What is going on with my Hemo blood levels!!! bloodtest inside.

[Thebigone]

I've been on gear for about 8years now(im 32yrs old). I'd say the past 5 ive stayed on 400-500mg test and just added something here and there. Maybe only 3-4 bigger cycles but I prefer to stay on a base of test like that and maybe add some var or primo,etc.. Anyway i've always donated blood to keep hemo levels down and my levels were always around 17'ish when donating.

The past year ive only been on around 250mg test out of nowhere my levels have been higher than ever. Ive been denied so many times for being over I finally had to go to a hematologist for a script. I couldnt tell him im on test so I played dumb and he ran a bunch of bloodwork on me and said im fine so he gave me a script to donate every 2weeks until I can get my hemoglobin levels to around the 15'ish range. So I go in the first time and they are at 20. I donate. 2weeks later they are at 19, 2 weeks later they are at 18.2 so im thinking ok finally everything is going well. But then, 2weeks later they are 18.3 and now another 2weeks today and they were 18.4 So it seems like im stuck in the 18's. Below is some blood work I got done about 4days after the last draw. As you can see they are 16.7 so it seems like within 7-10days they skyrocket right back up to 18 for when I go to donate.

After my first draw I added some primo b/c I figured primo wouldnt mess with hemo levels too much. I just can figure out how i've given 500ml blood 5 times in the past 10weeks and still my levels wont go below 18.

right now this is what im currently on
200-250mg test
400mg primo
100mg mastE
25mg Proviron
gh/peptides

that is a tiny little cycle and should be effecting me at all. Years ago I could be on 500mg test and my level would still be in the 17's after months of not donating. I just dont get it. Should I have 500ml draw every week instead of 2weeks or what? Seems like a lot. I know a lot of people with high hemo levels have to end up donating few times to get levels down and they go to 2 diff blood banks and donate every month to stay healthy so that was my goal but I cant even get my levels down donating every 2weeks.

attached is recent blood work. Cholesterol is off a little. I need to up fish oil from 6g to 9g. Liver enzymes are high b/c I take depakote so im not sure what I can do about that other than avoid orals. I take liv 52 double strength. May have to add some milk thistle too.

 

[Cerberus777]

Are you sure your primo is primo? Your potassium is high, are you hydrated enough?

 

[Big D84]

Are you sure your primo is primo? Your potassium is high, are you hydrated enough?

^^^ Makes sense; most primo is substituted with EQ. We all know what EQ does to bloods

 

[Stewie]

I, like you had the same problem for years until I was diagnosed with OSA (Sleep Apnea). I was dumping twice a month for almost a year. I would suggest you look into having a sleep study done. Sooner than later. The more severe the apnea, the higher your HH will climb. As of now you are building a new threshold for your HH to stay at a constant level. By doing weekly or bi weekly phlebotomies, you are essentially telling your body to maintain a constant level of HH. This is where it is important too address the underlying cause.

With each phlebotomy, we generally lose approximately 250mg of iron too 500ml of blood loss. For the most part, we hold anywhere from 3-6 grams of iron, keep in mind you do back to back phlebotomies, you're going to tank your iron levels quickly. Setting the stage for anemia. That you don't want.

Also other factors that can have an effect on hemoglobin.

Chronic sinus congestion, which leads to habitual mouth breathing reducing O2 intake. Hypoxic Hypoxia.

If you're taking a multi vitamin with iron in it, this will also give a transient rise in hemoglobin levels. Supplements that aid in the absorption of iron such as Vitamin C and Alpha-GPC ( which aids in the absorption of non heme iron). Look at everything you're taking to see if this may attribute too an increase in iron uptake.

 

[Stewie]

Are you sure your primo is primo? Your potassium is high, are you hydrated enough?

He may of been clinching his fist or the phlebotomist may of tightened the tourniquet to tightly, releasing potassium in the blood too the collection tube. Or it may be from an ACE inhibitor, if he's taking one. As well as a few other causes.

 

[Thebigone]

Are you sure your primo is primo? Your potassium is high, are you hydrated enough?

Yes 100% human grade. I feel like im hydrated but maybe I need more water. That day I had to fast for that blood test so I may have not drank much since I didnt eat.

 

[Thebigone]

Stewie, I do have sleep apnea. Around 4years ago I had a sleep study done and the dr said I was one of the worst he has seen. I tired the Cpap and couldnt do it. No way I could sleep like that. Then I had a dental guard made that keeps your lower mandible pulled forward and went back and the apena was pretty much gone. Lately though ive been snoring much more than usual. Maybe I need to go back and get another study done to make sure my apena is still under control. Im about to get a new life insurance policy so I better get that first before getting the study and have on file that I have the condition presently.

As for Iron for years i've avoided a multi with iron. Also my whey protein i was getting about 50% daily iron from it and had no idea it even had iron in it. I switched to a whey with no iron around a month ago hoping that alone would have fixed it but it did nothing. My last bloodwork maybe a year ago my bloodwork was in range but much higher. Now after giving all this blood my iron is still in range but as you can see its on the lower end. Thats odd b/c how the heck can my iron be low but my hemo be on the high end. Come to think about it I remember making a thread here a long time ago about how my iron was low for a while yet hemo was still high
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...orum/69290-low-iron-high-rbcs-hematocrit.html

also not sure if this relates at all but my bp is decent. usually around 130's/70's

 

[Stewie]

Stewie, I do have sleep apnea. Around 4years ago I had a sleep study done and the dr said I was one of the worst he has seen. I tired the Cpap and couldnt do it. No way I could sleep like that. Then I had a dental guard made that keeps your lower mandible pulled forward and went back and the apena was pretty much gone. Lately though ive been snoring much more than usual. Maybe I need to go back and get another study done to make sure my apena is still under control. Im about to get a new life insurance policy so I better get that first before getting the study and have on file that I have the condition presently.

As for Iron for years i've avoided a multi with iron. Also my whey protein i was getting about 50% daily iron from it and had no idea it even had iron in it. I switched to a whey with no iron around a month ago hoping that alone would have fixed it but it did nothing. My last bloodwork maybe a year ago my bloodwork was in range but much higher. Now after giving all this blood my iron is still in range but as you can see its on the lower end. Thats odd b/c how the heck can my iron be low but my hemo be on the high end. Come to think about it I remember making a thread here a long time ago about how my iron was low for a while yet hemo was still high
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...orum/69290-low-iron-high-rbcs-hematocrit.html
also not sure if this relates at all but my bp is decent. usually around 130's/70's

Try not to confuse Iron and Hemoglobin as the same thing. Iron is one of many building blocks of hemoglobin. Without the use of any AAS or an underlying cause, if one became iron anemic, their iron would be low, as well as their hemoglobin.

Now if we create a stimulus with the production of EPO (Erythropoietin) by the means of AAS or oxygen deprivation (sleep apnea) or the worst case scenario pulmonary or heart disease our hemoglobin will rise independent of where our Iron levels are. So, with that said. One can be iron anemic and yet have an elevated hemoglobin, caused by the stimulation of EPO.

I would strongly suggest you do go in for a follow up with your Pulmonoligist or PCP too look into another sleep study.

Don't be afraid of of the mask, be one with the mask. Your body as a whole will thank you.

 

[DoubleD82]

I have a similar situation and I'm going to post some blood work in about 6 weeks when I go to the doc. He tells me to donate a pint every 2 or 3 months. I am only on test so I don't have to as much but if I we're to start deca I was told by the doc I would need to donate every few weeks or once a months. I'm looking at doing a test + EQ blast over the winter and wondering how drastically that will change blood work from what it is now.

 

[Thebigone]

Try not to confuse Iron and Hemoglobin as the same thing. Iron is one of many building blocks of hemoglobin. Without the use of any AAS or an underlying cause, if one became iron anemic, their iron would be low, as well as their hemoglobin.

Now if we create a stimulus with the production of EPO (Erythropoietin) by the means of AAS or oxygen deprivation (sleep apnea) or the worst case scenario pulmonary or heart disease our hemoglobin will rise independent of where our Iron levels are. So, with that said. One can be iron anemic and yet have an elevated hemoglobin, caused by the stimulation of EPO.

I would strongly suggest you do go in for a follow up with your Pulmonoligist or PCP too look into another sleep study.

Don't be afraid of of the mask, be one with the mask. Your body as a whole will thank you.

thanks man. I'll get the test done sometime in Oct. In the meantime do you think I should keep donating every 2weeks if my hemo is just gonna stay in the low 18's. It costs $80 to do it each time. And if I keep doing it can I become anemic. Before I started my hemo was at 20 so thats the highest it will stay I believe. Any good supps that can lower levels?

And lastly will anavar raise levels even more b/c I planned on adding to my low dose test/primo cycle soon.

 

[Stewie]

A few things to keep in mind. Hemoglobin has a variable degree of rise and fall throughout the day. In which is generally higher in the morning and lower later in the day, dependent of hydration levels. Hydration reduces the concentration of blood, so if you go in for your routine phlebotomy first thing in the morning, chances are you're mildly dehydrated, if not very dehydrated. In a hypothetical sense we could assume your hemoglobin at the blood bank is 18.6 gm/dl with a finger prick. If you came back later in the day very hydrated your hemoglobin may be 16 gm/dl +/-.

Another thing to keep in mind, with a finger prick, there will be a variance in the reading from an actual vein puncture draw and a finger prick. I've noticed that a finger prick will show a higher reading than a vein puncture. I'm not sure if this is due to the calibration of the in office meter too thelab analysis, or that during a finger prick, that once the blood is exposed to the air, this reduces the concentration, and shows an artificial hemoglobin fraction. Personally, I've noticed a .3-.5 higher value on a finger prick, at the same time I've had labs done. This small amount, can make a difference in the determination if one chooses to dump. Considering the range is for most labs very tight in the measurement of hemoglobin. 13.8 to 17.2 gm/dL.

Try to incorporate more fruits and vegetables throughout the day too aid in hydration.

I would believe any compound you throw in the mix will increase your HH. How much. I Douno? For the sake of longevity. Get your sleep apnea under control

Also, if there is concern that iron anemia is a probability. (More than likely you're on the brink of) I would incorporate iron rich foods such as liver, oysters and black strap molasses. This should help slowly build your iron levels up, with a minimal impact on your hemoglobin. Yes, it will aid in the concentration of heme. Yet not the same as supplementing with element iron (ferrous sulfate). In other words, you won't or shouldn't have the immediate rise in hemoglobin.

There's other micro nutrients that aid in the absorption of iron such as vitamin C, copper, iodine and a few others. Consider getting a multi vitamin with these in it.

 

[Thebigone]

^^^ Thanks. I think next blood test, the day before the test im going to get blood actually drawn to get hemo levels and then the next day i'll go in for the donation and compare. I'll go in at similar times of the day as well.

Also yes im thinking maybe my iron may be lower now that im donating every 2weeks. I used to use a microfiltration whey isolate what had 8% iron per scoop and I usually have about 6 scoops per day. I recently switched it to a cold filtration whey isolate which has no iron. Maybe I should go back?

Im a bit confused on how adding iron rich foods will not raise my HH but adding an iron supplement will? Thanks

I could also shoot some B12 if that would help.

 

[brutale]

I've noticed my hematocrit climbed much faster on a light cruise of 300mg of test cyp a week than it did when I was taking well over a gram divided among test, deca, and masteron. Or when tren was in the mix.

My takeaway is that this stuff is pretty unpredictable.

 

[Stewie]

Im a bit confused on how adding iron rich foods will not raise my HH but adding an iron supplement will? Thanks

I could also shoot some B12 if that would help.

Hey bigone, good to see you are staying on top of this

The difference between supplementing with element iron [ferrous sulfate or similar] the rise in both hemoglobin and iron will be immediate on a set of labs. If you supplement with iron within a certain time frame to your labs. In other words, if you took 325 mg of ferrous sulfate with some vitamin C at 7am. You went in for either a lab draw or a phlebotomy, your hemoglobin will show a normal-high to high value. As there is now more circulating iron in your blood. Couple that with your sleep apnea, your HH [hemoglobin/hematocrit] will be off the charts. On your labs, your iron levels will be falsely within range, as once again, this will be attributed to supplemental iron. It's recommended that one should stop taking iron supplements 3-5 days prior to labs, if an iron panel is being pulled.

With incorporating iron enriched foods the mg of iron is quit a bit lower than supplemental iron. The increase in hemoglobin levels will be factored by several things. Although the rise in your hemoglobin will be significantly less than supplemental iron. One being how well you are absorbing the iron from the foods you are consuming. Certain conditions can also limit iron absorption. This can happen as a result of insufficient stomach acid, lack of intrinsic factor, which is a hormone needed to absorb vitamin B12, although supplementing with B12 will also raise your RBC's, therefore raising your hemoglobin. Again, this is not what you're after. Unless you are B12 deficient.

Here's a thread I replied in awhile back about iron. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...n-levels-blood-what-can-i-do-please-help.html

 

[Thebigone]

Thanks Stewie.

Update: Had my sleep study done and I have no sleep apnea. Well, I still have it if I dont use my mouth guard but I always sleep with my mouth guard and did so during the study and they said I only had 3 episodes which is very good b/c normal is 0-6. So now that thats solved I was puzzled what in the heck could be the culprit. BUT.... today I went to donate again(2week mark) and FINALLY its 16.5 I was stuck in the low 18's the past 3 times and it wasnt budging but today it was 16.5 I was trying to think if I did anything diff and the only thing that changed was during last weeks shot of 200mg testE/100mg MastE I dropped the mastE but I highly doubt only one week being off it did anything.

So in 2weeks im going back again and we'll see whats up. Maybe it just took several times of recycling the old blood. The nurse at the blood bank who always draws me said she can tell my blood looks diff. Before she said it was much darker and thicker and now it appears lighter and less thick.

 

[Thebigone]

Another update:

Ok so I had another comprehensive wellness profile done about a month later from the first one. My concern was I didnt want my iron getting too low. I was supposed to donate this past friday but I held off until I got my results back.

first off my hemoglobin was 15.8 and hematocrit was 47 so im glad I didnt donate. Esp b/c my iron was 43 and the range is 40-155 so that would have put my iron low. So I guess i'll wait another 2weeks and just donate then. maybe start donating monthly now instead of bi-weekly and get an iron test done afterwards to make sure my iron isnt too low. I feel like being on the low end now isnt good though. I've been feeling more sore and tired lately.

Also what is alkaline phosphatase? On 9/12 my alkaline phosphatase was 40 and range was 44-102 and now its 34 so its even lower.

 

[Stewie]

Your low alkaline phosphatase can be associated with a few things. Anemia within it self can shift (use more than normal) the ion exchange of magnesium. Like iron (which you're deficient in), magnesium is a metalloenzyme, when there is an upset, imbalance or deficiency of a mineral(s) the liver and other tissue will try and regain balance by using more of the abundant mineral(s), that now may cause a secondary deficiency.

When this cascade of events occurs, usually and unfortunately our hormones now become less than optimal. This is well known in hypothyroidism.

So, alkaline phosphatase is a non-specific metalloenzyme which hydrolyzes many types of phosphate esters at an alkaline pH in the presence of zinc and magnesium ions. In other words alkaline phosphatase is non-specific on a blood test, it's an indication(s) of one or several conditions or diseases, when it's out of range on a set of labs.

My guess is you're magnesium deficient either from lack of magnesium intake or secondary to you being mildly anemic. And, my guess is this is the cause of your low Alk phos.

Personally I would hold off as long as you can on doing any more phlebotomies (blood lettings). You'll bottom out what litte iron you have now.

I would incorporate in your diet black strap molasses, oysters and liver a few times a week. This will help build your iron levels back up, without raising your hemoglobin rapidly like supplemental iron would. To aid in the absorbtion take in some Vitamin C enriched foods or 500 mg of Vitamin C with your meals.

 

[Thebigone]

Thanks Stewie. The rest of my labs including thyroid function were all in range. I think in another few weeks i'll get another full panel test done again to see if there are any improvements. Whats also weird is around a month ago when my hemoglobin was 16.7 and just recently it was 15.8 my hematocrit stayed at 47 both times. Its been 18days since my last phlebotomy and im already feeling better with more energy,etc.. so im definitely waiting and I will add a few more iron rich foods in my diet.

 

[demon]

just skimmed through the thread

@thebigone what do u credit in the drop of your hemoglobin?

 

[Thebigone]

^^^ Definitely the phlebotomy every 2weeks over the past few months but at the same time it has decreased my iron too low so you have to watch for that.