Question about Insulin

[DOHCrazy]

Yes, I did. I have re-read it two or three times. And yes I saw where he said 'or something similar' to the suggested vitargo or karbolyn. And I know that the things I asked about are carbs but I was hoping for a little more guidance. There are several cheaper options and I was looking for a simple yes or no, not some douche response asking if I had read his posts.

Someone could even go a little further by saying 'malto is crap go with the Swedish oats' or 'waxy will work but MG's powdered muscle is much easier to use as it's almost all there, granted it uses isolate and peptopro not just hydrolysate.' But hey thanks for taking the time to help a guy out, DOucHeCrazy.

Lol, now DOucHeCrazy will quote Mike telling you exactly what you need to know, in this same thread.

See bold above: You don't have to use Karbolyn, as it is considerably more expensive than most. There are quite a few other much less expensive brands out there without the same name recognition, but which supply a complex carbohydrate of an equivalent mollecular weight (which is all that really matters). Element is just one of several examples.

 

[Mike Arnold]

that is close to Mutant's protacal. Here is what he wrote.


- -30 min prior to workout: Take 10iu HGH subq

- -15 min prior to workout: Take 6-16iu Novalog subq

- -10 min prior to workout: Drink shake #1

- -After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout

- -Go home

- -Take 100mcg of the IGF-1lr3 (for it's insulin sensitizing effects)

- -Take down shake #3

- -Done..now you are huge
Ok, now what is in the shakes...

Shake 1: 10-20g EAA's (Essential Amino Acids) or PeptoPro, 40-60g Low DE Maltodextrin, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, 200mg Caffeine (or pre-workout powdered mix of choice in place of caffeine)
Thought for research to conclude if the most beneficial amount of carbs would be in the range of 7-10g per iu of insuline used. So at drink #1 with 4iu's being 28-40g of carbs and again with drink #2....keeping extra glucose tabs, sugar or whatever near as a back up should this not be enough.....

Shake 2: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50-100g Dextrose, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate

Shake 3: 2 cups pasteurized egg whites, 1 cup dry oats, 1 banana or 1 cup blueberries (I prefer them to be frozen), splenda or stevia

*There is no need for a supplemented post workout shake because your glycogen will not be depleted, and you will have been ingesting aminos the whole time too. So dense whole food calories with low fat content, are going to be the best option here. So we throw it in a blender and take it down. CPWO!

Now, I would like to advise you cheap-skates, not to go out and buy the cheapest ingredients that you can find. Please pick quality supplements. It does and will make a difference. Spend the extra 2$ and buy some quality shit, or your results may be skewed. Thinks about it this way: Your body is a Lamborghini. Would you fill your tank with low grade octane from Costco? No, of course not, it would run like shit. So use quality supplements, not bulk junk crap, and your results will be that much better!

Supplement idea for those of you who need to be pointed in the right direction:

EAA's: Champion Nutrition makes a good EAA product that has creatine in it, and also one that has caffeine too. It's called Amino Shooter. There are 3 versions. None are a proprietary blend, and they are made with pharmacy grade aminos.

PeptoPro: This can be used in place of the EAA's. It is a high quality peptide/EAA product made from hydrolyzed casein. Different companies buy PeptoPro and flavor it. One brand I have tried that is flavored is MAP by Primordial Performance.

Low DE Maltodextrin: This means Low Dextrose Equivalency. The lower the equivalence, the more complex of a chain it is, and the slower it will break down into a sugar. A couple good ones are Carb Complex by Nutek, and Cytocarb 2 by Cytosport. If corn maltodextrins give you stomach problems, then other water soluble carbohydrates like Karbolyn can work. They just tend to be expensive, and do the same exact thing. Some people that have used this protocol with success, have actually used dextrose in place of the maltodextrin due to stomach problems.

Dextrose: Yes, you can find this anywhere, but I prefer AST's DGC because it also contains vitamins.

Micronized Creatine Monohydrate: Well, the name says it all. Any brand that uses Creapure as the source of their creatine monohydrate, should be just fine. I use Bioplex.

*Do not use cheap starch carbs, like waxy maize, in the shakes. The carbs need to be water soluble and easily digested. By keeping them soluble, they help pull the aminos in.

This protocol is OK, but there are problems with it which will hinder the overall results that could otherwise be achieved.

For one, other drugs, such as GH or IGF-1 will obviously beneficial when added into one's program, but these drugs are seperate from an insulin program and their use is up to the discretion of the individual. Technically, they are not part of an "insulin" program.

The author mentions using IGF-1 as an insulin sensitizer, but in reality, Metformin is far superior for this purpose. If one is seeking an insulin sensitizer, Metformin is the way to go. As long as the individual does not use insulin more frequently than 4-5 times per week, insulin use alone will not significantly affect insulin sensitivity. However, when an individual begins to use insulin on a daily or multi-daily basis, insulin rsistance becomes a reality and insuin sensitizers are highly recommended.

In regards to the carb sources used in the author's program, they are not ideal. For one, Dextrose has ZERO additional benefits when compared to a high mollecular weight carbohydrate like Vitargo or Karbolyn, when used in this instance. High mollecular weight complex carbs do an excellent job of replenishing muscle glycogen, while dextrose does a very poor job in comparison. Additionally, not only is dextrose more slowly digested and assimilated, but it causes water retention in the digestive tract and subsequent distension. High mollecular weight complex carbs have the opposite effect, drawing water out of the digestive tract and into the bloodstream, resulting in zero midsection distension, increased vacularity, and enhanced muscle fullness.

In comparing Maltodextrin to high M-weight carb, high-M weight carbs are once again far superior. Maltodextrin is more slowly digested and asssimilated, is less effective at replenishing muscle glycogen, can result intestinal water retention and distension, demonstrates a comparitively poor ability to help shuttle nutrients from the stomach into circulation (high-m carbs have a pump-like effect, helping to draw water and other nutrients which are combined with it, into the intestines and then into circulation), and is also more likely to increase bodyfat. All in all, Maltodextrin is significantly inferior to high-M weight carbs.

Concerning shake #3 of the author's program, why combine whole foods into a shake format when the goal at this time is rapid absorption and assimilation of nutrients? When a quick infusion of nutrients is no longer desired, why not just have a whole food meal instead? And...if a quick infusion of nutrients is desired, why use foods which will impair this process?

When it comes to using insulin in combination with pre/intra/post workout nutrition, the goal is to deliver needed nutrients as quickly as possible. When this is no longer necessary, then a switch back to whole foods is ideal, but during the pre/intra/post workpout window, we want to hit it hard & fast with the nutrients & compounds which will result in the largest increase in protein synthesis and glycogen replenishment possible. Foods which lead to delayed absorption and assimilation of nutrients during this time period work against this goal.

Also, why were these specific foods chosen to be used in this shake at this particular time? Unprocessed and natural foods are extremely beneficial and should form the core of any BB'rs diet, but when it comes to pre/intra/post workout nutrition, we are trying to accomplish a specific purpose, which is best realized through other means.

Those are few of the things which jumped out at me right away as being less than ideal. The author has the right idea, but the program would be more effective if a few adjustments were made to the types of nutrients selected.

 

[Thick500]

Hey mike, u got an opininion on substituting blended up sweet potatoes (fully cooked ofcourse) for the 1st shake and following it up with vitargo for the 2nd and 3rd shake? Vitargo is f'n expensive and it goes fast with almost 3 servings per workout...

Not nearly as fast as vitargo but surely will have blood glucose levels sufficiently high by the time humalog starts to peak dont you think? Surely the glycemic rise is much faster when they are processed into liquid form right?

 

[wastedyouthcrew]

hey guys just did my first humalog postworkout about 10 min ago,i took 75g carbs i got powercarb from my trusted supp store,i asked for waxxymase and they gave me this,so it was 75g powercard,44g protein,5g creatine monohydrate,i did 5iu since it was my first time and i added some more carbs just to be sure,so thanx for all the advice iv been wanting to gain bodybuilder weight and im taking the PLUNGE haha

 

[Mike Arnold]

Hey mike, u got an opininion on substituting blended up sweet potatoes (fully cooked ofcourse) for the 1st shake and following it up with vitargo for the 2nd and 3rd shake? Vitargo is f'n expensive and it goes fast with almost 3 servings per workout...

Not nearly as fast as vitargo but surely will have blood glucose levels sufficiently high by the time humalog starts to peak dont you think? Surely the glycemic rise is much faster when they are processed into liquid form right?

If you find Vitargo/Karbolyn to be too costly, use a brand with less name recognition, but which supplies the same ingredients. Using blended up sweet potatoes, while no doubt being a healthy food, is not the best carbohydrate for accomplishing the objectives listed in the program.

Something like that would work well at pretty much any other time though, if you don't want to eat whole food.

 

[ARM BAR]

Potassium.

Hey,

Great read , what sort of Potassium.


30 minutes before workout
Inject 15 IU Humalog
60 grams Vitargo, Karbolyn (or similar).
20 grams of Hydrolyzed protein (whey, casein, or beef).
4.5 grams Leucine.
4.5 grams GPLC.
5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.
2 grams Beta alanine.
15 grams Glycerol monostearate
10 grams glutamine.
3 grams Taurine.
2 grams vitamin C.
500 mg Potassium.

Regards

ARM BAR

 

[batman]

The best single time is pre-workout, although you need to adhere to specific diet protocols.

Here is a pre-workout insulin protocol, which will kick your ass. Your not going to fnd a pre-workout protocol, which works better. I have tried dozens of different programs in my clients and none of them work as well.

Of course, keep in mind that there are many different ways to run insulin, but if your limiting it to only at workout times, try the following. 10 lbs in 1-2 weeks is common.

Lastly, I will assume you are thoroughy familiar with Insulin and know what signs to look for in the event of hypoglycemia. I am not going to type out all the warning signs or what to do in the event of a hypoglycemic attack. However, the following program is very unlikely to result in any type of serious hypoglycemic event, even in those with extreme inuslin sensitivity. I am also unaware of your bodyweight or dietary needs, so I will write a program which should be suitable for 1st time nsulin users between 200-250 lbs.



[B]30 minutes before workout
Inject 15 IU Humalog
60 grams Vitargo, Karbolyn (or similar).
20 grams of Hydrolyzed protein (whey, casein, or beef).
4.5 grams Leucine.
4.5 grams GPLC.
5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.
2 grams Beta alanine.
15 grams Glycerol monostearate
10 grams Glutamine.
3 grams Taurine.
2 grams vitamin C.
500 mg Potassium.

60 minutes later
60 grams Vitargo, Karbolyn (or similar).
20 grams Hydrolyzed protein (whey, casein, or beef).
4.5 grams Leucine.
5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.
2 grams Beta alanine.
15 grams Glycerol monostearate.
10 grams Glutamine.
3 grams Taurine.

60 minutes later
60 grams Vitargo, Karbolyn (or similar).
20 grams hydrolyzed protyein (whey, casein, or beef).
[/B]

Note: You should consume a regular meal within 3-4 hours of beginning this protocol. Also, I don't recomnmend doing it if it has been 5 or more hours since you heve last eaten, as your blood suagr will be pretty low when you start....so try to get in your last meal within 3 to no more than 4 hours before beginning the protocol.

Lastly, since you will be drinking your last shake either at the end of your workout or very close to it (unless you workout for many hours), there is no need to eat a whole food meal assoonas the workout is over. You can wait a good hour after consuming your fina shake before eating a post-workout meal, as your body will already be supplied with all the nutrients it needs to grow.

This program will work very well for you. Give it a shot. 15 IU is a good starting dose of insulin for a pre-wrkout protocol. The amount of carbs and protien provided is more than enough to use up 15 IU of Slin, but if it worries you, somply use 10 IU for your 1st time and then go up to 15 the next time. Your pumps will be through the fuckin' roof and you will quickly gain fullness, size and overall bodyweight. Bottom line: You will feel like you are using AAS for your first time all over again and will look much bigger within just 2 weeks. It will work better if you follow this protocol at least 5 times a week. Guys who train only 3 or 4 days a week don't notice quit as good of results because they're only using Slin 3-4 times per week.

Mike, how are you buying these supplements? all separate in powders, and are you measuring these in scoops with some, like protein and karbolyn, I sure those are scoops. but are you weighing some of the other sups or is there something else that has a lot of these combined together. I'm talking about the "4.5 grams Leucine.
5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.
2 grams Beta alanine.
15 grams Glycerol monostearate.
10 grams Glutamine.
3 grams Taurine.[/B]
vitamin c
potassium

 

[DOHCrazy]

Mike, how are you buying these supplements? all separate in powders, and are you measuring these in scoops with some, like protein and karbolyn, I sure those are scoops. but are you weighing some of the other sups or is there something else that has a lot of these combined together. I'm talking about the "4.5 grams Leucine.
5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.
2 grams Beta alanine.
15 grams Glycerol monostearate.
10 grams Glutamine.
3 grams Taurine.[/B]
vitamin c
potassium

Some of you REALLY over complicate this.

Here's a good option:

1. Go to Amazon.com and order a food scale.

**broken link removed**

2. Go to **broken link removed** and order:

Custom Mix
+ FORMULA
Glutamine Peptides by the Pound 35%
Taurine by the Pound 10%
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C) by the Pound 5%
Glycerol Mono Stearate by the Pound 50%
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

(You can use any hydrolyzed protein here, as Mike said.)

Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

Beta-Alanine Powder

AND

L-Leucine (Instantized) by the Pound

AND

GPLC Glycine Propionyl L-Carnitine Powder


3. Go to your favorite supplement shop (online or local,) and buy Karbolyn or Vitargo. You'll also need to pick up some Potassium.

4. Set your shaker on top of your fancy new food scale. Add ingredients by the weights Mike listed. Don't micro manage, just get as close as your food scale allows you.

Easy, huh?

 

[gsxr102705]

I been doing pre humalog at 6-8 ius 30min before workout. pre workout shake of 60g Rilose(rice sugar best choice by far) 20g peptopro 20g hydrolized 520, 5 g creatine, 5g Leucine Peptides. right before Training.

WO

pwo shot grf/ghrp,
humulinR 8ius

30min later
pwo shake 60g rilose, 40g peptopro/520

hr later solid foods 60carbs/40pro/20 fats

I like to stick with dats reasons on not going over 6-8ius with combo of gh.

by far i noticed endurance is amazing, i notice i dont rest much at all between sets, im ready for another heavy set back to back. im likeing the humR pwo because i have time to get some solid food in while insulin is flowing.

 

[shmobol]

Some of you REALLY over complicate this.

Here's a good option:

1. Go to Amazon.com and order a food scale.

**broken link removed**

2. Go to **broken link removed** and order:

Custom Mix
+ FORMULA
Glutamine Peptides by the Pound 35%
Taurine by the Pound 10%
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C) by the Pound 5%
Glycerol Mono Stearate by the Pound 50%
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

(You can use any hydrolyzed protein here, as Mike said.)

Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

Beta-Alanine Powder

AND

L-Leucine (Instantized) by the Pound

AND

GPLC Glycine Propionyl L-Carnitine Powder


3. Go to your favorite supplement shop (online or local,) and buy Karbolyn or Vitargo. You'll also need to pick up some Potassium.

4. Set your shaker on top of your fancy new food scale. Add ingredients by the weights Mike listed. Don't micro manage, just get as close as your food scale allows you.

Easy, huh?

Thanks Man, that's a helpful post.

I think we make it more difficult because Insulin is literally the most dangerous compound we use. Mess up once and it can be all bad. We just want to make sure all our ducks are in a row before we jump in.

 

[DOHCrazy]

Thanks Man, that's a helpful post.

I think we make it more difficult because Insulin is literally the most dangerous compound we use. Mess up once and it can be all bad. We just want to make sure all our ducks are in a row before we jump in.

A helpful post? A few posts ago you were complaining I was DOucHeCrazy. All I did here was use my brain, take EXACTLY what Mike posted, and make a step by step plan of action.

I'm baffled.

-DOucHeCrazy

 

[osiris]

Some of you REALLY over complicate this.

Here's a good option:

1. Go to Amazon.com and order a food scale.

**broken link removed**

2. Go to **broken link removed** and order:

Custom Mix
+ FORMULA
Glutamine Peptides by the Pound 35%
Taurine by the Pound 10%
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C) by the Pound 5%
Glycerol Mono Stearate by the Pound 50%
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

(You can use any hydrolyzed protein here, as Mike said.)

Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade
+ Premium Forbidden Fruit Punch - FREE.75/lb
+ **PREMIUM FLAVOR** (Pre-sweetened) - FREE/lb
+ **Plain** - FREE/lb
+ FREE Food Grade Bag - FREE/lb

AND

Beta-Alanine Powder

AND

L-Leucine (Instantized) by the Pound

AND

GPLC Glycine Propionyl L-Carnitine Powder


3. Go to your favorite supplement shop (online or local,) and buy Karbolyn or Vitargo. You'll also need to pick up some Potassium.

4. Set your shaker on top of your fancy new food scale. Add ingredients by the weights Mike listed. Don't micro manage, just get as close as your food scale allows you.

Easy, huh?

Man that shit is too much work.

Go to bb'ing.com and order karbolyn, evogen cellkem, and evogen evp. Anyone that looks at these products will see they are MADE to be used with insulin. Did i mention that evogen is Hany Rambod's company/......HMMMM=-)

I love true protein but you could just as easily email them and ask you to make that mix instead of weight shit out. Thats just like a lot of work imo

 

[DOHCrazy]

Man that shit is too much work.

Go to bb'ing.com and order karbolyn, evogen cellkem, and evogen evp. Anyone that looks at these products will see they are MADE to be used with insulin. Did i mention that evogen is Hany Rambod's company/......HMMMM=-)

I love true protein but you could just as easily email them and ask you to make that mix instead of weight shit out. Thats just like a lot of work imo

A minute or two isn't very much work, for me.

I assume TP won't custom mix all this because of the way different powders mix. I also wanted the protein separate from the glycerol, so I could adjust as needed.

In the end, either of our methods are probably fine; I was just writing up a step by step for these people who are making this so complicated their brains are going to explode.

 

[osiris]

A minute or two isn't very much work, for me.

I assume TP won't custom mix all this because of the way different powders mix. I also wanted the protein separate from the glycerol, so I could adjust as needed.

In the end, either of our methods are probably fine; I was just writing up a step by step for these people who are making this so complicated their brains are going to explode.

Lmao, i wasnt busting your balls or anything man. I am just all about easy peezy lemon squeezy.

I will say the evogen line is truly (along with karbolyn) one of the few supplements i consider a must have!

 

[Dangkolo]

Lmao, i wasnt busting your balls or anything man. I am just all about easy peezy lemon squeezy.

I will say the evogen line is truly (along with karbolyn) one of the few supplements i consider a must have!

:yeahthat:n

 

[Mike Arnold]

Any of the above options are probably fine for getting all the ingredients together in one shake. Like another poster said, most of these ingredients don't have to be measured out to the 1/10 of a gram...just get them pretty close.

When it comes to safety, the only thing that really matters is making sure you get enough carbs/protein for each IU of slin. None of the other stuff is safety related.

There are some combination products out there which supply several of these ingredients and are pretty good. If they meet your needs, use them. Sometimes these proructs save you money, sometimes they end up costing more, but deliver convenience.

Personally, I prefer to purchase each ingredient seperately...as not only can I be assured that I am getting exactly what I paid for (I often don't have faith that a company supplies exactly what is listed on the bottle in the qauntities stated), but I can measure out exactly what I want for my needs, which vary depending on circumstances.

There are plenty of solid companies out there that sell all these ingredients in bulk for a great price.

 

[ManoftheWorld]

For whats its worth for guys wanting/looking to use humulin R and concerned with timing issues etc.. Yesterday was my first dose (ever,btw. popped my slin cherry) following mikes protocol and went straight for the 15ius. I unintentionally hit my shake intervals at about the 2 hour marks for second/thrid shake and had no issues....

I originally was looking to hit my shakes around the 90 min mark give or take depending on if started drifting toward hypo. I got a lil behind at both the gym and later when running errands and by the time I noticed the time I was already at the 2hr marks both times but again with no problems. I did have a can of mountain dew on standby just in case but for all intensive purposes I only used it to quench my thirst on the drive home from gym because my water bottle was bone dry.. prior to doing the dew, I had no signs of going hypo LOL.

 

[onynx4]

i hav a question tho. im doing 4iu slin pwo with karblyn and hyperbolic and scoop of diamond whey. 62g of carbs and 25 gram of protein. i feel harder fuller and leaner. I feel as tho im getting depleted in some way. Like im missing something? Any help?

 

[Chode Logan]

I tried the mutant protocol (which I know Mike stated isn't the same, but the general concept is the same) for 4 weeks, 3 injects a week as I couldn't stomach the shakes on leg day. I just wanted to see how I respond to insulin and keep it on the shelf for later.


I put on 11 lbs in 4 weeks while on an otherwise cutting diet and doing cardio. No fat gain. I also looked 30 lbs bigger in the gym with the insane fucking pumps haha

 

[Dutch Buster]

Do you use this protocol with other as and hgh ?

or works it without ?