dusty, and a long list of bodybuilders all program to incorporate all of this. Train with purpose, get stronger, be consistent, and enjoy it. I believe there's plenty different ways to grow but consistency and work ethic will be the main driver.

I believe it was Dante who said if Guy A squats 225 for 10 and in 6 months squats 225 for 10 I'm sure he won't be growing much. But guy B who started at 185 for 10 and in 6 months does 245 for 8 will for certain how grown his legs.

 

[KillerStack]

In the video the guy was training like a pussy. He’s supposed to be an expert but gave up when the set got hard and proclaimed failure. That’s a pretty fair criticism.
There has to be a certain amount of effort to stimulate growth.

Yes exactly. Israetel and Jared have years of hard grinding behind them (not familiar with the third guy), I would guess a gazillion sets approaching failure or reaching true failure (if someone never hits failure on curls or extensions I doubt they have much arm mass, never seen such a bodybuilder). Schoenfeld is just someone who doesn't seem to have much testicular fortitude. He knew he was being filmed, it was supposed to be a "failure set." This guy could never become truly strong and he didn't get strong nor muscular after decades in the gym.

Regarding Israetel, Lyle McDonald recently went on one of his lunatic rants, filming several youtube videos on the subject. Said that Mike's failure sets never drop in speed as the set goes on. The last rep is as fast as the last one so it's not true failure. He has a point. The second thing that pisses Lyle off is that there is a circle jerk of influencers who never call each other out because they are friends. They call everyone else out, who they aren't friends with. He has a point there too. Like Norton, who everyone agrees trains intensely, could have said that yes, Mike often does not approach true failure on his supposed failure sets. Instead it's "Lyle is insane" and "do not engage" LoL.

Sometimes it takes a madman to point out the obvious.

 

[KillerStack]

What are the 3 main mechanisms of Hypertrophy? This is what they mean to me in laymans terms.
1. Muscle Tension (Progressive Overload)
2. Muscle Damage (Controlled Failure)
3. Metabolic Stress (The Pump)

Dante, Jordan, Scott, Dusty, and a long list of bodybuilders all program to incorporate all of this. Train with purpose, get stronger, be consistent, and enjoy it. I believe there's plenty different ways to grow but consistency and work ethic will be the main driver.

I believe it was Dante who said if Guy A squats 225 for 10 and in 6 months squats 225 for 10 I'm sure he won't be growing much. But guy B who started at 185 for 10 and in 6 months does 245 for 8 will for certain how grown his legs.

Then there is the circle around Mike Israetel who seem to feel that volume itself is very important or most important. Correct me if I'm wrong characterizing them like this.

After decades in the gym, my truth is that it's muscle tension and increasing loads that is most important. Increasing volumes have fairly little to do with growth. Some but very little. I might be mistaken but I think Jordan Peters said that he pretty much couldn't get more top end strength (this was before he quit blasting) so he would have to increase the volume done to grow more. I can see that. But now that he quit the drugs he said that he will never reach those past loads again and that Corinne would surpass him soon. Sadness.

 

[tokon]

Agree. I was just hitting on the big 3 we can control. Now, when someone figures out a way to manipulate genetics, they will be filthy rich.

 

[Kaladryn]

What he said would only apply if it were the same guy in both comparisons. A guy does 30 reps of 225 to failure with 225 lbs, and then the next week he does a set of 8 with 495 lbs to failure. The set with 495 would be more intense.

I don't agree, I've squatted 495 back in the day, I used to do 545 for 5-6 reps WAY past parallel into the hole, narrow stance, Platz style, it wasn't that intense even though I felt like I was hitting "failure." 225 for to full, actual, real failure is much more intense. High rep sets of squats are to failure can be life-changing events.

People doing sets of 5 or less aren't working that intensely unless they are pushing way past failure.

BTW, this brings up a good point, failure is a STATE OF MIND, it's not as hard as you can push. You can do more, you can push harder, but you can't just will it to happen, it's a state of mind that you can't 100% control.

 

[juggy38]

What a bunch of small pussies!


View attachment 133391View attachment 133392View attachment 133393

And usually in 2-3 of their 8 week blocks they are training 0-1 RIR so they do train hard.

i am agreeing with your two posts. I’m just saying RIR training doesn’t mean it’s easy. 8 sets of quads with a true 1 repin the tank is a hard damn gym day.

 

[maldorf]

I don't agree, I've squatted 495 back in the day, I used to do 545 for 5-6 reps WAY past parallel into the hole, narrow stance, Platz style, it wasn't that intense even though I felt like I was hitting "failure." 225 for to full, actual, real failure is much more intense. High rep sets of squats are to failure can be life-changing events.

People doing sets of 5 or less aren't working that intensely unless they are pushing way past failure.

BTW, this brings up a good point, failure is a STATE OF MIND, it's not as hard as you can push. You can do more, you can push harder, but you can't just will it to happen, it's a state of mind that you can't 100% control.

IMO, something is truly intense if you are sore and tore the hell up for many many days after the lift. Thats a sign of tissue damage and hence intensity on the body. Sure doing a high rep set may be more challenging in the gym and feel more intense, but a day or two later Im not sore at all and could lift again. Do a really heavy workout with squats and you might not be ready to squat again for 7 days. Just my opinion and experience.

 

[xpoc]

IMO, something is truly intense if you are sore and tore the hell up for many many days after the lift. Thats a sign of tissue damage and hence intensity on the body. Sure doing a high rep set may be more challenging in the gym and feel more intense, but a day or two later Im not sore at all and could lift again. Do a really heavy workout with squats and you might not be ready to squat again for 7 days. Just my opinion and experience.

When I competed in PL, I never got sore after a meet. Although I was pushing 95-100% of my 1RM max....and occasionally failed on a lift (excess of 100%), my muscles never felt it the next day. Now, my nervous system was a different story. I was exhausted following a meet so I always slept great, but never felt sore. Same experience my training partner had. He was a great bench presser. One day he set a PB with 550@220lbs in a meet. Next very day, he went into the gym and hit 405x6 on the incline bench with no issues. In my prime I could 3x bodyweight squat for a single in a meet and be fine. But if I hit a 20 rep widow maker with a fraction of the weight, I would limp around for 2 days afterward. Reps to failure def. cause muscle soreness for me. Single digit sets to failure rarely cause soreness for me. I need to be in the teens to failure before I really feel that deep soreness.

 

[heavyhitter]

Yep. Accessory work was the only thing that ever made me sore when powerlifting. Occasionally on some of the dynamic effort days. But never the max effort days

When I competed in PL, I never got sore after a meet. Although I was pushing 95-100% of my 1RM max....and occasionally failed on a lift (excess of 100%), my muscles never felt it the next day. Now, my nervous system was a different story. I was exhausted following a meet so I always slept great, but never felt sore. Same experience my training partner had. He was a great bench presser. One day he set a PB with 550@220lbs in a meet. Next very day, he went into the gym and hit 405x6 on the incline bench with no issues. In my prime I could 3x bodyweight squat for a single in a meet and be fine. But if I hit a 20 rep widow maker with a fraction of the weight, I would limp around for 2 days afterward. Reps to failure def. cause muscle soreness for me. Single digit sets to failure rarely cause soreness for me. I need to be in the teens to failure before I really feel that deep soreness.