Something is not adding up? (estrogen related)

[Arcus]

Ok, so a little background may be necessary when explaining my dilemma.

I went "on" last September at 300mg and around December I started to develop a couple of pimples on my chest, and I chalked this up to high estrogen since nothing else in my regimen had changed (except test at 500 at this point), and I had gotten a blood test to confirm that indeed my estrogen level was high, which is the only way they explained it to me.

So once I knew I had estrogen levels slowly creeping, I started taking Aromasin at 25mg every day, then bumped it down to 12.5mg and stayed on that dose ED since.

Well, my acne never settled down, the acne kept getting progressively worse, and now I just got another blood test, and my estrogen level is "high" again. I told them to mail me the results: 201 total estrogen serum, and the reference range was <130 On a side note, everything else was good. Getting a liver catscan next week because I take my health seriously.

Can someone help me identify the problem here?

 

[Mota]

Trust your aromasin source?

 

[Arcus]

I'm not here to bash any company. But it is from one of the sponsors here, and that's why I felt confident when taking it that it was performing its job.

 

[Mota]

Being a sponsor on this board certainly doesn't mean they are legit at all. I don't think anywhere on here it says that the screen them, or even remove them even if all the feedback is their products are fake. There are banners up right now I would NOT buy from, based on what I've read I believe they are crooked. There are some sponsors I would buy from but you have to look at the feedback they get and make up your own mind who your willing to take a risk on...

I'm thinking your Aromasin is bunk.

 

[Avz]

There's been a few discussions about this lately.. I just recently had to switch to letro from aromasin.. The aromasin just stopped working I guess.. .5 letro took care of my estrogen problems.
Some suggest taking aromasin with a high fat meal for better absorption.. My acne got real bad too.. Then my right nipple got sensitive.. All while I was on aromasin.. Taking care of acne w/ accutane.

 

[hellraiser27]

Not again

You need Nolva plain and simple.

Try that before you get a catscan.

In fact, if I was this worried about it then I would get off the Test 500 first.

I don't understand the wave of people complaining about the most obvious issues and getting blood work and catscan and gyno surgery but unwilling to face the real issue of getiing sides from using steroids.

Steroids is your problem. If you can't deal with acne then get off steroids.
Your body cannot be a perfect laboratory just because you think your using the right doses of everything.

Step away from the steroids and your acne will go away.

 

[Emery]

You need Nolva plain and simple.

Try that before you get a catscan.

In fact, if I was this worried about it then I would get off the Test 500 first.

I don't understand the wave of people complaining about the most obvious issues and getting blood work and catscan and gyno surgery but unwilling to face the real issue of getiing sides from using steroids.

Steroids is your problem. If you can't deal with acne then get off steroids.
Your body cannot be a perfect laboratory just because you think your using the right doses of everything.

Step away from the steroids and your acne will go away.

Damn good post!!! The problem is... people want to hear what else they can take to get rid of sides from taking a med that causes sides! Some meds cause headaches and some cause diarrhea. Test causes acne among many other side effects. The solution is so simple but so hard for people to grasp.

 

[jrod]

All being true in the last two post most sides can be kept in check with other meds as long as they are legit

 

[Kaladryn]

Unfortunately 200 estradiol is right about what I would expect for 500mg/week and no AI.

 

[Arcus]

You need Nolva plain and simple.

Try that before you get a catscan.

In fact, if I was this worried about it then I would get off the Test 500 first.

I don't understand the wave of people complaining about the most obvious issues and getting blood work and catscan and gyno surgery but unwilling to face the real issue of getiing sides from using steroids.

Steroids is your problem. If you can't deal with acne then get off steroids.
Your body cannot be a perfect laboratory just because you think your using the right doses of everything.

Step away from the steroids and your acne will go away.

Please tell me, what is Nolvadex going to do for acne?

Secondly, everyone KNOWS that steroids are the underlying cause for side effects. But why do you think ancillary drugs are so popular? Don't you think we would want to mitigate sides such as acne, shrunken balls, and hair thinning by using an AI, hcg, and a DHT blocker, rather than suffering from the sides?

I don't understand the wave of people complaining about the most obvious issues and getting blood work

Regardless of whether one is getting sides or not while "on", having bloodwork done to check hemocrit, liver values, kidney function, cholesterol, etc. are all important. Don't you think that should be the real indicator whether you're going to continue your use or not, rather than a few acne spots?

Lastly, I'll say that I meant an ultrasound for the liver, not a catscan. Why? Look at BaldNazi's thread.. or HELLA SWOLE's..

 

[Boxer66]

I can see taking an estrogen blocker, but Accutane on top of that? Someone mentioned taking Accutane, and that pill is 50 times more plagued with side effects. You're better off eating A-50 like Life Savers instead. Yes, a bit of an exaggerations, but Accutane has so many damn side effects, I wouldn't even touch the pills. It says that pregnant women should not even touch Accutane for the possibility that they can harm an unborn fetus. If I were you, I'd deal with a little acne. That's the price you have to decide on. Taking a bunch of other stuff to block side effects is not a good option in my opinion. Estrogen blockers, yes...........Acne and pills to counter hair loss, not a good idea at all for many reasons.

 

[hellraiser27]

whers the logic

Please tell me, what is Nolvadex going to do for acne?

Secondly, everyone KNOWS that steroids are the underlying cause for side effects. But why do you think ancillary drugs are so popular? Don't you think we would want to mitigate sides such as acne, shrunken balls, and hair thinning by using an AI, hcg, and a DHT blocker, rather than suffering from the sides?



Regardless of whether one is getting sides or not while "on", having bloodwork done to check hemocrit, liver values, kidney function, cholesterol, etc. are all important. Don't you think that should be the real indicator whether you're going to continue your use or not, rather than a few acne spots?

Lastly, I'll say that I meant an ultrasound for the liver, not a catscan. Why? Look at BaldNazi's thread.. or HELLA SWOLE's..

First off
Nolva will drop estrogen levels immediately. Thats what it does. Have you never heard of it? I have never in my life done a cycle without having Nolva to help out from time to time.
What does Nolva have to do with acne? Nothing. It has nothing to do with it.
Acne is a common side affect of steroid use and maybe not necessarily anything to do with high estrogen. Maybe maybe not

if I got a blood test and it showed high estrogen thenI would use nolva right away before I did anything else

Then, if I was still so worried I would get off the steroids!

Why on Gods green earth would I go get a ultrasound first. So that they can tell you that something is wrong, when you already know the reason is because you are on steroids!
I don't need a breathlizer to tell me Im drunk!
Your estrogen is high because you are on steroids! That is you problem. Try nolva first. If that doesn't work, then get off the steroids.

Use common sense here

 

[h8tr3d]

I can see taking an estrogen blocker, but Accutane on top of that? Someone mentioned taking Accutane, and that pill is 50 times more plagued with side effects. You're better off eating A-50 like Life Savers instead. Yes, a bit of an exaggerations, but Accutane has so many damn side effects, I wouldn't even touch the pills. It says that pregnant women should not even touch Accutane for the possibility that they can harm an unborn fetus. If I were you, I'd deal with a little acne. That's the price you have to decide on. Taking a bunch of other stuff to block side effects is not a good option in my opinion. Estrogen blockers, yes...........Acne and pills to counter hair loss, not a good idea at all for many reasons.

im using accutane, and my sides are dry lips. Im sure thats not the only side, but its the only side i see. Deal with the acne, or treat it and deal with accutane sides, or dont cycle. Pretty simple

 

[jrod]

Yeah accutane is some bad shit at least for me it was i got some of the worst sides when i was a teenager my hair was falling out bad which less than 2% of people have as a side but it worked i had cystic acne bad on my back and i havent had a problem since and i was only on it for three months 10 years ago i can run dbol test along with other gear and no problems

 

[Arcus]

First off
Nolva will drop estrogen levels immediately. Thats what it does. Have you never heard of it? I have never in my life done a cycle without having Nolva to help out from time to time.
What does Nolva have to do with acne? Nothing. It has nothing to do with it.
Acne is a common side affect of steroid use and maybe not necessarily anything to do with high estrogen. Maybe maybe not

if I got a blood test and it showed high estrogen thenI would use nolva right away before I did anything else

Then, if I was still so worried I would get off the steroids!

Why on Gods green earth would I go get a ultrasound first. So that they can tell you that something is wrong, when you already know the reason is because you are on steroids!
I don't need a breathlizer to tell me Im drunk!
Your estrogen is high because you are on steroids! That is you problem. Try nolva first. If that doesn't work, then get off the steroids.

Use common sense here

Nolvadex (a SERM) only blocks estrogen at receptor sites, not lower it; Aromatase inhibitors (A-dex, Aromasin, Letro) prevent the formation of estrogen circulating in the body. That's the "logic" you have trouble understanding.

Maybe pulling up a thread from THIS board will help you understand that.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f.../31006-will-nolvadex-reduce-all-estrogen.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...m/56505-does-clomid-lower-total-estrogen.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/25976-nolvadex.html

Also, quit tying in the Ultrasound test with the high estrogen levels; they're unrelated.

 

[Arcus]

im using accutane, and my sides are dry lips. Im sure thats not the only side, but its the only side i see. Deal with the acne, or treat it and deal with accutane sides, or dont cycle. Pretty simple

I'm running a low dose of 'tane now and two weeks my acne has come to a halt, almost - 30mg a day, slightly dry lips, but that's what chapstick is for.

I didn't state this in my original post, because that wasn't the idea behind it. The point I was trying to understand was why my total estrogen serum level is 201 when I was supposedly running 12.5mg of Aromasin everyday for three months. But I think the reason is clear now - either it was bunk, or it just didn't work from the getgo for me. I will stick with capsule form from now on.

 

[hellraiser27]

Nolvadex (a SERM) only blocks estrogen at receptor sites, not lower it; Aromatase inhibitors (A-dex, Aromasin, Letro) prevent the formation of estrogen circulating in the body. That's the "logic" you have trouble understanding.

Maybe pulling up a thread from THIS board will help you understand that.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f.../31006-will-nolvadex-reduce-all-estrogen.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...m/56505-does-clomid-lower-total-estrogen.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/25976-nolvadex.html

Also, quit tying in the Ultrasound test with the high estrogen levels; they're unrelated.

Do you really think I already don't know this. I didn't think I needed to explain it in detail.

Your right bro.

Fuck everything I have said.

I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Sorry to have bothered you.

 

[warrior504th]

Do you really think I already don't know this. I didn't think I needed to explain it in detail.

Your right bro.

Fuck everything I have said.

I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Sorry to have bothered you.

He is right on the details man it won't bring estrogen under control but you're right that nolva will most quickly get the gyno in check.

Sent from my HTC Inspire

 

[terryd5150]

Umm, no....

First off
Nolva will drop estrogen levels immediately. Thats what it does....

Nolvadex/SERM's won't lower estrogen levels, if anything it will raise them slightly.

Nolvadex is, itself, a weak estrogen and acts as an anti-estrogen by binding to estogen receptors thereby preventing circulating estrogen from binding to the receptors.

Also, Nolvadex exerts its influence primarily in breat tissue, so its estrogen receptor binding effects will will tend to be localized to that area and won't be very pronounced systemically.

AI's, on the other hand, will lower estrogen.

Nolvadex is not in this class of drugs, though. Nolvadex is best used to treat estrogen-related gyno (I.E. NOT gyno related to Deca or Tren), not to counteract high-estrogen symptoms throughout the whole body.

 

[Kaladryn]

Nolvadex/SERM's won't lower estrogen levels, if anything it will raise them slightly.

He obviously knows this, he is saying it drop the EFFECT of estrogen in the body immediately, which is true. And no, the "selective" receptor effect is not limited to breast tissue.

Nolvadex is, itself, a weak estrogen and acts as an anti-estrogen by binding to estogen receptors thereby preventing circulating estrogen from binding to the receptors.

True, tamoxifen has a very low binding affinity (25 times lower than E2) however tamoxifen is metabolized to hydroxytamoxifen which has an very high affinity for the E2 receptor, this is why you can get nearly total receptor blockage from tamoxifen. (At best most AIs will lower E2 by 50% in males)

Also, Nolvadex exerts its influence primarily in breat tissue, so its estrogen receptor binding effects will will tend to be localized to that area and won't be very pronounced systemically.

Although tamoxifen was "developed" for breast cancer, this does not mean that it magically differentiates between estradiol receptors, this "selective" estrogen receptor modulator is hardly selective.

AI's, on the other hand, will lower estrogen.

2.5mg letro, 1mg adex, 25mg aromasin will all only lower E2 by around half in males, that is still a shitload of estradiol left over. Remember men have a LOT more aromatase than females (well females have ovarian aromatase but that doesn't count because no AI can reach the ovaries).


Nolvadex is not in this class of drugs, though. Nolvadex is best used to treat estrogen-related gyno (I.E. NOT gyno related to Deca or Tren), not to counteract high-estrogen symptoms throughout the whole body.

Excellent point as tamoxifen CAN aggravate prolactin/progesterone related gyno or at least not help it. However tamoxifen does travel systemically and does compete with E2 at all ER's it can reach.

Three things cause acne related to AAS in my experience: DHT, Estradiol, and Progesterone. The OP is probably experiencing DHT, Estradiol or a combo of both. An AI will only partially reduce his E2 levels, I would recommend at least trying Nolvadex also, you guys are giving Hellraiser a hard time and he's right.