Short Cycles: Cycle For Pennies/SHIC

[Oldwhitedude]

Just looking to get some discussion going here.

Dante Trudel is very well respected across all sectors of enhanced bodybuilding, and rightfully so. If anything over time his credibility has only increased. People still train in Doggcrapp approved methods and his supplementation advice is superb.

However what gets discussed and implemented a lot less these days is shorter duration cycles, in particular 4 weeks blast followed by 2-3 weeks cruise which he promoted in his original Cycle For Pennies:

"The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time)for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)"

There were some threads from way back when on this forum, as far back as 2006 which look at shorter cycles but very little in the last 2 decades: https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/short-cycles.21250/

Now admittedly I'm a little out of touch, but I don't see anyone discussing this anymore. Now whether people do cycle like this and don't talk about it, what changed? Are people still using short cycles or do people prefer longer ones? Obviously the human body hasn't changed much in 20 years and Dante was clearly putting a lot of muscle on people back in the day with approach. What is the current consensus. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 226465]

My favourite blast and cruise method is the one where you never get round to the cruise bit

 

[Blueballs]

Just looking to get some discussion going here.

Dante Trudel is very well respected across all sectors of enhanced bodybuilding, and rightfully so. If anything over time his credibility has only increased. People still train in Doggcrapp approved methods and his supplementation advice is superb.

However what gets discussed and implemented a lot less these days is shorter duration cycles, in particular 4 weeks blast followed by 2-3 weeks cruise which he promoted in his original Cycle For Pennies:

"The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time)for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)"

There were some threads from way back when on this forum, as far back as 2006 which look at shorter cycles but very little in the last 2 decades: https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/short-cycles.21250/

Now admittedly I'm a little out of touch, but I don't see anyone discussing this anymore. Now whether people do cycle like this and don't talk about it, what changed? Are people still using short cycles or do people prefer longer ones? Obviously the human body hasn't changed much in 20 years and Dante was clearly putting a lot of muscle on people back in the day with approach. What is the current consensus. Thanks.

You’re an old git like me so you no doubt remember Paul Borreson advocating high dose, short duration cycles with short off periods. Ian Harrison used to speak openly about this protocol as well.
A typical cycle was:
1g test and 1g deca for 4 weeks.
100mg prop and 100mg winstrol for 3 weeks.
Hcg, clomid, nolva for 3 weeks.
Repeat.

 

[Cerberus777]

That's old and not really used. It would take more than 2-3 weeks to clear the hormones. This idea was to keep fertility with the knowledge that was available when writen. Now health conscious people blast and cruise on a schedule or blast till blood test and other test say it's a good idea.

 

[luki7788]

I don't see the point in something like this - all you do is up and down hormone levels in your blood, so more side effects.

after all, how many muscles can you build in 4 weeks...

 

[Reno911]

You’re an old git like me so you no doubt remember Paul Borreson advocating high dose, short duration cycles with short off periods. Ian Harrison used to speak openly about this protocol as well.
A typical cycle was:
1g test and 1g deca for 4 weeks.
100mg prop and 100mg winstrol for 3 weeks.
Hcg, clomid, nolva for 3 weeks.
Repeat.

Not sure the winny did any favors for Ian.

"I was having multiple heart attacks for the past three weeks" - Ian Harrison

"I was having multiple heart attacks for the past three weeks" - Ian Harrison. Champion bodybuilder and PCA USA Director, Ian Harrison...

www.evolutionofbodybuilding.net

 

[jaxino]

Just looking to get some discussion going here.

Dante Trudel is very well respected across all sectors of enhanced bodybuilding, and rightfully so. If anything over time his credibility has only increased. People still train in Doggcrapp approved methods and his supplementation advice is superb.

However what gets discussed and implemented a lot less these days is shorter duration cycles, in particular 4 weeks blast followed by 2-3 weeks cruise which he promoted in his original Cycle For Pennies:

"The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time)for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)"

There were some threads from way back when on this forum, as far back as 2006 which look at shorter cycles but very little in the last 2 decades: https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/short-cycles.21250/

Now admittedly I'm a little out of touch, but I don't see anyone discussing this anymore. Now whether people do cycle like this and don't talk about it, what changed? Are people still using short cycles or do people prefer longer ones? Obviously the human body hasn't changed much in 20 years and Dante was clearly putting a lot of muscle on people back in the day with approach. What is the current consensus. Thanks.

"The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day"

This is the right answer.

P.S. He missed "as much HGH as you can afford".

 

[Blueballs]

I don't see the point in something like this - all you do is up and down hormone levels in your blood, so more side effects.

after all, how many muscles can you build in 4 weeks...

It’s a load of bollox. Running a third of the dose for three times as long would be more effective

 

[Blueballs]

"The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day"

This is the right answer.

P.S. He missed "as much HGH as you can afford".

He also forgot to mention to run the ass for at least 12 weeks

 

[Gunsmith]

My idea for a cycle for cheap would be test at a gram a week upping it to 1500/after 7-8 weeks combined with enough anti estrogen in check and pre workout Novolin-R.
I think that’s about as cheap and simple as it gets

i also think that high dose short cycles would have you on a hormonal roller coaster from hell

 

[luki7788]

My idea for a cycle for cheap would be test at a gram a week upping it to 1500/after 7-8 weeks combined with enough anti estrogen in check and pre workout Novolin-R.
I think that’s about as cheap and simple as it gets

i also think that high dose short cycles would have you on a hormonal roller coaster from hell

You right but the truth is that on just testosterone + insulin and GH you can be very big and strong but you will never look like a real bodybuilder - for that you need other hormones

 

[b-boy]

LOL @DOGGCRAPP helped create a shit ton of monsters in gyms around the world and although nothing groundbreakingly new has happened in bodybuilding in the past 30 years you fuckers wanna act like what he did back then still doesn't work....LOL
Anabolic using meatheads are some funny ass people

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Kind of taken all out of context but the gist of it up above (circa 1999-2001) was in regard to a bunch of guys on a board using 6000mg plus of everything and still wondering about some exotic compound from bulgaria that they were not using.

I have never recommended to anyone I ever trained to ever use 2 grams of test (In fact ill say this...if any of you ever find a guy i told to do 2 grams of test personally Ill pay you 100k...I can say that because I never did it.) In fact virtually every single bber i ever trained it was test in the 600-1000mg range when blasting. The one guy I can remember that refused to go down to that was a guy (now dead) from this board, who was trained by another trainer (very well known) and that trainer had him doing 2000-2500mg of test a week forever. I absolutely balked at that and said no way in hell that would be continued. He balked at my reduction of that. We argued about this until he relented and came down to 1500mg which i accepted. That was the one exception I can remember to that 600-1000 rule i liked to stay in for blasts. I myself stayed in the 600-1000mg test range (mostly 750mg) when I was sauced so why would I ever recommend others personally to do more? The statement up above was kind of a play on words like "you are using 6 grams of different compounds and still think your missing some exotic compound that is the key to you finally getting to pro size and stature!?" So I simplified the whole thing that 'hey if you are going to abuse yourself with 6 grams anyway, you might as well just go with tried and true and make it really basic and simple."

As far as the short cycles, a lot of you guys arent realizing the whole training part was part of this. Push insanely hard for 4-6 weeks with progressive weights, and then take a short downtime to regather yourself to make another push, repeat, repeat, repeat. So i would have guys push for 4-6 weeks all out both in "blasting"(training and sauce), and then take 7-14 days to regather themselves with the only PCT stuff available at the time (hcg/clomid) with new exercises added to replace old ones and much lighter weight used during that "cruise" period <--- and then they would go all out into blasting (big training weight push, and back up in dosage) again. The doses i used with guys, seems most of you guys would laugh at now...it is what it is. Would I do things slightly differently today than 25 years ago, yea I would because i feel strongly about some things as new information came along...but there is no freaking doubt the methodology worked back then either because guys were gaining muscle mass at a rate that was pretty unheard of.

 

[pickapeck]

To me, the run is just getting going by week 8. I remember doing short cycles many years ago where it was something like 4 weeks on 3 weeks off and it was basically like riding a yoyo. Now with a 3 week bridge?? not really sure. Best I did was 8 weeks on 3 week bridge 8 weeks on..3 week bridge 8 weeks on. It was eat like king leg 1, clean up diet and high high protein leg 2 and cut leg 3. Worked well. That's also when my balls stopped bouncing back into the 500-600 ng/dL range with 3 months off. go figure.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Kind of taken all out of context but the gist of it up above (circa 1999-2001) was in regard to a bunch of guys on a board using 6000mg plus of everything and still wondering about some exotic compound from bulgaria that they were not using.

I have never recommended to anyone I ever trained to ever use 2 grams of test (In fact ill say this...if any of you ever find a guy i told to do 2 grams of test personally Ill pay you 100k...I can say that because I never did it.) In fact virtually every single bber i ever trained it was test in the 600-1000mg range when blasting. The one guy I can remember that refused to go down to that was a guy (now dead) from this board, who was trained by another trainer (very well known) and that trainer had him doing 2000-2500mg of test a week forever. I absolutely balked at that and said no way in hell that would be continued. He balked at my reduction of that. We argued about this until he relented and came down to 1500mg which i accepted. That was the one exception I can remember to that 600-1000 rule i liked to stay in for blasts. I myself stayed in the 600-1000mg test range (mostly 750mg) when I was sauced so why would I ever recommend others personally to do more? The statement up above was kind of a play on words like "you are using 6 grams of different compounds and still think your missing some exotic compound that is the key to you finally getting to pro size and stature!?" So I simplified the whole thing that 'hey if you are going to abuse yourself with 6 grams anyway, you might as well just go with tried and true and make it really basic and simple."

As far as the short cycles, a lot of you guys arent realizing the whole training part was part of this. Push insanely hard for 4-6 weeks with progressive weights, and then take a short downtime to regather yourself to make another push, repeat, repeat, repeat. So i would have guys push for 4-6 weeks all out both in "blasting"(training and sauce), and then take 7-14 days to regather themselves with the only PCT stuff available at the time (hcg/clomid) with new exercises added to replace old ones and much lighter weight used during that "cruise" period <--- and then they would go all out into blasting (big training weight push, and back up in dosage) again. The doses i used with guys, seems most of you guys would laugh at now...it is what it is. Would I do things slightly differently today than 25 years ago, yea I would because i feel strongly about some things as new information came along...but there is no freaking doubt the methodology worked back then either because guys were gaining muscle mass at a rate that was pretty unheard of.

Also not shown was a some of the cruises were done with just low dose test and hcg (it was an individualistic choice)....but the emphasis was on the training. I built everything around the training push. You cannot do some of those widowmakers and all out pushes trainingwise I had guys doing 7/24/365 its impossible.....you had to program it. Training first (the sauce got wrapped around that emphasis on training/eating/push)

 

[pickapeck]

LOL @DOGGCRAPP helped create a shit ton of monsters in gyms around the world and although nothing groundbreakingly new has happened in bodybuilding in the past 30 years you fuckers wanna act like what he did back then still doesn't work....LOL
Anabolic using meatheads are some funny ass people

Look at guys like Dusty that have nothing but praise and good things to say and you nhave your answer.

 

[Gunsmith]

Also not shown was a some of the cruises were done with just low dose test and hcg (it was an individualistic choice)....but the emphasis was on the training. I built everything around the training push. You cannot do some of those widowmakers and all out pushes trainingwise I had guys doing 7/24/365 its impossible.....you had to program it. Training first (the sauce got wrapped around that emphasis on training/eating/push)

If a guy is running 1000mg for say 6 weeks then takes 14 days off down to day 150mg a week , how much do you think his levels will come down in 2 weeks , say 50% , 75%??
I would think that unless you were running short ester like Prop , Suspension or base that you probably really wouldn't feel a huge difference in 2 weeks.
Also , do you program these short breaks with something like a deload in training just to give the CNS a break while the dose.is reduced as well.??

 

[bbxtreme]

@DOGGCRAPP spoke for himself on this one. But he brought up a good point that I have discussed with many in DM’s as there is so much focus on gear here and the “magical cycle”.

What far too many guys forget is that serious guys train their ass off and don’t miss a meal no matter what the gear dosage is- 5g or 2g.

Does gear dosage play a role? You bet your ass it does. But food, diet, training and recovery make a bodybuilder. Just because you drop your dosages doesn’t mean you drop your training, diet and recovery. Comes down to discipline.

There are no “off days” and “cruises” in this sport for those who are serious.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Kind of taken all out of context but the gist of it up above (circa 1999-2001) was in regard to a bunch of guys on a board using 6000mg plus of everything and still wondering about some exotic compound from bulgaria that they were not using.

I have never recommended to anyone I ever trained to ever use 2 grams of test (In fact ill say this...if any of you ever find a guy i told to do 2 grams of test personally Ill pay you 100k...I can say that because I never did it.) In fact virtually every single bber i ever trained it was test in the 600-1000mg range when blasting. The one guy I can remember that refused to go down to that was a guy (now dead) from this board, who was trained by another trainer (very well known) and that trainer had him doing 2000-2500mg of test a week forever. I absolutely balked at that and said no way in hell that would be continued. He balked at my reduction of that. We argued about this until he relented and came down to 1500mg which i accepted. That was the one exception I can remember to that 600-1000 rule i liked to stay in for blasts. I myself stayed in the 600-1000mg test range (mostly 750mg) when I was sauced so why would I ever recommend others personally to do more? The statement up above was kind of a play on words like "you are using 6 grams of different compounds and still think your missing some exotic compound that is the key to you finally getting to pro size and stature!?" So I simplified the whole thing that 'hey if you are going to abuse yourself with 6 grams anyway, you might as well just go with tried and true and make it really basic and simple."

As far as the short cycles, a lot of you guys arent realizing the whole training part was part of this. Push insanely hard for 4-6 weeks with progressive weights, and then take a short downtime to regather yourself to make another push, repeat, repeat, repeat. So i would have guys push for 4-6 weeks all out both in "blasting"(training and sauce), and then take 7-14 days to regather themselves with the only PCT stuff available at the time (hcg/clomid) with new exercises added to replace old ones and much lighter weight used during that "cruise" period <--- and then they would go all out into blasting (big training weight push, and back up in dosage) again. The doses i used with guys, seems most of you guys would laugh at now...it is what it is. Would I do things slightly differently today than 25 years ago, yea I would because i feel strongly about some things as new information came along...but there is no freaking doubt the methodology worked back then either because guys were gaining muscle mass at a rate that was pretty unheard of.

Absolutely honoured to get a reply from you Dante. I don't care if I sound like a schoolgirl, I'm a big fan of yours and have been for many years.

The short cycles is mostly what I was interested in discussing, the conversation did get sidetracked a bit by the doses etc but that was not my concern. So getting it back on track I did also see your recommendation to match the training with the hormones to give the body a rest, and I think you may have even encouraged some complete time off the gym for the few days prior to restarting. That was really my main interest, not the dosages.

I'm happy with your answer, like @b-boy said that approach worked decades ago and there's no reason why it would have stopped working now (to me 2003 is like yesterday anyway lol) so I've just found it interesting that we got such different responses in that same thread 20 years ago.

You mentioned you might do somethings differently, could you elabourate please?

You’re an old git like me so you no doubt remember Paul Borreson advocating high dose, short duration cycles with short off periods. Ian Harrison used to speak openly about this protocol as well.
A typical cycle was:
1g test and 1g deca for 4 weeks.
100mg prop and 100mg winstrol for 3 weeks.
Hcg, clomid, nolva for 3 weeks.
Repeat.

I do remember, as well as Rea and there used to be a lot of talks about SHIC cycles back in the day. Not something I ever did but tbh when something is presented as very different to what the crowds are doing and you get people like Borresen and Trudel promoting them it does make you listen.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

If a guy is running 1000mg for say 6 weeks then takes 14 days off down to day 150mg a week , how much do you think his levels will come down in 2 weeks , say 50% , 75%??
I would think that unless you were running short ester like Prop , Suspension or base that you probably really wouldn't feel a huge difference in 2 weeks.
Also , do you program these short breaks with something like a deload in training just to give the CNS a break while the dose.is reduced as well.??

Yes the whole thing was designed around the training...a cruise is to get your joints in check, new exercises to be toyed with, and to reset yourself to make the push again....that was the whole design of it