You didn't answer my original question... I'll lead up to that further in this post.
I'm not certain if you have read any of my responses over the years here in health related threads. A vast majority of my posts are lined around blood work. So you are aware.
I wasn't aware.
I'm working towards my M.S. focused on being a PA (Physician Assistance). So yes, I've reviewed hundreds of lab's, Mike. Even those, including myself that tried grapefruit. With zero results in a hematological change in their hematocrit.
If you read through my previous responses, you will see that I have said--more than once--that it doesn't appear to work for everyone. At the same time, when you see several people experience a significant reduction in hematocrit within 4-8 weeks of supplementation (with no changes in diet or drug program), after dealing with long-term, chronic elevation of hematocrit, it would be foolish to discount the results, especially when clinical studies, observational or not, appear to validate the results.
You see Mike, I don't post on what's the optimal cycle, diet or training program. I'll leave that to you and others more in the know. I mainly come on here to help those interpret their lab's as well offer suggestions on a differential diagnosis, outside of the normal thinking diagnosis to their primary care provider. As you can see in several of my posts.
There are a few members here ( Achilles reborn, Grenada [in which Grenada is a physician, himself], and Jay_Dub's father that have been under the care of one of my previous physician. This same physician has offered me a job on more than one occasion as a consultant with his patients. As well offered me a job post graduate. I still have the emails to validate this. Not that I like the idea of placing a Mod in the spotlight... If you want to ask any of the mods here to verify this, I'll forward these emails to them.
Unnecessary. I usually take what people say at face value.
I really encourage you to read this. As there's not only a diagnosis on my behalf to the member thebigone. I talk about my experience with an elevated HH.
What is going on with my Hemo blood levels!!! bloodtest inside. - Professional Muscle (Bulgarian)
Here's another that may interest you.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...n-levels-blood-what-can-i-do-please-help.html
That single study that gets passed around as the holy grail on a reduction on the mass volume of hematocrit is weak. I'll dissect it one more time so you can understand it's insignificance. Probably won't change your mind, that's fine.
For one, it's an
observational study and the only one of it's kind. Show me a follow-up on this in a Randomized controlled clinical trial or a Randomized crossover ClinicalTrial. Not sure if you're aware that an observational study, cohort studies do not provide empirical evidence that is as strong as that provided by properly executed randomized controlled clinical trials. Observation studies can be very bias, as it's not controlled.
Yes, I am aware of the difference, but these studies should not be tossed in the trash just because they're observational. Even in your case, you did not automatically discount it, but tested grapefruit on yourself before coming to a conclusion. In other words, it was your own personal experience that formed your opinion regarding the legitimacy of these study results--not the study itself.
It is the same with myself. After reading the study, I soon after started testing it out on clients, to see if I could duplicate these results in the real world. Being that the medicine was nothing but fruit, a failure to produce results would be the only side effect encountered. So, I started testing it out at either 1 grapefruit or 6-8 ounces of grapefruit juice daily. The first 2 people to try it, all of whom were experiencing elevated hematocrit over a prolonged period of time, went back down into the normal range after about 4-8 weeks. The 3rd time was also a success, which was followed by a few failures. I have had a couple more people try it with success since then, including myself, but there have also been some failures, in which I couldn't really tell if it was doing anything. The changes were so small that they could not be considered.
However, when someone is experiencing chronically elevated hematocit for long periods of time and it goes down by 6 points in 8 weeks, with no change to their proghram, how can one just discount those results? The first guy I know who tried this, whose hematocrit went down 6 points, confirmed his test results a few weeks later with additional bloodowork, at which point it was still down 5.5 points--nearly the same. These readings were in stark contrast to other every reading he obtained previously.
That study is weak, at best.
Maybe so, but none the less, it doesn't mean the results are without merit.
Most observational studies are based on a hypothesis. Are you familiar with study designs? I am.
Yes, I am.
It was published in 1988 (26 years ago) and the lead researcher Dr. R. C. Robbins PhD wasn't very descriptive of his findings. Other than naringin's action to entice the signalling transcriptions of phagocytes on red blood cells. Phagocytosis can can come from several different physiological reactions. Are you aware of this, I am. Dr. Robbins uses the words
Those with without definition of how many. I can describe two people as
those. Nor is there a quantitative measure per individual on the hematological changes in hCT over the course of the study.
There is not one description of the cause of these individuals elevated hCT. Not one. You know what happens when one becomes dehydrated and see where your hCT climbs too. Go play on a mountain top for several weeks and see how much hCT climbs. The induction of hypoxia will cause a significant rise in hCT. Pulmonary fibrosis and right side heart failure from Cor pulmonale can cause one's hCT to be elevated. Smoking, excessive ephedrine usage, hGH therapy, ect, ect.... So, what was the pathophysiological cause of these individuals to be in an acute or chronic state of erythropoiesis? All of this is very relevant. Very relevant.
You're right, but again, it doesn't mean the results aren't valid--it just means there are unanswered questions. The following is a partial cut & paste from the study...
"The hematocrits ranged from 36.5 to 55.8% at the start and 38.8% to 49.2% at the end of the study. There was a differential effect on the hematocrit. The largest decreases occurred at the highest hematocrits and the effect decreased on the intermediate hematocrits; however, the low hematocrits increased That is a pretty significant difference.
Plus Mike, there is a variable degree of fluctuations with our HH. This changes hourly and daily. Hydration status is the biggest influence on this.
I am aware.
Buy a hemoglobinometer and try with and without grapefruit. I've seen it first hand at my previous physicians office when I tried the grapefruit hypothesis on myself.
If you believe it works, use it. I personally have seen first hand it doesn't work.
...and I have seen the opposite. I guess both of our opinions originate from personal experience. The only difference being that mine is more aligned with the aformentioned study results.
Believe me, I get what you are saying about the flaws in the study--too many unknowns. This makes it impossible to come to any definite conclusions based on the study alone. That's why we experiment on ourselves and others--to try and get some answers. At this point, we are not the only ones who have formed differing opinions on this subject. There are other people on the boards who have adopted both of our viewpoints as a result of their own labwork results.
A quick Google on other BB sites, others experience the same as I. Oh, I'm sure there's others that say the opposite as it worked for them.
Planning a cycle on TRT worried about Hematocrit
Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and high hematocrit
I highly recommend not dumping once a month. That's actually foolish to even suggest it.
Like I said previously, I don't recommend it either specifically because of the risk of iron deficiency. Could this problem be prevented/corrected with supplementation? Sure, but why take it that far when it is very rarely needed? I have only recommended it a few times to people whose hematocrit was still elevated after the first donation, but I have never recommended it as an ongoing practice.
Unless you are under the care of a physician. Become iron deficient and you increase the chances of cardiomyopathy amongst several other etiologies associated with Fe deficiency. Wouldn't it be a much wiser idea to place focus on the cause of a secondary elevation of hCT adjacent to AAS?
Yes, which is why I said I usually recommend other methods of regulating hematocrit in conjunctioin with donations every other month, when necessary. Perhaps you didn't read my full post about this.
Naringin has a regulatory effect on hematological function? Can you provide evidence for this, other than this single study on naringin effect
phagocytes signalling.
Just that study, along with anecdotal evidence. However, I will ask you the same thing. Do you have any studies which contradict this one, or does your opinion hinge solely on anecdotal evidence and arguments of poor study design?
Sorry to hear about your wife, what type of hemochromatosis was your wife diagnosed with?
Thanks. I don't know yet--the Doc left a message on her phone the other day and did not specificy, but scheduled her to come back in this week.
We can agree to disagree Mike.
I could go on and on, as I'm sure you can. Ultimately, I have more important things to do.