Evaluating Safer Use Models

[Oldwhitedude]

I hadn't seen this discussed much in the archives so I figured I'd throw it out there for opinions.

The main difference that I can tell seems to be in the use of anti estrogens where:

1) AIs are traditionally used on an as needed basis.

2) Safer use models avoid AIs by using minimal test doses and ramping up the anabolics, usually from DHTs.

There are claims of other differences but I feel those are mostly strawmans.

The purpose of the safer use model is apparently to provide a safer overall drug with the caveat that you're probably not going to grow as fast.

An example safer model cycle might be something like. Low dosing the lot:

1) As much test as the individual can handle without an AI. Let's say 300mg.
2) Additional DHT to bring up anabolic load.
3) Maybe nandrolone for joint support
4) GH & Slin
5) ARBs for various benefits
6) Clen or Tren for the anti catabolic effects
7) Various insulin sensitivity promoters

I think the additional stuff is mostly just good practice if you need it, so my question to you Promuscle centers around the main difference which seems to be in AI usage.

If safety is the number one concern (but you're still looking to pump it a little) is it better to use an AI or stack a bunch of primo or masteron to bring up total anabolics?

Pretty sure no one is gonna read past the first sentence so boobies boobies boobies

 

[luki7788]

the whole idea of "safer cycles" is worth shit - no one will convince me that it's better to use a ton of dht derivatives to avoid IA which, in fact, even their opponents can't explain what they do so badly that dht derivatives don't do

I'm sorry, but I prefer to use a large dose of a bioidentical hormone such as the test and use the necessary dose of IA than to use 2g of dht derivatives lol

 

[btails]

I'm with luki on this one. I don't understand the whole premise of any of the points 1-7 you wrote.

I sure af wouldn't be concerned about running high dosage test and an ai when you're talking about using tren and clen and calling it a safer model for usage lol.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

I'm with luki on this one. I don't understand the whole premise of any of the points 1-7 you wrote.

I sure af wouldn't be concerned about running high dosage test and an ai when you're talking about using tren and clen and calling it a safer model for usage lol.

Just to be clear I'm just curious here, I don't do this stuff. Just opening this up for discussion.

But I think the main premise is that they really don't like AIs.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

the whole idea of "safer cycles" is worth shit - no one will convince me that it's better to use a ton of dht derivatives to avoid IA which, in fact, even their opponents can't explain what they do so badly that dht derivatives don't do

I'm sorry, but I prefer to use a large dose of a bioidentical hormone such as the test and use the necessary dose of IA than to use 2g of dht derivatives lol

So I think the basic idea is that DHT derivates allow the user to run their estrogen higher and their opinion is that higher estrogen is both cardioprotective and hypertrophic.

But I'm not sure and this is what I don't understand about the safer use guys which is why I'm asking, surely using AIs to keep estrogen at a safe level isn't harmful right? Crashing estrogen of course is bad but using it intelligently to keep estrogen at a good level would seem sensible.

But they seem to equate any AI use with bad outcomes.

 

[Poonami]

the whole idea of "safer cycles" is worth shit - no one will convince me that it's better to use a ton of dht derivatives to avoid IA which, in fact, even their opponents can't explain what they do so badly that dht derivatives don't do

I'm sorry, but I prefer to use a large dose of a bioidentical hormone such as the test and use the necessary dose of IA than to use 2g of dht derivatives lol

I believe AIs cause brittle bones in old age in many. That’s why I try and avoid them. Not to mention I don’t fully trust pharmaceutical companies. Especially ones designing drugs for women that are used off label in men. Nolvadex being the one exception but I still try and limit that too.

i mean, it’s just common sense that the less weird drugs we use designed for women and cancer… the better off we’re gonna be when we get old. And personally, I don’t want major health problems and soft ass bones when I’m older. I actually care how I age.

I also realize this is probably not a popular opinion on here as most members care more about looking badass and cool in their younger years, future health be damned. Now flame away lol

 

[bbxtreme]

I feel like I just read a VB article. The best part was the “boobies” part.

Everything is great in “theory”, but this is bodybuilding where we have to go off experience IMO.

I’ve said this before on here- there’s a reason Masteron and Primo aren’t indicated for AI use, but Aromosin is.

We all want to pretend there is a magical way to make this sport “healthy”, but let’s not kid ourselves.

Bodybuilders use insulin to force more food, tell themselves ARB’s are preventative medications (this is almost an oxymoron), and now that you can use gear to offset estrogen from all the other gear you’re running.

I believe there is a “responsible” way to do this, thus I started a whole thread on it. But that does not mean it’s “healthy” IMO.

 

[need4tren]

I can only pitch in with my personal experience, I used to take a ais and my hdl was so low it wouldn’t even show up on a test, I haven’t touched ai in 3 years and just run a couple 100mg of mast, 3-400 usually and I can run easily 1500mg of test without any issues, my hdl and ldl are fine, ldl is nice and low

 

[Zamun]

My body won’t even let me try a safer use method. If I ran 400-500 primo I’d need 2 grams of test. Strong AI for me.

 

[Kaladryn]

You can easily make AAS use relatively "safe" and get all the results most non-competitors would want. Example: Normalize/resensitize the body with 10mg/day test for longish periods. Dial in diet and training. Double that dose until results stabilize, increase it again until results stabilize, increase it again until results stabilize. Return to 10mg/day for longish periods. Be on point with diet and training consistently. Avoid anti-E drugs. Do bloodwork. Get heartscans and echo. Don't mess with testosterone analogues. Stay away from fat burners. Don't do "static" moderate dose cycles without normalization (ie 300mg/week year round, etc).

You can also compete at the "local" level with good results on a program like this if you have decent genetics.

Of course this doesn't apply to real competitive bodybuilding. But for what most people actually seem to want, it's more than enough, they are usually being limited by training/diet if it isn't.

 

[Kaladryn]

My body won’t even let me try a safer use method. If I ran 400-500 primo I’d need 2 grams of test. Strong AI for me.

You just need to normalize with actually physiological doses (and no 200mg/week isn't physiological). Hormone level biochemistry is shockingly similar between individuals.

Ok that is all the time I have for PM this week. I hope all the cool people on here are doing well!

 

[KillerStack]

I read "safer use models" and I get a bit sick because of the unfathomable jackass that is Victor Black. Has anyone seen a more repellent personality on the whole internet? LOL. What is his problem?

He keeps a pestering a very nice mod here because professionalmuscle didn't give him his own section where only he could answer questions LOL. "Forums don't work because people keep interfering." Our mod just keeps being nice to him despite VB not deserving it, but that's just my opinion, not a slight at the mod.

He's alienated every single person in these spaces. Now the latest victim is Scott Stevenson, who everyone speaks well of, who said, paraphrased, "I don't know the details of the Black models but I'm glad there are alternatives" Lol I loved that comment but VB took it as an affront.

There's plenty of problems and things to discuss about his "models" (rules) but the fella maybe should be shunned instead? Because why should he be promoted/discussed when he can't behave at all like a normal person? I don't know.

Actually, it's not that serious but I just had to say this Lol. In a way it"s fascinating. I can't look away, I read his IG posts for the latest fuckery.

 

[bbxtreme]

I read "safer use models" and I get a bit sick because of the unfathomable jackass that is Victor Black. Has anyone seen a more repellent personality on the whole internet? LOL. What is his problem?

He keeps a pestering a very nice mod here because professionalmuscle didn't give him his own section where only he could answer questions LOL. "Forums don't work because people keep interfering." Our mod just keeps being nice to him despite VB not deserving it, but that's just my opinion, not a slight at the mod.

He's alienated every single person in these spaces. Now the latest victim is Scott Stevenson, who everyone speaks well of, who said, paraphrased, "I don't know the details of the Black models but I'm glad there are alternatives" Lol I loved that comment but VB took it as an affront.

There's plenty of problems and things to discuss about his "models" (rules) but the fella maybe should be shunned instead? Because why should he be promoted/discussed when he can't behave at all like a normal person? I don't know.

Actually, it's not that serious but I just had to say this Lol. In a way it"s fascinating. I can't look away, I read his IG posts for the latest fuckery.

I think we could take a very quick poll on here to find out how many people DON’T want that on PM.

 

[Testosteroni]

You can easily make AAS use relatively "safe" and get all the results most non-competitors would want. Example: Normalize/resensitize the body with 10mg/day test for longish periods. Dial in diet and training. Double that dose until results stabilize, increase it again until results stabilize, increase it again until results stabilize. Return to 10mg/day for longish periods. Be on point with diet and training consistently. Avoid anti-E drugs. Do bloodwork. Get heartscans and echo. Don't mess with testosterone analogues. Stay away from fat burners. Don't do "static" moderate dose cycles without normalization (ie 300mg/week year round, etc).

You can also compete at the "local" level with good results on a program like this if you have decent genetics.

Of course this doesn't apply to real competitive bodybuilding. But for what most people actually seem to want, it's more than enough, they are usually being limited by training/diet if it isn't.

Could the 10mg/day protocol be used with test prop to stabilize? Would there be any significant difference from using test e/c?

 

[qbkilla]

I believe AIs cause brittle bones in old age in many. That’s why I try and avoid them. Not to mention I don’t fully trust pharmaceutical companies. Especially ones designing drugs for women that are used off label in men. Nolvadex being the one exception but I still try and limit that too.

i mean, it’s just common sense that the less weird drugs we use designed for women and cancer… the better off we’re gonna be when we get old. And personally, I don’t want major health problems and soft ass bones when I’m older. I actually care how I age.

I also realize this is probably not a popular opinion on here as most members care more about looking badass and cool in their younger years, future health be damned. Now flame away lol

Agree with this. Even when I used way more than I should in my younger years never needed an AI. Another board I was on they were obsessed with ai and "dialing in" tons of guys posting " help I crashed my estrogen." Most people online I've seen say they need an AI for their little trt dose also think 13-15% is lean LMAO. I'm no expert but I'd guess if they lowered the BF and ate right estrogen wouldn't be as much of an issue. That's assuming they actually need an AI, even at that bf, and just aren't using an AI to "dial in"... their term.

 

[KillerStack]

I think we could take a very quick poll on here to find out how many people DON’T want that on PM.

He has "identified certain things" that are good and correct as Rex Feral said but he just has to be a colossal jackass about it. How can a person not understand that you cannot insist on talking about steroid risks on mental health just after their friend suicided? I'm referring to the Luke Sandoe situation. You don't do that unless something is very wrong with you.

 

[Testosteroni]

Agree with this. Even when I used way more than I should in my younger years never needed an AI. Another board I was on they were obsessed with ai and "dialing in" tons of guys posting " help I crashed my estrogen." Most people online I've seen say they need an AI for their little trt dose also think 13-15% is lean LMAO. I'm no expert but I'd guess if they lowered the BF and ate right estrogen wouldn't be as much of an issue. That's assuming they actually need an AI, even at that bf, and just aren't using an AI to "dial in"... their term.

It would make sense as to why someone at 13-15% bf would need an AI as more body fat seems to make one more susceptible to e2 issues. Would it make sense for someone to diet down to a truly lean state on trt dose before using higher doses of “wet” compounds?

Granted cutting on lower dose vs higher dose isn’t as fun and you’ll most likely will be flat and retain less muscle, but I think it would be worth it long term. Once they reach 6-8% bf they are in a much better state to gain significant lbm staying lean with less e2 issues.

 

[Mufasa123]

I use Aromasin as needed. Not looking for rock bottom E2 but keeping it out of the huge range. Never on a single blood test at any dose has it moved my HDL even a point. Zero correlation.

On the other side 600mg of primo hits my HDL nearly as much 350mg of Tren A on top of 350mg of Winstrol (2 tests I did within 5-10pts). Take a guess which option is more effective or can more quickly get me to my goal. Masteron hits it some too but I only run 200-400 max and generally for feels as I think it's the very weakest of all peds and next to worthless outside of aethetics and feel (for that it's great though).

Now test and deca don't move anything on my bloods even up to combined 750 test and 600 deca. A tad of Aromasin on that again moves nothing. I can also run 400 Mast without too bad a hit. Oh yeah, let me say bigger test and deca monkey hammer primo, Mast, or whatever bullshit DHT someone wants to throw all while not touching my bloods.

Nothing against DHTs and their known contribution to E2 management (I do use them and enjoy them!) but this whole idea of them being safer seems bullshit or at least wild opinion mostly not backed by any science (certainly 15 years of my blood tests contradict it). What is not bullshit is that they do hit bloods and are unequivocally less effective for building muscle (regardless of what someone may say without any basis for their argument).

 

[bbxtreme]

He has "identified certain things" that are good and correct as Rex Feral said but he just has to be a colossal jackass about it. How can a person not understand that you cannot insist on talking about steroid risks on mental health just after their friend suicided? I'm referring to the Luke Sandoe situation. You don't do that unless something is very wrong with you.

That’s being generous IMO. I think the guy needs to go be the voice over for Dracula.

I respect the hell out of guys like Dr. Scott and John Jewett because they lead with studies and research when proposing new hypotheses and theories. And they’re humble.

But to each their own.

 

[KillerStack]

That’s being generous IMO. I think the guy needs to go be the voice over for Dracula.

I respect the hell out of guys like Dr. Scott and John Jewett because they lead with studies and research when proposing new hypotheses and theories. And they’re humble.

But to each their own.

Even though I dislike VB I have given him credit for spawning a whole slew of "coaches" who ripped off his ideas with no attribution. Jewett did credit VB because from what I've seen ALL his PED advice came from VB. Most don't manage to create any ideas of their own. No new angles of how to look at things. Of course it's hard to create something truly new as everything has been done or thought about before but I think some manage to give some ideas a personal touch and when it happens it's great.