Can Any One Here Say that Going Beyond Failure has Actually Helped Him Build More Muscle?

[omoplata]

I am curious about one thing. Even though this discussion has come up before in various forms, I still want to hear your thoughts about this very particular aspect of training.

I have been lifting for a very long time and helped a ton of guys (both enhanced and natural) train. Never have I actually seen a convincing case where going beyond failure has actually helped someone build more muscle. What I mean is that lifting until you cannot do another full rep in OK style is definitely enough to build all the muscle you will ever build (and depending on the weight a nd exercise simply gong to failure can be a pretty hard thing to do). Adding forced reps, doing rest pause to get out a few more reps or continuing to do reps by significantly compromising your form or doing partial reps will just not make someone more muscled or more cut or more defined or improve muscle shape... at all IMO.

What happens is that when people get on a higher AAS dose or really get serious about their diet or improve some other aspect of the package, they also want to be doing more than they have theretofore in the gym and add forced reps etc. Then they of course build more muscle and wrongly attribute this to the "harder training".

I totally accept that I may be wrong. What do you think? Has anyone here personally seen more growth that they can realistically attribute to going beyond failure in theır training?

 

[Dens228]

I don't think there's a realistic way to be sure which is the case. It would be pure opinion.

 

[Gunsmith]

Absolutely , I trained pretty hard from highschool into my mid 20's , starting gear in my early 20's and progress was decent.
When I started DC training i saw a noticable increase in size and strength. Once a start learning more about bodybuilding nutrition they got even better.
I've seen a lot of people make big significant jump in size when moving to a progressive overload training like DC , Fortitude or some of the Meadows programs.

 

[omoplata]

Absolutely , I trained pretty hard from highschool into my mid 20's , starting gear in my early 20's and progress was decent.
When I started DC training i saw a noticable increase in size and strength. Once a start learning more about bodybuilding nutrition they got even better.
I've seen a lot of people make big significant jump in size when moving to a progressive overload training like DC , Fortitude or some of the Meadows programs.

That is an answer that I totally respect -especially coming from you cause I have read your posts for years and know that you are a straight shooter.

 

[fisther69]

Absolutely! But with a huge citation needed!

It can only work if you are only doing 1 body part per day..if you do more you are only neglecting another body part and defeating the purpose entirely.

And when I did it I only did 2 exercises per body part.

Best gains I’ve ever had but it was not sustainable, nor did it work with my long term goals

 

[qbkilla]

I think they work. They are mostly a way to gain effective reps in a shorter time than straight sets. So not "better" but save you time in the gym. That gives benefits..more time for recovery, more time to add volume if needed, IMO easier to focus and keeping intensity up if in and out in 1hr vs 1.5 hr

 

[dantes]

Absolutely! But with a huge citation needed!

It can only work if you are only doing 1 body part per day..if you do more you are only neglecting another body part and defeating the purpose entirely.

And when I did it I only did 2 exercises per body part.

Best gains I’ve ever had but it was not sustainable, nor did it work with my long term goals

So you think your body is absolutely fatigued after 2 working sets of one body part beyond failure? I think you worry far to much about overtraining. Even Dorian hit multiple body parts and his training was incredibly intense

 

[danieltx]

It's hard to get direct, causation-based answer here because the guys who are the most advanced have likely used beyond failure techniques - rest-pause, negatives, assisted reps, etc. - for many years with their training. But that alone should show you that going beyond failure is a key to maximizing your muscle gains.

 

[Massive G]

I am curious about one thing. Even though this discussion has come up before in various forms, I still want to hear your thoughts about this very particular aspect of training.

I have been lifting for a very long time and helped a ton of guys (both enhanced and natural) train. Never have I actually seen a convincing case where going beyond failure has actually helped someone build more muscle. What I mean is that lifting until you cannot do another full rep in OK style is definitely enough to build all the muscle you will ever build (and depending on the weight a nd exercise simply gong to failure can be a pretty hard thing to do). Adding forced reps, doing rest pause to get out a few more reps or continuing to do reps by significantly compromising your form or doing partial reps will just not make someone more muscled or more cut or more defined or improve muscle shape... at all IMO.

What happens is that when people get on a higher AAS dose or really get serious about their diet or improve some other aspect of the package, they also want to be doing more than they have theretofore in the gym and add forced reps etc. Then they of course build more muscle and wrongly attribute this to the "harder training".

I totally accept that I may be wrong. What do you think? Has anyone here personally seen more growth that they can realistically attribute to going beyond failure in theır training?

I think it really depends on how deep you go beyond failure is it every exercise? Or just in a controlled manner to break down tissue?
Also depends on what exercises you do machines or free weights.

 

[fisther69]

So you think your body is absolutely fatigued after 2 working sets of one body part beyond failure? I think you worry far to much about overtraining. Even Dorian hit multiple body parts and his training was incredibly intense

I never said 2 working sets..I said beyond failure..

As far as overtraining? Brother, I lift daily, run daily, swim daily, surf 3x a week, and run, fight, and train for work almost daily..I’ve had rabdo a handful of times…I 100% do not believe overtraining is even legitimately possible in bodybuilding

And don’t use Dorian as an example..nobody here, nor anyone you or I know is dorian

 

[qbkilla]

I never said 2 working sets..I said beyond failure..

As far as overtraining? Brother, I lift daily, run daily, swim daily, surf 3x a week, and run, fight, and train for work almost daily..I’ve had rabdo a handful of times…I 100% do not believe overtraining is even legitimately possible in bodybuilding

And don’t use Dorian as an example..nobody here, nor anyone you or I know is dorian

Agree with the mo overtraining but I do think people can under recover. Meaning.....if on low calories poor sleep....lower volume can lead to better maintenance of muscle than high.

 

[fisther69]

Agree with the mo overtraining but I do think people can under recover. Meaning.....if on low calories poor sleep....lower volume can lead to better maintenance of muscle than high.

No bodybuilder trains hard enough for overtraining..if they get to that point it’s because something they are doing outside the gym is shit

 

[CBglock]

I am wondering about this question too. Best that has worked for me over the years is going to true failure every set; never tried pushing beyond tho. Not even sure what that would look like

 

[fisther69]

I am wondering about this question too. Best that has worked for me over the years is going to true failure every set; never tried pushing beyond tho. Not even sure what that would look like

Forced reps with spotters

 

[MR. BMJ]

I don't look at Rest-Pause as forced reps. My best gains have been when I incorporated D/C r/p or something similar into the plan. I look at a r/p, like actual DC style where you do a set, take breaths, do a set, take breaths, do a final 3rd set.....I look at this as doing 3 sets, not forced reps. The number of guys who have used this approach and gained size is numerous. If this is what the thread question is based around, then YES....many have grown from 'forced reps.' I don't really count the last rep where you fail and then have a spotter assist in the completion as a true forced rep, but if it is, then I am fine with it.

Forced reps to me is when I go to all out failure on my own, then have a spotter help do more....usually squeaking out negatives and such for multiple reps. I guess it would depend on how many, in addition to how many other sets you do like this and how often....then factor in recovery. Can it work? Yes, but is it ideal for everybody....probably not. I feel it's something that could be effective adding in here and there though.

I'm more of a going to failure on my own type of guy, then maybe having a spotter squeak out the last rep or one more.

That's my short answer, a lot can be added though.

 

[Biggerp73]

As others have said it's very hard to quantify. Some studies have been done on failure vs non failure training but none of those studies ever used advanced bodybuilders like we are discussing.

I know that when I was 15 and first started lifting I would take every set to failure and beyond, for at minimum 12-20 sets per body part. And I had great results for a few years training that way.

Then I heard about sub-failure training and switched to that and got some good results at first.

Now I tend to think that it's all tools in the belt, to by cycled in and out of macro cycles and microcycles in your training schedule, not necessarily by a log book, but even just be feel. Most days you go sub failure, but in occasion you throw in some failure, etc.

Personally I would lose strength if I trained too many sets to failure or too often to failure. Not sure if I would necessarily lose muscle but I tend to think my size will follow my strength so I avoid doing anything that causes loss of strength.

 

[alfresco]

I never said 2 working sets..I said beyond failure..

As far as overtraining? Brother, I lift daily, run daily, swim daily, surf 3x a week, and run, fight, and train for work almost daily..I’ve had rabdo a handful of times…I 100% do not believe overtraining is even legitimately possible in bodybuilding

And don’t use Dorian as an example..nobody here, nor anyone you or I know is dorian

Maybe you have never trained hard enough (bodybuilding).

 

[dantes]

Maybe you have never trained hard enough (bodybuilding).

I honestly don’t understand how someone could say overtraining is not possible training like a bodybuilder. The definition of overtraining is training to the extent that it becomes disadvantages which is very possible even if all recovery modalities are perfect

 

[omoplata]

....

Personally I would lose strength if I trained too many sets to failure or too often to failure. Not sure if I would necessarily lose muscle but I tend to think my size will follow my strength so I avoid doing anything that causes loss of strength.

I don't just believe this is the case for me; I know for a fact that this is the case for me personally. I am sure because I kept logs for years and even doing a reasonable amount of sets to failure then taking just 1 or 2 sets of each exercise beyond failure I do lose both strength and size. This happens even when I am resting perfectly well and diet is very well adhered to.

One cannot just say "no bodybuilder trains hard enough to be overtraining". That just is not true for everyone

 

[fisther69]

I honestly don’t understand how someone could say overtraining is not possible training like a bodybuilder. The definition of overtraining is training to the extent that it becomes disadvantages which is very possible even if all recovery modalities are perfect

No, I am not talking about what bodybuilders call overtraining..I’m talking clinical diagnosable overtraining